UK Politics: This Country is Going to the Moggs

[HexMachina]

21 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Bollocks to that. He is a traitor and a menace. The British people will not stand for his bullshit, as demonstrated by the crowd at the Oval yesterday.

You've a higher opinion of the British voters than I do. I hope what you say is true but I've learned to have low expectations to avoid disappointment

[BigFatCoward]

13 hours ago, mormont said:

 

I'm more interested in why people feel the need to try to justify the lower salary in the first place. Is it because entertainment is an area that is famous for treating women well and paying them equally? No, the reverse is true. So why the urge to defend this?

 

I'd feel the same if it was, for arguments sake, Bill Bailey (someone I feel has a similar level of competence and celebrity).  The issue is suggesting Sandy Toksvig (or anyone of either sex at her level) deserves the same as Stephen Fry, which to me is absolutely absurd. 

Anyway I should have started another thread about this rather than derailing the politics thread. 

[mormont]

9 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I'd feel the same if it was, for arguments sake, Bill Bailey (someone I feel has a similar level of competence and celebrity).

Well, you wouldn't, because even if Bill Bailey were paid at that level (and obviously I don't think that's likely), there would be no reason to think gender played a part, so you wouldn't need to rush in to explain why gender didn't play a part. 

9 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Anyway I should have started another thread about this rather than derailing the politics thread. 

Nah. If pay equality isn't a political issue, what is? And the issue came up at a party conference. This is absolutely the right thread. 

[john]

If you’re trying to find a replacement for Stephen Fry - cerebral comedian, long history in British show business, bit posh - then it’s hard to think of a better pick than Toksvig.  She’s not quite got Fry’s national treasure status but then who has?  Just pay her the same, the money was clearly available cos they’d just been paying it to Fry.  

If someone comes in to run a company you don’t expect to pay them a fraction of the last guy’s salary. It’s the same job, the same amount of responsibility. Yes, you pay what you can get away with, but 40% seems a bit absurd.

I’m interested in who people think has a similar status to Stephen Fry in British show business? There’s not many choices, especially if you’re looking for someone with comedy and presenting experience.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Although, I really didn't want to comment on the issue, because I really have no dog in this fight.

But I have to admit I never heard of Toksvig before I read the headline about her getting paid less than Stephen Fry, due to gender inequality. Which quite frankly surprised me, as (like I said) I've never heard of her before (at least I didn't think I have). While I knew who Stephen Fry was. So my initial reaction was, this might not have anything to do with sexism or gender pay gap, but just with the mere fact that Fry simply is the much bigger name. Whether the name is worth a 60% higher pay is another question.

Of course all of you have a way better insight into the British entertainment industry, so if you say, she is in the same league as Fry than I have to take your word for it.

[lacuna]

54 minutes ago, john said:

 

I’m interested in who people think has a similar status to Stephen Fry in British show business? There’s not many choices, especially if you’re looking for someone with comedy and presenting experience.

Dara O'Brien is probably the closest. Comedy chops, experience presenting, nerd cred...

[lessthanluke]

33 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Although, I really didn't want to comment on the issue, because I really have no dog in this fight.

But I have to admit I never heard of Toksvig before I read the headline about her getting paid less than Stephen Fry, due to gender inequality. Which quite frankly surprised me, as (like I said) I've never heard of her before (at least I didn't think I have). While I knew who Stephen Fry was. So my initial reaction was, this might not have anything to do with sexism or gender pay gap, but just with the mere fact that Fry simply is the much bigger name. Whether the name is worth a 60% higher pay is another question.

Of course all of you have a way better insight into the British entertainment industry, so if you say, she is in the same league as Fry than I have to take your word for it.

I'm British and I'd never heard of her before she joined Bake Off last year and even while watching that show I still didn't know who she was/what she was famous for.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, john said:

I’m interested in who people think has a similar status to Stephen Fry in British show business? There’s not many choices, especially if you’re looking for someone with comedy and presenting experience.

Rowan Atkinson maybe - not sure about his presenting experience though. John Cleese (although there you may rightfully argue that Cleese is an even bigger name). Hugh Laurie (but there again, you can argue whether he is bigger than Fry). 

[Maltaran]

38 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

I'm British and I'd never heard of her before she joined Bake Off last year and even while watching that show I still didn't know who she was/what she was famous for.

Lots of Radio 4 comedy, she presented the News Quiz for a long time which probably helped with getting the QI gig

[Nevarfeather]

Has anyone read the nuggets being sneaked out about the ERG’s plan for Northern Ireland? No wonder they're scared to publish it, it sounds bonkers. Roaming customs inspectors'? Incidental Inspectors on the border? How can the ERG have had 40 years to come up with something but are still at the monkey-typewriter stage?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7224083/pm-chequers-brexit-ireland-tax/

I thought Brexit was going to cut red tape, not create an army of mobile inspectors and when to they plan to train and employ those? And who will be their security detail? Will Karen Bradley be doing the induction day? Her slides on the background to the people you will encounter on your wild roamings will be gold though, pure gold. 

[lessthanluke]

45 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

Lots of Radio 4 comedy, she presented the News Quiz for a long time which probably helped with getting the QI gig

Gotcha. I don't think I've ever had that station on so explains my lack of knowledge.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Although, I really didn't want to comment on the issue, because I really have no dog in this fight.

But I have to admit I never heard of Toksvig before I read the headline about her getting paid less than Stephen Fry, due to gender inequality. Which quite frankly surprised me, as (like I said) I've never heard of her before (at least I didn't think I have). While I knew who Stephen Fry was. So my initial reaction was, this might not have anything to do with sexism or gender pay gap, but just with the mere fact that Fry simply is the much bigger name. Whether the name is worth a 60% higher pay is another question.

Of course all of you have a way better insight into the British entertainment industry, so if you say, she is in the same league as Fry than I have to take your word for it.

Again, her fame is pretty much moot at this point, though: the series no longer needs a famous host. When Fry left, Fremantle needed someone who was a, competent at the job and b, familiar to the existing audience. Toksvig had been a regular guest on QI and had considerable experience hosting similar, albeit lower-profile, shows on both radio and TV. She was eminently well qualified for the job. So her lower level of familiarity to casual viewers should, in employment law terms, be irrelevant. 

17 minutes ago, Nevarfeather said:

Has anyone read the nuggets being sneaked out about the ERG’s plan for Northern Ireland? No wonder they're scared to publish it, it sounds bonkers. Roaming customs inspectors'? Incidental Inspectors on the border? How can the ERG have had 40 years to come up with something but are still at the monkey-typewriter stage?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7224083/pm-chequers-brexit-ireland-tax/

I thought Brexit was going to cut red tape, not create an army of mobile inspectors and when to they plan to train and employ those? And who will be their security detail? Will Karen Bradley be doing the induction day? Her slides on the background to the people you will encounter on your wild roamings will be gold though, pure gold. 

It's utterly unworkable, of course, but it doesn't exist to actually work. It exists to try to stop the NI border problem from derailing Brexit. Brexiteers have never in their whole campaign been expected to explain how Brexit would actually work. Now, they can no longer duck the question. Which hasn't stopped them from trying. 

[The BlackBear]

Radio 4 comedy is consistently some of the best the BBC put out, with the notable exception of Just a Minute.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

Again, her fame is pretty much moot at this point, though: the series no longer needs a famous host. When Fry left, Fremantle needed someone who was a, competent at the job and b, familiar to the existing audience. Toksvig had been a regular guest on QI and had considerable experience hosting similar, albeit lower-profile, shows on both radio and TV. She was eminently well qualified for the job. So her lower level of familiarity to casual viewers should, in employment law terms, be irrelevant. 

25 minutes ago, Nevarfeather said:

We are talking about show biz. Of course the size of the name translates into the size of the pay cheque, and Fry can get away with a higher wage demands than Toksvig (or most other hosts for that matter). I mean Fremantle probably saw the opportunity to cut production costs post Fry and took it. Toksvig could've demanded the same wage as Fry, but my guess is, then somebody else would've taken that gig for what she earns now (maybe Boyle or somebody of similar stature).

[mormont]

56 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

We are talking about show biz. Of course the size of the name translates into the size of the pay cheque, and Fry can get away with a higher wage demands than Toksvig (or most other hosts for that matter).

See my earlier posts. While this may or may not be true:

- it does not account for the whole of the discrepancy

- the correct comparison is not to Fry but to a hypothetical male successor, or if you prefer to Davies or Boyle*, and

- even if this were to be offered as a defence by Fremantle, which it has not been, it wouldn't stand up at an employment tribunal (not that the matter will ever reach one, it's just interesting to me as an HR guy to consider what would happen if it did). 

 

*and as also noted previously, the argument that Boyle or any other male comparator would have offered or have accepted an equivalent wage to a team captain would be laughed out of an employment tribunal. Seriously. 

[john]

3 hours ago, Maltaran said:

Lots of Radio 4 comedy, she presented the News Quiz for a long time which probably helped with getting the QI gig

She was on the comedy circuit in the 90s, did Whose Line is it Anyway and appeared in early series of Have I Got News For You (was supposed to be the original host of this too but the BBC wanted a man) and Mock the Week.  Probably before your time though Luke.

[Jen'ari]

On 9/9/2018 at 9:56 PM, mankytoes said:

That implies he didn't mean to say it. I disagree, I believe strongly that most of his controversial moments are pre planned. He's a fully fledged "celebrity politician". For example, I'd bet my right nut that the zip wire thing was a stunt. 

Everyone says they are sick of boring, scripted politicians, which the "Maybot" somewhat embodies. Boris is a bit mad, bit controversial, just like your local loudmouth twat up the pub, but with the bonus of speaking all posh so we all subliminally feel he probably should be in charge anyway. 

I’ve always felt Boris pre plans things and is scripted too, he just seems too foolish to consider the backlash afterwards.

There really doesn’t seem to be a credible person in either party I’d feel comfortable with being in charge at the moment.

[mankytoes]

13 minutes ago, Lord Sidious said:

I’ve always felt Boris pre plans things and is scripted too, he just seems too foolish to consider the backlash afterwards.

There really doesn’t seem to be a credible person in either party I’d feel comfortable with being in charge at the moment.

I don't agree about him being foolish. The backlash has been outweighed by the gains, he's been Mayor of London, foreign secretary, and he's the bookies favourite to be next PM. There are a lot of people who would never normally vote Tory but think he's a "legend".

Are people still keen on Ruth Davidson? 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 hours ago, mormont said:

- it does not account for the whole of the discrepancy

 

With that I agree,and I think I also said as much, that 60% seems quite big of a difference.

3 hours ago, mormont said:

 - the correct comparison is not to Fry but to a hypothetical male successor, or if you prefer to Davies or Boyle*, and

 

Also, I agree with that. But the complaint was that Fry's pay cheque was significantly higher. And it's also the discrepancy that you are taking issues with. 

3 hours ago, mormont said:

*and as also noted previously, the argument that Boyle or any other male comparator would have offered or have accepted an equivalent wage to a team captain would be laughed out of an employment tribunal. Seriously. 

That goes then down to Toksvig (or rather her management) that she accepted those terms. Maybe she should've walked away from the negotiation and voiced her complaints about it. But again, the comparission she (and you) made were not with the team captains, but with Fry.

[Jen'ari]

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

I don't agree about him being foolish. The backlash has been outweighed by the gains, he's been Mayor of London, foreign secretary, and he's the bookies favourite to be next PM. There are a lot of people who would never normally vote Tory but think he's a "legend".

Are people still keen on Ruth Davidson? 

I’d certainly agree that he’s done very well for himself playing the clown, to be fair though his becoming London mayor wasn’t as impressive when running against someone as divisive and unlikable as Ken Livingston.

His becoming Foreign Secretary was handed to him by May because she wanted to try and keep him on Side it seemed to me anyway, but it didn’t work, and worse still he proved himself terrible at the job.

From what I know of Ruth Davidson I’d certainly vote for her over Boris, Theresa May or JRM.