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What did Gregor Clegane do to get knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen?


Angel Eyes

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So getting knighted by the Prince of Dragonstone is a pretty big deal. What did Gregor Clegane, a third-generation member of a landed knightly house, do that was so important that he received a knighthood from the Heir to the Iron Throne? Keep in mind that the king himself (Aerys Targaryen) was knighted by a 17-year-old knight who was only heir to Casterly Rock, whose house's reputation had been going downhill for the last 16 years.

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One guess: Tywin asked and Rhaegar acceded.

More importantly, it makes for a gruesome story element and lays plain the hypocrisy of 'knighthood,' that a man Rhaegar knighted later murdered one of Rhaegar's children and raped and murdered Rhaegar's wife. The why doesn't really matter.

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3 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

One guess: Tywin asked and Rhaegar acceded.

More importantly, it makes for a gruesome story element and lays plain the hypocrisy of 'knighthood,' that a man Rhaegar knighted later murdered one of Rhaegar's children and raped and murdered Rhaegar's wife. The why doesn't really matter.

This

Plus....are u gonna tell the big mofo no?

Yep sure il knight u big fella... were friends now right? Right?

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3 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

One guess: Tywin asked and Rhaegar acceded.

More importantly, it makes for a gruesome story element and lays plain the hypocrisy of 'knighthood,' that a man Rhaegar knighted later murdered one of Rhaegar's children and raped and murdered Rhaegar's wife. The why doesn't really matter.

Word.

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Gregor knighted by Rhaegar points imo at Rhaegar and Tywin being allies. 

As Tywin said, there is a tool for every task and a task for every tool. 

Rhaegar allied himself with Tywin and Tywin asked him to create a tool for certain task. Rhaegar just did as he was asked. 

The thing is, what was the task.

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Yeah, that's an interesting question.

And he was about 15 when he was knighted mind you - Gregor was 17 in 283 when he killed Elia, and Tywin and his men were not in KL when Rhaegar came back from ToJ. So, Gregor could not be knighted later than 281 (and it was done before Harrenhal according to SSM).

Being knighted by Prince of Dragonstone is a big deal. Being knighted by Prince of Dragonstone in age of 15 is bigger. Sure, it can be done by Tywin request, but why on Earth Tywin would ask it from Prince for some lowly green boy in his service? This is a favor you request for your relatives or closest allies, not some young brutes

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I see no reason as to why Tywin would have been involved at all. A more plausible scenario is that Gregor performed well in some tourney or melee, perhaps the one at Lannisport. And as a PR stunt, no doubt committed by many ruling houses across the feudal spectrum in Westeros, Rhaegar knighted a bunch of people for their performance. Gregor was one of them. And to Rhaegar and Tywin Gregor was no doubt a newly made knight among many others and Rhaegar had probably forgotten about Gregor within a week of the event. Gregor was simply of no importance in those days.

For those who thinks that Tywin wanted knighthood for Gregor, why would he need that? The Lannisters makes perfect use of Sandor for various tasks and he isn't a knight nor do the Lannisters try to make him into one.

Finally Gregor does not expose any hypocrisy of knighthood. Gregor is hated and reviled by people for what he does, and untouchable because of his strength, that fact that he seldom leaves his own lands and Tywin's protection. If people had shrugged and said that Gregor knows how the world works so they don't hold it against him, that would have been hypocrisy, but they hate his guts instead.

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1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Finally Gregor does not expose any hypocrisy of knighthood. Gregor is hated and reviled by people for what he does, and untouchable because of his strength, that fact that he seldom leaves his own lands and Tywin's protection. If people had shrugged and said that Gregor knows how the world works so they don't hold it against him, that would have been hypocrisy, but they hate his guts instead.

What??? Gregor is the BIGGEST single example of the hypocrisy of knighthood. He took all those vows, to protect the weak and innocent etc yadda yadda, and still goes on to do what he does. THAT is the hypocrisy of knighthood....

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1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

I see no reason as to why Tywin would have been involved at all. A more plausible scenario is that Gregor performed well in some tourney or melee, perhaps the one at Lannisport. And as a PR stunt, no doubt committed by many ruling houses across the feudal spectrum in Westeros, Rhaegar knighted a bunch of people for their performance. Gregor was one of them. And to Rhaegar and Tywin Gregor was no doubt a newly made knight among many others and Rhaegar had probably forgotten about Gregor within a week of the event. Gregor was simply of no importance in those days.

For those who thinks that Tywin wanted knighthood for Gregor, why would he need that? The Lannisters makes perfect use of Sandor for various tasks and he isn't a knight nor do the Lannisters try to make him into one.

Finally Gregor does not expose any hypocrisy of knighthood. Gregor is hated and reviled by people for what he does, and untouchable because of his strength, that fact that he seldom leaves his own lands and Tywin's protection. If people had shrugged and said that Gregor knows how the world works so they don't hold it against him, that would have been hypocrisy, but they hate his guts instead.

I agree with everything but the 'he forgot about the 7 foot tall, 400 pound' guy he knighted a week ago part. I mean...he's pretty big.

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19 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

What??? Gregor is the BIGGEST single example of the hypocrisy of knighthood. He took all those vows, to protect the weak and innocent etc yadda yadda, and still goes on to do what he does. THAT is the hypocrisy of knighthood....

No, you see knighthood is an institution while Gregor is a person. And most knights hates Gregor for what he did and does and makes no excuses or shrugs it off. They hate him, period. If knighthood was a hypocrisy then people wouldn't have loved Arthur Dayne, Baelor Breakspear or Duncan the Tall or hated Gregor Clegane.

Its just a showing, in my mind, that swearing oaths in itself does not change people's fundamental nature. You need to believe in the oaths you swear in order for those oaths to have a value.

16 minutes ago, dmfn said:

I agree with everything but the 'he forgot about the 7 foot tall, 400 pound' guy he knighted a week ago part. I mean...he's pretty big.

Yeah, maybe that's to much.

So I'll rephrase it: Rhaegar had probably forgotten Gregor's name within a week. The Prince would only have some vague memory of a huge guy he knighted. The name of this, heir of a landed knight of no significance, would probably have slipped Rhaegar's mind within a week at most.

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9 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

No, you see knighthood is an institution while Gregor is a person. And most knights hates Gregor for what he did and does and makes no excuses or shrugs it off. They hate him, period. If knighthood was a hypocrisy then people wouldn't have loved Arthur Dayne, Baelor Breakspear or Duncan the Tall or hated Gregor Clegane.

Gregor is a KNIGHT. His brother said pretty much what knights are:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV

Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold. "Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you . . ."

"Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. "I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they're all meat, and I'm the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers." Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. "So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."

Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters. "Not even the men across the river?"

The institution of knighthood is made up of knights, puffed up like bladders with their honours.... knights like Gregor, or Amory Lorch, or the Kettleblacks or Mandon Moore or Boros Blount....or... well the list goes on

9 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Its just a showing, in my mind, that swearing oaths in itself does not change people's fundamental nature. You need to believe in the oaths you swear in order for those oaths to have a value.

Yes, and this is a large part of the hypocrisy of knighthood. It's conferred on hundreds if not thousands of unworthy people. If swearing of oaths does not change a man's nature, why does making him a knight supposedly change his status in society? That's further hypocrisy.

And if you don't believe in the oaths you swear, you are a HYPOCRITE. It's nearly the dictionary definition, FFS!!!

 

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12 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Gregor is a KNIGHT. His brother said pretty much what knights are:

The institution of knighthood is made up of knights, puffed up like bladders with their honours.... knights like Gregor, or Amory Lorch, or the Kettleblacks or Mandon Moore or Boros Blount....or... well the list goes on

Yes, and this is a large part of the hypocrisy of knighthood. It's conferred on hundreds if not thousands of unworthy people. If swearing of oaths does not change a man's nature, why does making him a knight supposedly change his status in society? That's further hypocrisy.

And if you don't believe in the oaths you swear, you are a HYPOCRITE. It's nearly the dictionary definition, FFS!!!

 

And that makes Gregor a hypocrit. It does not make knighthood into a hypocrasy.

And Sandor is not a man of great thinking, so even while you personally like what I says, I see it for his very personal opinion based on exactly ONE bad knight that he knew in his life.

No, that's part of the weakness in implementing theoretical ideals into practical reality. That comes back into every known attempt to make the world better that has been tried so far in human history. When something becomes mainstream or as common as knighthood it becomes something that men must do, as opposed to can do, and that leads people without real interest in it to pay lip service to it. And while the swearing of oaths is a thing that does not change a person, it makes that person possible to be critical of and to say that what he does is wrong. It sets a standard, a standard many ignores for sure, but that's true in most cases as well.

And I agree that if you make oaths that you don't believe in or follow then you are a hypocrit, but thing is that makes people hypocrits, it don't make the oaths hypocrasy in themselves.

But we're getting into abstract space here so I'll exemplify.

There is a law against murder. Police are supposed to uphold the law, thus don't murder. But we've seen policemen commit murder. What does that mean? It means that those policemen are hypocrits and unworthy of their positions.

But what it does not mean are...

...that the oncept of a law against murder is hypocrasy

...it does not mean that the concept of a police force is hypocrasy

What I want to say is that you want to raise individual hypocrits to question the concept of the institution. But if you can raise unwrothy men to say they mean that the institution is questionable then I can put forward worthy men, like Duncan the Tall, Baelor Breakspear and Arthur Dayne and say that these men proves the institution of knighthood is sound and good.

And then the discussion has boiled down to the two of us banging our heads together.

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20 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

He was very successful collector of taxes.

Not that we know. He was 15 when knighted, I'm not sure that he would have been in Tywin's direct employment in that time, plus the band of 'tax collectors' that were formed after the war of the nine penny kings is likely no longer in existence given that peace came to the Westerlands 20 years before Gregor's knghthood. 

 

3 hours ago, Faera said:

As others have suggested, I think it likely that Tywin simply called in a favour with Rhaegar. 

Why would he need to? Gregor was a 15 year old son of one of a landed knights, it would be unlikely that Tywin would care who knighted him, or even if he was knighted at all. 

Tywin and House Lannister would call in favors to have their own relatives (which there are plenty) knighted by the future king, it would be a wasted favor to ask for Gregor. 

Rhaegar was a regular at tourneys, like Barristan he was likely knighted at one for impressing. 

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41 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

There is a law against murder. Police are supposed to uphold the law, thus don't murder. But we've seen policemen commit murder. What does that mean? It means that those policemen are hypocrits and unworthy of their positions.

But what it does not mean are...

...that the oncept of a law against murder is hypocrasy

...it does not mean that the concept of a police force is hypocrasy

Good try, but no cigar.

The way knighthood operates in Westeros is that it makes you a 'superior person' simply for being a knight. Gregor Clegane is given the same styles and courtesies as Arthur Dayne. Regardless of what they'd done, in the king's feasting hall (for example) they'd both be seated above the salt - simply for being knights. Even Eddard Stark seated Ser Jaime 'Kingslayer' Lannister at his top table, and made his blameless bastard sit with the servants.

The difference between knights and policemen is that murdering policemen are treated as murderers. Murdering knights are still treated as knights. So long as bad knights are still treated as knights, then yes, the concept of knighthood is a hypocrisy, because it pretends to be something it is not. So long as it is pretended that knights are some sort of special person, then it is a hypocrisy. So long as knights go around 'Ser'-ing each other regardless of their deeds, it is a hypocrisy. If they start to clear out the stables and strip knighthoods off the likes of Gregor, then there may be some redemption.

A soiled cloak may well have a clean corner, but the cloak is still soiled.

 

 

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Knighthood is a product of the Faith of the 7 in this world. They are not strictly military personnel, police, nor role-models by design. They're an armed part of a hierarchy that (in a perfect world) would uphold (in a perfect world) the common values of the Fot7, which includes concepts that don't align with our modern values very well. But, by comparrison, a Christian who drinks too much, a policeman who takes a bribe, a doctor who charges too much money for medicine are all hypocrisy that get overlooked every day. I'm sorry, but a couple rapes and murders is pretty easy to forgive in Weseros if the culprit has other talents to offer.

Who knows what criterion are set for knighthood? But lords need knights, knights need lords, and shit happens.

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