LordImp Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 So what to expect from Melisandre in The Winds of Winter. Will she even have a POV? A popular theory is that she'll sacrifice Shireen , possibly to bring Jon back. If she does , what will the consequenses be for her? How would Jon react when he learns that a little girl was burned alive ? If Stannis lives , how will he react to the sacrifice of his daughter ? Will she remain on the Wall , maybe she confronts the Others? Personally I hope we'll learn more about her background. GRRM has said that she has her own agenda , perhaps we can find out what this agenda is. Will she survive TWOW? What do you think Mel will be doing in TWOW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 George will need her POV for the first part of TWOW, while Jon is out. Her role will be to resurrect Jon. The manner is unclear. there are i think three strong theories.: a) There is a funeral ("and now his watch is over " kind of thing) performed by Melisandre in the fashion of the religion of Rhllor, and when she performs the last kiss, Jon is raised miraculously from the dead, similar to Thoros-beric. b) in a ceremony alike the Mirri Maz duurs ritual to revive Drogo. "strength of the beast go into the body" kind of thing, where Ghost must be sacrificed c) A typical sacrifice in the Pyre, but not of shireen, rather Gerrick kingsblood and his son ... (or maybe its a combination of all three) as for shireen, she must be sacrificed by stannis himself for it to be charged emotionally, otherwise is just cheap. So this must happen when Stannis and Melisandre are rejoined. Probably in Winterfell, theres a scenario in which the castle is besieged (by the others?)., and Stannis in desperation does the unthinkable. In fact i have the theory that Melisandre will manipulate Devan seaworth to convince Stannis to do it. (she will glamour him as Davos). either way, this should probably happen in ADOS, not in TWOW. Theres also the possibilty that she will produce another shadow assassin (there are hints of this in her POV chapter)...For what purpose is unclear. One theory is that she might want to Kill bloodraven, who she thinks is the chapion of the Great Other.. and this will in turn destroy the magical wards of the cave and trigger the Others attack, as in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordImp Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 2 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said: Theres also the possibilty that she will produce another shadow assassin (there are hints of this in her POV chapter)...For what purpose is unclear. One theory is that she might want to Kill bloodraven, who she thinks is the chapion of the Great Other.. and this will in turn destroy the magical wards of the cave and trigger the Others attack, as in That's a interesting thought I haven't seen before. Makes sense as she thinks of Bloodraven as a champion of the Great Other . Now I want this to happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 19 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said: George will need her POV for the first part of TWOW, while Jon is out. Her role will be to resurrect Jon. The manner is unclear. there are i think three strong theories.: a) There is a funeral ("and now his watch is over " kind of thing) performed by Melisandre in the fashion of the religion of Rhllor, and when she performs the last kiss, Jon is raised miraculously from the dead, similar to Thoros-beric. b) in a ceremony alike the Mirri Maz duurs ritual to revive Drogo. "strength of the beast go into the body" kind of thing, where Ghost must be sacrificed c) A typical sacrifice in the Pyre, but not of shireen, rather Gerrick kingsblood and his son ... (or maybe its a combination of all three) as for shireen, she must be sacrificed by stannis himself for it to be charged emotionally, otherwise is just cheap. So this must happen when Stannis and Melisandre are rejoined. Probably in Winterfell, theres a scenario in which the castle is besieged (by the others?)., and Stannis in desperation does the unthinkable. In fact i have the theory that Melisandre will manipulate Devan seaworth to convince Stannis to do it. (she will glamour him as Davos). either way, this should probably happen in ADOS, not in TWOW. Theres also the possibilty that she will produce another shadow assassin (there are hints of this in her POV chapter)...For what purpose is unclear. One theory is that she might want to Kill bloodraven, who she thinks is the chapion of the Great Other.. and this will in turn destroy the magical wards of the cave and trigger the Others attack, as in the show. I disagree. Jon is either dead or dying and, like Catelyn, he won't have a POV again. I think Jon will spend the first half or so of Winds in the body of Ghost where he will have a POV. But upon his return to a human body, Jon's POV chapters will end. Ghost-Jon is probably going to wander off and deal with the Free Folk who are with the Weeper. He might even clash with Varamyr Sixskins and the Others. In any case, Melisandre is going to be our Wall POV, our very own front seat to the trainwreck that is the Night's Watch. Melisandre is probably going to have a very hard time resurrecting Jon. We all know that Melisandre is a foil for Moqorro. Moqorro is pretty damn good but Melisandre is not as good as she says or thinks she is. We also know that Melisandre is coming to view Bran and Bloodraven as her natural enemies. Which is interesting as Melisandre will eventually be able to resurrect Jon and likely serve as his advisor/confidant while Bran, Jon's "brother," is also going to be trying to do the same thing. So, Jon will have both fire and ice whispering into his ear. I think Melisandre is going to have a big crisis of faith because, like I said, she's not that good. Even though the magic of the Wall makes her stronger, Melisandre is running out of the materials she has been using for her magic tricks. Also, she will have heard about Stannis losing and all her visions seem to be about Jon Snow now. Melisandre may very well be exposed as a fraud (she's not really a fraud but...) before she actually resurrects Jon. And then there's the whole Free Folk vs. Queen's Men vs. Night's Watch three-way feud. That feud in and of itself (and Melisandre's general lack of ability) may result in the deaths of Shireen Baratheon and Daven Seaworth. The Queen's Men could take it upon themselves to burn Shireen; they're already established to be extra fond of burnings and willing to take matters into their own hands. Once Mel resurrects Jon though, she'll likely be for him what she was for Stannis. Like the show, she'll travel to Winterfell with him and be there when Jon is proclaimed King according to Robb's will. Stannis and/or Davos may get her banished though. Basically, Sansa, Rickon (if he survives), Robert Arryn/Harry Hardyng, Davos, Stannis, Melisandre, Jon, Littlefinger and maybe the Brotherhood/Lady Stoneheart/Brienne will all have to cross paths in Winterfell at one point or antoher by the end of Winds. Stannis Baratheon's arc strongly reminds me of the stories of Shakespeare's Macbeth (who was based on at least one real Scottish king) and the real-life Oda Nobunaga. Neither those stories end well...and that's putting it lightly. Melisandre, particularly, seems like a fusion between the three witches ("bubble, bubble toil and trouble...") and Lady Macbeth. Melisandre is probably making it halfway through Dream before dying offscreen or onscreen (I'd be shocked if she survives the series). Stannis, however, is probably not going to make it to Dream. There's simply too much going on to squeeze anything meaningful for him in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 On 7/24/2018 at 7:35 AM, LordImp said: So what to expect from Melisandre in The Winds of Winter. Will she even have a POV? A popular theory is that she'll sacrifice Shireen , possibly to bring Jon back. If she does , what will the consequenses be for her? How would Jon react when he learns that a little girl was burned alive ? If Stannis lives , how will he react to the sacrifice of his daughter ? Will she remain on the Wall , maybe she confronts the Others? Personally I hope we'll learn more about her background. GRRM has said that she has her own agenda , perhaps we can find out what this agenda is. Will she survive TWOW? What do you think Mel will be doing in TWOW? Melisandre is one of those characters that is difficult to figure out, but here goes. She will be the POV on the Wall while Jon is out of commission. I do not believe that he is dead, but is seriously injured and will be unconscious for some time. Despite the threats in the Pink Letter, she Stannis's family will remain at Castle Black. She will assume that the 50 men Selyse brought with her will protect them, although I doubt that Ramsay will actually show up. She will be actively involved in the fight with the Others, although in what capacity is unclear. I can easily see her either helping the fight or totally screwing things up after misreading prophecy, etc. Shireen will likely get burned during this fight, and Stannis will be involved (for thematic reasons, he pretty much has to be there). I expect we will see some of her backstory. GRRM has said (I think) that we will see Asshai, and I think it will be through her. Beyond that, it is hard to say. I give her maybe 3 chapters (most of the North story will be told through Jon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Rhodes Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 I agree that her arc with Stannis is reminiscent of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, but I also see some Lady Macbeth in Cersei. Mel, along with Bran, are verging in being difficult to utilize. While I agree Melisandre isn’t as knowledgeable as she says she is, she is powerful. She and Bran will at some point know too much and become difficult to utilize as a narrative tool. I think Melisandre knows that her visions are unclear, even though she is powerful. I think she is lying to everyone to sustain her position. If she isn’t powerful, if she Durant know the future, then people will start questioning why they are following her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 She is sustained by the fires of her faith, if she were to lose that faith she may become ice aligned. She may give Stannis another shadow child that becomes the big enemy. And/or She is foreshadowed by the dragon Meleys, which carrying that through to Mel's own death would suggest she will go down in an act of self sacrifice but causing massive amounts of damage. That she will be killed/defeated by Jaime and/or Tyrion, seemingly by beheading, and her corpse will be dragged through the streets or in some other way displayed in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 7/28/2018 at 12:54 PM, Lady Rhodes said: I agree that her arc with Stannis is reminiscent of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, but I also see some Lady Macbeth in Cersei. Mel, along with Bran, are verging in being difficult to utilize. While I agree Melisandre isn’t as knowledgeable as she says she is, she is powerful. She and Bran will at some point know too much and become difficult to utilize as a narrative tool. I think Melisandre knows that her visions are unclear, even though she is powerful. I think she is lying to everyone to sustain her position. If she isn’t powerful, if she Durant know the future, then people will start questioning why they are following her. Agreed. I see Lady Macbeth in Cersei too. But I see more of Shylock, Tamora, the Queen from Cymbeline and Goneril from King Lear in Cersei than I see Lady Macbeth. I disagree about Melisandre being difficult to utilize; she's been established as being hopelessly flawed but tenacious and dedicated with a good heart. She could literally do nothing but accidentally make things worse for everyone - including herself - and not have a clue how to make it better for the rest of the series and it would make for an excellent read. Bran being difficult? I agree with. That's probably why we don't see too much of Bran even though Bran may very well be the single most important character in this saga. 12 hours ago, chrisdaw said: She is sustained by the fires of her faith, if she were to lose that faith she may become ice aligned. She may give Stannis another shadow child that becomes the big enemy. And/or She is foreshadowed by the dragon Meleys, which carrying that through to Mel's own death would suggest she will go down in an act of self sacrifice but causing massive amounts of damage. That she will be killed/defeated by Jaime and/or Tyrion, seemingly by beheading, and her corpse will be dragged through the streets or in some other way displayed in KL. Why Tyrion or Jaime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said: Why Tyrion or Jaime? Sunfyre and Criston Cole are Jaime parallels and Aegon II(?) is a Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 16 hours ago, chrisdaw said: Sunfyre and Criston Cole are Jaime parallels and Aegon II(?) is a Tyrion. Ok. Not convinced about the Aegon II=Tyrion comparison but I'll take it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 On 8/1/2018 at 12:44 AM, Jabar of House Titan said: Ok. Not convinced about the Aegon II=Tyrion comparison but I'll take it... He'll ride Viserion, the yellowy one, and when he does he will go from zero to hero, from woe is me to the world is my oyster. From there the Aegon II stuff becomes more apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Well, if she follows her normal pattern, she'll misinterpret her visions, then realign her priorities and cause some very provocative events which will probably result in the Wall falling down around everyone's heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacken Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 I think that she has a role to play in the fight against the others but I think first she needs to recognise Jon as Azor Ahai. I mean even resurrecting him- why would she do that at the moment? To better preserve a fragile peace at Castle Black? Or because she thinks Jon is necessary to the fight. This may also mean rejecting Stannis as AA and abandoning his cause, even if just privately. I think Mel will also begin getting more involved in actively trying to fight the others and figure out how to kill them. She may be among a party who venture forth toward the heart of winter to face the Great Other and defeat it (although she will die before they are victorious). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmfn Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Mel raises Jon. She gets banished (for whatever reason). She'll travel south and encounter Stoneheart. Seeing what a monster Stoneheart is will cause Mel to wonder what kind of monster Jon might be, so she'll become anti-Jon, who she believed was Azor Ahai, and her whole purpose in life will be confused and conflicted (which would be a great place to insert her backstory, as to how she got on this path in the first place.) If Mel is related to Sheara Seastar in any way, her ideas about Bloodraven being an evil Other will probably change too. None of that will happen, but it would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Ice Spider Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 On 7/26/2018 at 9:03 AM, Nevets said: She will be actively involved in the fight with the Others, although in what capacity is unclear. I can easily see her either helping the fight or totally screwing things up after misreading prophecy, etc. I can totally see her accidentally sabotaging the war for the dawn, and then trying to brazen it out the way she always does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 On 8/1/2018 at 11:17 PM, chrisdaw said: He'll ride Viserion, the yellowy one, and when he does he will go from zero to hero, from woe is me to the world is my oyster. From there the Aegon II stuff becomes more apparent. Why would Daenerys let Tyrion ride Viserion? Dany in Winds is likely to be very Dothraki-ish by the time she meets Tyrion. Even then, when she takes him into her service, she's never going to completely trust him enough. And Tyrion is going to become a villain by the end of the show. GRRM has said so and it becomes painfully obvious reading through Dance... If he ever rides a dragon, it'll be because he stole it. Which is unlikely because I think the dragon horn is an elaborate sham masterminded by Euron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 On 8/3/2018 at 4:33 AM, blacken said: I think that she has a role to play in the fight against the others but I think first she needs to recognise Jon as Azor Ahai. I mean even resurrecting him- why would she do that at the moment? To better preserve a fragile peace at Castle Black? Or because she thinks Jon is necessary to the fight. This may also mean rejecting Stannis as AA and abandoning his cause, even if just privately. I think Mel will also begin getting more involved in actively trying to fight the others and figure out how to kill them. She may be among a party who venture forth toward the heart of winter to face the Great Other and defeat it (although she will die before they are victorious). I like this idea....even though it is more of a prediction for A Dream of Spring... On 8/1/2018 at 11:43 PM, Trefayne said: Well, if she follows her normal pattern, she'll misinterpret her visions, then realign her priorities and cause some very provocative events which will probably result in the Wall falling down around everyone's heads. I can see her doing this in Winds. But I think that it will only work if she doesn't know that she is going to take down the Wall. The better question is: will Jon be resurrected just before the Wall falls, will he be resurrected during the fall of the Wall or will he be resurrected after the Wall has already fallen and the North is being overrun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Rhodes Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 8 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said: GRRM has said so When has he said this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 15 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said: When has he said this? https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html Back in the day, when people were anticipating A Storm of Swords. Before anyone can say that "Well, that was 18-20 years ago. Doesn't mean it's going to be the case now," I suggest that they go reread the Tyrion's final chapters in Storm and all of his chapters in Dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Rhodes Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 25 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said: https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html Back in the day, when people were anticipating A Storm of Swords. Before anyone can say that "Well, that was 18-20 years ago. Doesn't mean it's going to be the case now," I suggest that they go reread the Tyrion's final chapters in Storm and all of his chapters in Dance. Thank you for the link! I will be reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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