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The Future of Melisandre

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4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I can see her doing this in Winds. But I think that it will only work if she doesn't know that she is going to take down the Wall.

The better question is: will Jon be resurrected just before the Wall falls, will he be resurrected during the fall of the Wall or will he be resurrected after the Wall has already fallen and the North is being overrun.

Of course she won't know. That's her whole spiel. Talk big, know little. "You know nothing" takes on a whole new level with her. I've come to call her The Giant McGuffin Lady. If this somehow turns around I will be pleasantly surprised.

I was under the impression that Jon would have to be brought back (if that is the plot) rather soon or they will burn him to prevent him coming back the other way. Jon called for Ghost just as he was fading out. If this means he was trying to instinctively transfer to Ghost to save himself it might be an indication that he can stay spiritually intact once his body is returned to life; something that has been a noted problem so far using this resurrection method. Beric Dondarrian notes that he loses something every time Thoros brings him back and Catelyn; well who knows what's going on in there now besides revenge?

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7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

And Tyrion is going to become a villain by the end of the show. GRRM has said so and it becomes painfully obvious reading through Dance...

Tyrion the villain riding Viserion sounds a pretty interesting story to me.

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16 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Of course she won't know. That's her whole spiel. Talk big, know little. "You know nothing" takes on a whole new level with her. I've come to call her The Giant McGuffin Lady. If this somehow turns around I will be pleasantly surprised.

1

Well, yeah. But what I meant by "she won't know she's going to take down the Wall," is that she won't know that it was her that did it. Or at the very least, it will take a while for her and the other characters to figure it out.

What might end up happening is that:

  1. Melisandre will do something short-sighted and half-baked that will take down the Wall
  2. it will take her a while for her to figure out that it was her who did it
  3. she tries to keep the secret
  4. people find out
  5. she gets exiled or she has to run for her life

Some of that is going to happen in Dream though.

16 hours ago, Trefayne said:

I was under the impression that Jon would have to be brought back (if that is the plot) rather soon or they will burn him to prevent him coming back the other way. Jon called for Ghost just as he was fading out. If this means he was trying to instinctively transfer to Ghost to save himself it might be an indication that he can stay spiritually intact once his body is returned to life; something that has been a noted problem so far using this resurrection method. Beric Dondarrian notes that he loses something every time Thoros brings him back and Catelyn; well who knows what's going on in there now besides revenge?

 

Don't worry.

We'll get a nice, front-row seat to the mystery that Catelyn has become. Actually, we might even get two.

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13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion the villain riding Viserion sounds a pretty interesting story to me.

Yeah...

I don't see Tyrion surviving the series however. Doing stuff like that is sure to get him killed.

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Her DWD chapter shows the start of a self crisis that will lead to more wrong vision transation and wrong counsel. Stannis (AA reborn according to her) is reported dead, she cant see him in her fire (she sees only Jon) and chaos will erupt at the Wall after Jon's stabbing. All these will lead to Shireen's sacrifice to resurect Azor Ahai.

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on the one hand i think she will loose her life for "resurrecting" jon, i don't think he is dead, his body is just to wounded to warg back in it.

if she burns someone she will be executed or she will try to give her life for jons, like berric for LSH

on the otherhand, i really want to see her roaming through westeros without stannis and questioning her whole life.

also a Mel-Cersei scene would be really great, but i doubt this will happen

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On 8/18/2018 at 10:58 AM, Euron Lannister said:

on the one hand i think she will loose her life for "resurrecting" jon, i don't think he is dead, his body is just to wounded to warg back in it.

if she burns someone she will be executed or she will try to give her life for jons, like berric for LSH

on the other hand, i really want to see her roaming through westeros without stannis and questioning her whole life.

also a Mel-Cersei scene would be really great, but i doubt this will happen

I think Martin regrets killing off Beric Dondarrion. So, I don't think Melisandre is going to lose her life by kissing Jon back to life.

The bold, blue part is what I want to see in Dream. Yes and yes and yes.

On 8/18/2018 at 8:37 AM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Her DWD chapter shows the start of a self crisis that will lead to more wrong vision transation and wrong counsel. Stannis (AA reborn according to her) is reported dead, she cant see him in her fire (she sees only Jon) and chaos will erupt at the Wall after Jon's stabbing. All these will lead to Shireen's sacrifice to resurect Azor Ahai.

Absolutely.

I think Melisandre's crisis of faith is going to be juxtaposed against Aeron's (which actually started back in Feast) and Bran's. All we need is a believer or agent of the Seven - which is totally not real - to have a faith crisis and then we'll have all our basis covered. Maybe Sandor?

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I think Jon's resurrection is going to mirror Drogo's "attempted" resurrection, which puts Mel in a really bad place.

 

My theory is that early on, the Night's Watch will burn Jon's body. But eventually Stannis will win the Battle in Winterfell, place Rickon in charge, and go back to his castle, the Nightfort. There, he's gonna complain to Mel how hard Rickon is to manage, and how everything would be easier if Jon had accepted his offer. By this time, Robb's Will would have resurfaced, and Stannis will say that Jon would have never recused his brother's offer.

 

Mel, in the other hand, will have passed half a book struggling with the identity of the Azor Ahai at this point, probably receiving many dreadful visions after Jon's stabbing and her arrival at the mystical Nightfort. At this point, the story starts the parallel with Drogo's "resurrection".

 

She will listen to Stannis' complains and say "the there is a way, but it's a dark way, some say death is cleaner". She will reveal that she had glamoured one of the cadavers in the ice cell as Jon, and smuggled Jon's body. Then, she will say it requires a price. And just as MMD made it seem like the price was Drogo's stallion, Mel will make it seem that the price is Ghost. Stannis will agree, without knowing that the price is actually Shireen.

 

Jon will be brought back (since, unlike MMD, Mel is ACTUALLY trying to revive him), and Mel will be condemned to execution by Stannis, as MMD was executed by Daenerys. But in the end, i'm not sure if she will die by his hand. I would like if she could escape to North of the Wall. She doesn't feel cold or hunger, so her journey North would be interesting as she would have different difficulties than the other characters. Likely, her visions would be more and more compromised with Bloodraven's and Bran's, and she would be psychologically bothered by that. And in the end, it would be nice if she was killed by an Other, having the confrontation she was seeking from the beginning. So as MMD died by fire, Mel dies by ice, and hopefully she will give him some challenge and we'll have a magic battle that evidences some weakness in the Others.

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On 8/22/2018 at 8:34 AM, VinAbqrq said:

Jon will be brought back (since, unlike MMD, Mel is ACTUALLY trying to revive him), and Mel will be condemned to execution by Stannis, as MMD was executed by Daenerys. But in the end, i'm not sure if she will die by his hand. I would like if she could escape to North of the Wall. She doesn't feel cold or hunger, so her journey North would be interesting as she would have different difficulties than the other characters. Likely, her visions would be more and more compromised with Bloodraven's and Bran's, and she would be psychologically bothered by that. And in the end, it would be nice if she was killed by an Other, having the confrontation she was seeking from the beginning. So as MMD died by fire, Mel dies by ice, and hopefully she will give him some challenge and we'll have a magic battle that evidences some weakness in the Others.

I really, really like the blue part.

I've heard similar theories where Melisandre is part of the elite team that goes way north into the heart of the Lands of Always Winter to deal with the Great Other or whomever...and then dies there fighting the good fight.

I also think a battle of magic between Melisandre and the Others. It would be beautiful to behold.

I don't know; I think Melisandre's future depends on her past, the reason why she decided to come to Westeros and court the Dragonstone Baratheons and why she has done it all alone.

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On 8/6/2018 at 12:02 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html

Back in the day, when people were anticipating A Storm of Swords.

Before anyone can say that "Well, that was 18-20 years ago. Doesn't mean it's going to be the case now," I suggest that they go reread the Tyrion's final chapters in Storm and all of his chapters in Dance.

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

So Tyrion is "the" villain. I wonder how many camps the final battle will have, and of those how many will be 'villains'? The Night King is a villain, Euron is a villain, Cersei, The Mountain/Robert Strong, Ramsay...etc etc etc

Am I overanalyzing the use of "the" instead of "a". Is there more to Tyrion than meets the eye?

Has GRRM's plan changed between that article and now?

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3 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

So Tyrion is "the" villain. I wonder how many camps the final battle will have, and of those how many will be 'villains'? The Night King is a villain, Euron is a villain, Cersei, The Mountain/Robert Strong, Ramsay...etc etc etc

Am I overanalyzing the use of "the" instead of "a". Is there more to Tyrion than meets the eye?

Has GRRM's plan changed between that article and now?

I think there is a strong argument that Tyrion becomes/is becoming/has become the villain throughout the series. It also depends on what happens when he meets and works with Dany, of course.

He's a guy you kinda of root for in the beginning and could end up hating in the end, kinda the opposite of Jamie. I could see a few paths in my head where he becomes "the main bad guy in westeros" and what makes it more interesting is we see the transformation all the way through from his point of view. He thinks what he is doing is fine and kind, but we see how it becomes worse and worse.

Cersei is a villain and so is Euron sure, but they are point of views we either don't see, or don't see till much later on. They are the "quick villain" to hate. Tyrion is the long one.

It really is interesting. 

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15 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I could see a few paths in my head where he becomes "the main bad guy in westeros" and what makes it more interesting is we see the transformation all the way through from his point of view. He thinks what he is doing is fine and kind, but we see how it becomes worse and worse.

I just always thought the final battle, the whole point of ASOIAF would be defeating the Night King.

What sort of things can you envision Tyrion doing to get to main bad guy status, and how will that interact with the Night King do you think?

Edited by Legitimate_Bastard

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Just now, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I just always thought the final battle, the whole point of ASOIAF would be defeating the Night King.

What sort of things can you envision Tyrion doing to get to main bad guy status, and how will that interact with the Night King do you think?

Well in ASOIAF there is no Night King (at least not yet). The Others don't have a leader, that we know of. I think they will be a big deal eventually, and to me and in my opinion the point of the Others is to show there are more important threats in the world than the petty squabbles we have (or something like that).
I don't see Cersei lasting much longer in the books, maybe to the end of the 6th. I personally seeing Aegon taking the throne before Dany can get there. I think Dany is going to have to start dealing with Euron soon. I think Aegon would take the throne from cersei and kills her off. I could see Tyrion doing a type of "ultimate betrayal" to Dany and joining Aegon for ... reasons (I haven't really worked it out yet in my head). Maybe that makes him the main villain? or is the most important villain because he goes from someone we kinda root for to this despicable person, though since we see it through his POV we understand it more?

A lot of this is me throwing out random ideas, I am sure there are holes.

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7 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Well in ASOIAF there is no Night King (at least not yet).

Yeah - I have been poisoned by the show lol. I could see it being something along the lines of 'The Others will purify the world from the current order and Tyrion goes madman to purify and start again'. 

Then again its GRRM so who knows?

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1 minute ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Yeah - I have been poisoned by the show lol. I could see it being something along the lines of 'The Others will purify the world from the current order and Tyrion goes madman to purify and start again'. 

Then again its GRRM so who knows?

Lol, there are time I make book arguments and people look at me and say, "that was show only." UGH!
But yeah, in all honesty, who knows the path GRRM will go with things. They really are a wildcard in the books right now.

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On 9/6/2018 at 12:34 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I just always thought the final battle, the whole point of ASOIAF would be defeating the Night King.

What sort of things can you envision Tyrion doing to get to main bad guy status, and how will that interact with the Night King do you think?

Um...how about pitting Daenerys and Aegon against each other for starters only to stab both of them in the back?

Trying to take Sansa back by force would also definitely put him in that category.

Also, Tyrion strikes me as the worldly, uber-scientific type who will deny, object and refuse to believe in the Others until well...the times comes for him. That means that while everyone is trying to stay alive, hide behind human shields or fight back, Tyrion will be in denial, focusing on firing shots at everyone else who wronged him. Which would of course clear the field for the Others. He is Tywin's son and Tywin was not a religious/spiritual/superstitious man. 

As for the Night King? Well, if there turns out to be a Night King figure in the books, think about on Tyrion's journey on the Rhoyne and his thoughts of the Shrouded Lord in Dance. The Shrouded Lord coalesces, in Tyrion's mind, with thoughts of his undead father. The Shrouded Lord, Tywin and the Night King could all be coalesced together in  Tyrion's mind.

 

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On 9/6/2018 at 6:43 PM, btfu806 said:

 I could see Tyrion doing a type of "ultimate betrayal" to Dany and joining Aegon for ... reasons

Well, those are not too hard to imagine. Dany winning a battle, then crucifying some more enemies, or just letting her dragons burn them. Tyrion thinks, she's going to be another mad Targaryen and decides to betray her for the greater good. But (f)Aegon turns out not much better, or simply as the fraud he is (placed there by Varys who's been using and manipulating Tyrion all the time), Tyrion gets cheated once again, his merits not acknowledged, so he says, "screw you guys, I'm going north" and giving up all hope on humanity becomes an ally and tactical advisor to the Others. There he is, the (human) villain, and it would be a most understandable story about the way into cynicism and bitterness. This could easily run beside the main plot of Ice and Fire/Jon and Dany (that betrayal wouldn't need to kill her, just prevent her from claiming the Iron Throne. Instead, she heads north to join forces with Jon).

Edited by Umber Jack

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On 10/7/2018 at 9:36 AM, Umber Jack said:

Well, those are not too hard to imagine. Dany winning a battle, then crucifying some more enemies, or just letting her dragons burn them. Tyrion thinks, she's going to be another mad Targaryen and decides to betray her for the greater good. But (f)Aegon turns out not much better, or simply as the fraud he is (placed there by Varys who's been using and manipulating Tyrion all the time), Tyrion gets cheated once again, his merits not acknowledged, so he says, "screw you guys, I'm going north" and giving up all hope on humanity becomes an ally and tactical advisor to the Others. There he is, the (human) villain, and it would be a most understandable story about the way into cynicism and bitterness. This could easily run beside the main plot of Ice and Fire/Jon and Dany (that betrayal wouldn't need to kill her, just prevent her from claiming the Iron Throne. Instead, she heads north to join forces with Jon).

I am currently in a reread because my memory is starting to slip but, does Tyrion get news while at court of Dany crucifying people in the past? In general besides Vary's saying, she's great, is there any reason for Tyrion to like/trust her? Just wondering if this is stuff he should already know about her.

Past that, why would Tyrion care about the greater good? It's been a little while since I have read the latter books so I may be wrong. But, if I remember correctly he kinda only cares about himself, his brother and ... that's it? I don't remember an instance where he was for "the greater good."

But even without that, your logic does make sense if Tyrion just realizes that Dany could be a "mad queen/ mad targaryen" and I think your argument definitely holds up to that. In TWOW I kinda have it figured out in my head where I think everyone will go, and what they will do (at least what makes sense to me) and for me Tyrion is kinda a wildcard. I could see him going several directions. 

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I don’t want to see Jon resurrected by Melisandre.  I personally would rather see Jon accidentally resurrected by Val , who seems to be a wildling witch.  I’d love it if the Wildlings won the fight at Castle Black and decided to give Melisandre a taste of her own medicine.

Val and the others have already shown contempt for Shireen as well.  So I could see a scenario where the Wildlings burn Jon & all the others killed in the fight along with Mel, Shireen, & Selyse as payback for Mel & Stannis burning Mance (or so they thought) alive.  This funeral pyre takes place in the woods north of the wall  

And just as with Dany’s fire, the sacrifice of a witch Mel (MMD), king’s Blood Shireen (Rhaego), and a 3rd being Selyse (Drogo’s Horse) will also wake a dragon in Jon Snow who will rise as a Targaryen. He’ll still have his Stark features except he’ll have purple eyes and a streak of Platinum hair.  

And as we lose Mel’s POV at the Wall we’ll regain Jon’s.  The rest of the book we would have Jon really questioning his identity and having more prolific dreams of the Winterfell crypts via Bran.  There’s something special left for him down there in Lyanna’s tomb. A memento from Rhaegar & Lyanna?  A letter?  Harp?  My guess is the Greatsword Dawn but he may get that later.

I also think the Wildlings burning Mel sets up some great internal struggle for her POV.  Imagine her finally being scared to die & having fear of the flames?   And then ultimately embracing them and accepting her fate in a last ditch hope to resurrect Stannis.  Of course she’ll actually resurrect Jon.  So I guess in this scenario, Mel actually does resurrect Jon.  Just not intentionally or all by her own doing. 

I don’t know how it would play out but I’d also like to see Mel somehow getting North of the Wall (maybe raised by the WW’s after the funeral pyre or some other method) and being turned into a WW.  Maybe she survives the fire along with Jon but wanders off and gets lost?  There she’s attacked by Others and eventually turned into the Night Queen or female Other. Then she could corrupt Stannis after he retreats to the Nightfort like the female Other corrupted the 13th Lord Commander in a form of history repeating itself.  Stannis will eventually be the Night King. The blue eyed king who cast no shadow that Dany will face on the trident. 

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I do not believe that her shadow assassins could pass that ward to kill Bloodraven. I highly doubt that she would travel all that way to birth the  shadow inside of the cave. 

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