Fire and Blood Vol 1, the second round

[Blooddragon]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, they finally got there with Alicent and Viserys I, and then later again with Garmund Hightower. His six daughters by Lady Rhaena should make for a very interesting story - I still think they and/or Velaryon daughters by Alyn/Baela are the ancestors of the some (or all) of the brides of the sons of Daeron II. That way those obscure marriage choices (aside from Rhaegel's Arryn bride) would make more sense than they do now and we would finally see the Targaryens indulge themselves in cousin marriages when there is no closer kin available.

 This is effectively confirmed for Aelinor Penrose (a cousin of King Aerys I on the Targaryen side) but not yet for Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne.

I read your post regarding this theory and I really enjoyed reading them. 

Dyanna Dayne is definitely a child born as a product of a Hightower-Dayne marriage. There is no doubt about that for me. Even Hightower-Arryn marriage would be quite possible. However, conisering Lord Alyn's fame and success, it would be quite possible that he made Velaryon-Arryn match.

Post-Dance period is one of those that we do not know a lot of, so I am definitely looking forward to this. 

[Bael's Bastard]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The bigger issue is that only Alicent's impeccable Hightower lineage is mentioned in TRP, and there is no reference to her Targaryen blood.

Not really. GRRM may have no intention for Alicent Hightower to have any Targaryen blood, but if he did, the lack of reference thus far is no issue whatsoever.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And her being descended from Aerea or Rhaella would be very problematic in any scenario because that would actually mean that Otto (then the Hand) or his older brother would actually have been one of the lesser claimants (or would have very likely to possibly put forth a claim). And does it make sense that Jaehaerys I and Viserys I name/keep a Hand who might have a better claim to the Iron Throne than they themselves? Or who could at least think they have such a claim and could thus become very dangerous?

I don't think so.

It wouldn't be the least bit problematic.

1. We can only speculate whether Jaehaerys I named Otto his Hand before or after the Great Council in 101 AC.

2. Otto Hightower was a younger brother of Lord Hightower, whose son Ormund Hightower became lord after him.

3. There were only two serious candidates to be chosen as Jaehaerys's heir in 101 AC, his grandson Viserys and his great-grandson Laenor, and Viserys is said to have crushed Laenor twenty to one. 

With all candidates except two descendants of Jaehaerys being heard and dismissed, and the male candidate with the unbroken male line from Jaehaerys being overwhelmingly favored over the male candidate through a granddaughter of Jaehaerys, any claim of Otto's would have been slightly above completely irrelevant, but still below the claim of his older Lord Hightower brother.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Rhaena idea did make more sense, and would have been in accord with Beesbury's claims, since there is no indication there that Alicent's children have no Targaryen blood on their mother's side - only less than Rhaenyra has. And Rhaena's children by a third husband wouldn't have as strong a claim to the Iron Throne than Aerea or Rhaella's descendants - who are not also children of Rhaena's but also of Jaehaerys' eldest brother Aegon.

That is unnecessarily convoluted.

Aegon and Rhaena never ascended the Iron Throne, while Jaehaerys  ascended the Iron Throne over Rhaena and ruled for over fifty years. Whether Hightowers were descended from both Aegon and Rhaena through one of their daughters, or from just Rhaena, they had no chance of being supported over Jaehaerys's own descendants.

It is entirely possible they had no Targaryen ancestry at all, but if they did, there is nothing about Lord Beesbury's statement that favors it coming from hypothetical marriage/children of Rhaena over one of Rhaena/Aegon's known twin daughters, such as the one Lord Martyn Hightower protected against Maegor before declaring for Jaehaerys.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not really. GRRM may have no intention for Alicent Hightower to have any Targaryen blood, but if he did, the lack of reference thus far is no issue whatsoever.

In combination with the Beesbury thing this is pretty telling. We learn that Aemma Arryn was a first cousin, if Alicent had been a more distant cousin, we would know that, too.

Quote

With all candidates except two descendants of Jaehaerys being heard and dismissed, and the male candidate with the unbroken male line from Jaehaerys being overwhelmingly favored over the male candidate through a granddaughter of Jaehaerys, any claim of Otto's would have been slightly above completely irrelevant, but still below the claim of his older Lord Hightower brother.

This not really relevant when you think about who you entrust the governance of your kingdom. You choose people you have reason to believe are loyal to you. You don't choose people who themselves - or their relations - might consider themselves to have a better claim even if the lords of the Realm don't share that view.

Aegon V is also not going to name Prince Maegor his Hand - or the husband of Princess Vaella - because that would put far too much power and prestige in the hands of people who should not get too close to the throne.

We do know that Otto Hightower got imperious and arrogant once he settled in on the Iron Throne which he could and did sit in Viserys' absence. If Otto had also been a descendant of King Aenys and Aegon the Conqueror this would have even a more larger effect. They could have even used all that strengthen the claims of Alicent's children against Rhaenyra's, etc.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

In combination with the Beesbury thing this is pretty telling. We learn that Aemma Arryn was a first cousin, if Alicent had been a more distant cousin, we would know that, too.

We wouldn't know unless/until we were told. As with the loads of information we didn't know until it was revealed in TWOIAF, or the novellas, or ADWD, or AFFC, or ASOS, etc., whether because it hadn't been revealed to us, or because GRRM hadn't even come up with or finalized it yet. Who knows when GRRM determined all of the marriages and children of Rhaena and her twin daughters, or what the identities of those marriages and children are? You and I don't. It is possible, even likely, that Alicent didn't have any Targaryen blood. We certainly can't assume that Alicent did have Targaryen blood.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This not really relevant when you think about who you entrust the governance of your kingdom. You choose people you have reason to believe are loyal to you. You don't choose people who themselves - or their relations - might consider themselves to have a better claim even if the lords of the Realm don't share that view.

Aegon V is also not going to name Prince Maegor his Hand - or the husband of Princess Vaella - because that would put far too much power and prestige in the hands of people who should not get too close to the throne.

We do know that Otto Hightower got imperious and arrogant once he settled in on the Iron Throne which he could and did sit in Viserys' absence. If Otto had also been a descendant of King Aenys and Aegon the Conqueror this would have even a more larger effect. They could have even used all that strengthen the claims of Alicent's children against Rhaenyra's, etc.

Of course it's relevant, as it demonstrates from a few different angles how absurd is the argument that Otto being named Hand is in any way a proof or indication that he had no Targaryen blood himself.  As I have stated a number of times, I am not convinced that Otto or Alicent did have Targaryen blood, and think it is likely they didn't.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

We wouldn't know unless/until we were told. As with the loads of information we didn't know until it was revealed in TWOIAF, or the novellas, or ADWD, or AFFC, or ASOS, etc., whether because it hadn't been revealed to us, or because GRRM hadn't even come up with or finalized it yet. Who knows when GRRM determined all of the marriages and children of Rhaena and her twin daughters, or what the identities of those marriages and children are? You and I don't. It is possible, even likely, that Alicent didn't have any Targaryen blood. We certainly can't assume that Alicent did have Targaryen blood.

Of course not. And my idea that Otto and Alicent may have had Targaryen blood died with TRP. Chances that this might be retconned or tweaked to get a completely different spin are not very likely.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Of course it's relevant, as it demonstrates from a few different angles how absurd is the argument that Otto being named Hand is in any way a proof or indication that he had no Targaryen blood himself.  As I have stated a number of times, I am not convinced that Otto or Alicent did have Targaryen blood, and think it is likely they didn't.

If he Otto's mother had been one of Jaehaerys' daughters he certainly could have been Hand. But if he were descended from a Targaryen from an elder line - one whose other members had put forth their own claims at the Great Council - then this would be very odd. We would have reason to assume that this would have been mentioned further down the line, first when Otto became Hand and then, too, when Alicent's lineage were discussed. If she had had such Targaryen ancestors she would have been as prestigious a bride as Aemma Arryn and Laena Velaryon - and in both cases we get information on the Targaryen ancestry.