Thoughts on Quaithe's prophecies

[constantanywhere]

I don't know if this has been touched on, or debated about, already, but I haven't been able to find anything on any of the asoiaf theory sites about this.

In Quaithe's first prophecy, she tells Dany, "To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." (pg. 426, ACoK)

Quaithe's prophecy in ADwD, Quaithe tells Dany, "Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." (Ch. 11, ADwD)

In ADwD, Tyrion is on the Selaesori Qhoran with Moqorro and Tyrion asks Moqorro what he sees in the flames. Moqorro responds, "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all." (Ch. 33, ADwD)

I have seen theories that debate whether Quaithe was talking about 3 or 6 people in her prophecy in ADwD. I personally believe she is talking of 3, but this works either way you look at it. In the first theory she says the Dany must pass beneath the shadow to touch the light. In the second theory, she warns to not trust the lion and the griffin, which most seem to agree speaks of Tyrion (at least the lion part), since he is looking for her. In Moqorro's words to Tyrion, he tells Tyrion that he sees him in the flames as a small man with a big shadow. So I guess the question I have been wrestling with this morning is, is Tyrion the shadow that Quaithe warns of?

[U. B. Cool]

Passing beneath the shadow is assumed to mean going to Asshai, but the author told us he is not taking the story there (but he reserves the right to change his mind), except perhaps in flashbacks.  Shadow also means the long night. 

Tyrion casting a big shadow means he will be influential.  His destiny is tied to the dragons: Dany, Aegon, and Bloodraven.  I do not believe he is a dragon but he will have equal importance in the story.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Quaithe doesn't seem to warn Dany about a shadow, she says she must pass beneath it.

Her warnings to Dany seem fairly clear to me with the exception of the perfumed seneschal which could refer to several people or the boat itself carrying several of them, though I doubt it refers to the boat.

Lion=Tyrion

Griffin=Jon Con

Kraken=Victarion and/or Euron

Dark Flame=Moqorro

Sons Sun=Quentyn Martell

Mummers dragon=Aegon

Most of moqorro's words to Tyrion seem simple as well.

He met Aemon and Jon, old and young. 

Then he met Aegon and will meet Dany, true and false. 

Bright and Dark seems to be more difficult.  Red could be bright, Black could be dark, in which case it would be Dany and Aegon again.  Or Jon could be considered Dark and Dany bright simply based on their hair and or disposition.  Bloodraven could certainly be considered dark as well.  Or he could be referring to the literal dragons.  Rhaegal and Viserion are in fact brightly colored, whereas Drogon is dark.

 

[Rufus Snow]

For some reason 'dragons bright and dark' make me think of Brightflame and Blackfyre, and though I think it's possible Young Griff might really be a Blackfyre, I don't recall seeing anyone who might be Brightflames...

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

For some reason 'dragons bright and dark' make me think of Brightflame and Blackfyre, and though I think it's possible Young Griff might really be a Blackfyre, I don't recall seeing anyone who might be Brightflames...

I've seen speculation that Varys coming from Lys indicates he could have descended from that line.

[chrisdaw]

The shadow to Dany is death. She will die and then enter a second life as a dragon and save the world, thus she must pass beneath the shadow (of death). The shadow to Tyrion works in two ways, first it speaks to the influence he will achieve, he will be king and thus his influence will be far reaching. The second is the large shadow he will cast on the ground as he rides his dragon.

[constantanywhere]

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Quaithe doesn't seem to warn Dany about a shadow, she says she must pass beneath it.

Her warnings to Dany seem fairly clear to me with the exception of the perfumed seneschal which could refer to several people or the boat itself carrying several of them, though I doubt it refers to the boat.

Lion=Tyrion

Griffin=Jon Con

Kraken=Victarion and/or Euron

Dark Flame=Moqorro

Sons Sun=Quentyn Martell

Mummers dragon=Aegon

Most of moqorro's words to Tyrion seem simple as well.

He met Aemon and Jon, old and young. 

Then he met Aegon and will meet Dany, true and false. 

Bright and Dark seems to be more difficult.  Red could be bright, Black could be dark, in which case it would be Dany and Aegon again.  Or Jon could be considered Dark and Dany bright simply based on their hair and or disposition.  Bloodraven could certainly be considered dark as well.  Or he could be referring to the literal dragons.  Rhaegal and Viserion are in fact brightly colored, whereas Drogon is dark.

 

Have you seen the theory about Quaithe's prophecy being about only 3 people? I'm leaning that way as far as that goes. Based on some of the reading I have done, this does seem a simplified explanation, but from what I have seen, most of what happens in these books is anything but simple. 

[constantanywhere]

35 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The shadow to Dany is death. She will die and then enter a second life as a dragon and save the world, thus she must pass beneath the shadow (of death). The shadow to Tyrion works in two ways, first it speaks to the influence he will achieve, he will be king and thus his influence will be far reaching. The second is the large shadow he will cast on the ground as he rides his dragon.

If you subscribe to the Tyrion is part Targ, I can see where the dragon riding comes in and I agree that Tyrion will have influence and that the shadow could insinuate that. As far as the rest, what have you read that lead you to those conclusions? I haven't seen anything in the series (either book or show) that indicates that any Targaryen dies and then is reborn as a literal dragon and I also have a hard time figuring out how it came about that Tyrion would somehow end up king.

[constantanywhere]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

For some reason 'dragons bright and dark' make me think of Brightflame and Blackfyre, and though I think it's possible Young Griff might really be a Blackfyre, I don't recall seeing anyone who might be Brightflames...

I am completely on board with Young Griff being a Blackfyre. I have read too much that heavily supports that theory. Now I want to look into who the bright dragon could be!

[constantanywhere]

5 hours ago, Italian Tune Up said:

Passing beneath the shadow is assumed to mean going to Asshai, but the author told us he is not taking the story there (but he reserves the right to change his mind), except perhaps in flashbacks.  Shadow also means the long night. 

Tyrion casting a big shadow means he will be influential.  His destiny is tied to the dragons: Dany, Aegon, and Bloodraven.  I do not believe he is a dragon but he will have equal importance in the story.

So you believe that Tyrion is in fact a Lannister? 

And that brings me to another question. Quaithe says truth when Dany asks if she means Asshai after the first prophecy. What are your thoughts on what that means?

[Sensenmenn]

8 minutes ago, constantanywhere said:

I am completely on board with Young Griff being a Blackfyre. I have read too much that heavily supports that theory. Now I want to look into who the bright dragon could be!

Darkstar

[constantanywhere]

15 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Darkstar

Explanation please? I'm interested in why! 

(I just read the books for the first time, so I am still learning the history and stuff behind people and I am honestly interested. :))

[Sensenmenn]

22 minutes ago, constantanywhere said:

Explanation please? I'm interested in why! 

(I just read the books for the first time, so I am still learning the history and stuff behind people and I am honestly interested. :))

I saw it brought up in a speculation thread a while back that it might be possible that a female descendant of magor married into the lesser branche of house dayne and produced Darkstar. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

11 hours ago, constantanywhere said:

Explanation please? I'm interested in why! 

(I just read the books for the first time, so I am still learning the history and stuff behind people and I am honestly interested. :))

It's a theory GRRM debunked, people made up lots of theories about him because of the whole "most dangerous man in Dorne" line.

11 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

I saw it brought up in a speculation thread a while back that it might be possible that a female descendant of magor married into the lesser branche of house dayne and produced Darkstar. 

 

[dmfn]

The perfumed seneschal gots to be Varys, right? 

Dragons dark and bright: dragon-steel maybe? Typical Valyrian steel is almost black. Could be a few different swords. Longclaw, perhaps, so Jon. There are the red and black swords created from Ice being reforged, Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper. Jaime has WW (i think), Briene has OK. Also, possibly Dawn might be an older type of 'dragon-steel'. Who knows who will/can claim it. So those swords and their holders could certainly imply our most logical characters for Dany to interact with.

Of course GRRM has said 99 times prophecy don't mean shit, or something similar.

[Megorova]

On 7/24/2018 at 8:26 PM, constantanywhere said:

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.

Old dragons - Aemon Targaryen, Bloodraven, Quaithe/Shiera Seastar/three-eyed crow, Varys.

Young dragons - Dany, Rhaego, Young Griff/Aegon VI Targaryen-Blackfyre, Jon Snow/Aegon VII Targaryen.

True dragons/Targaryens - Dany, Jon, Rhaego. False dragons - other dragonseeds, that are not Targaryens.

Bright AND dark dragons - Varys and fAegon, who are descendants of Targaryens, Aerion Brightflame and Calla Blackfyre + Bittersteel.

While first two definitions - old/young and true/false - can't be both things at once, the third one - bright/dark, doesn't exclude each other, because people in this category, could be simultaneously descendants of Aerion Targaryen and Blackfyres. GRRM said, that when Aerion was in exile in Lys, he could have fathered there several children. So I think, that Varys and Illyrio's wife, Serra, are brother and sister, and that they are descendants of Aerion Brightflame, Calla Blackfyre + Bittersteel, and Saera Targaryen. So they are bright, because they are descendants of Aerion Brightflame, and dark, because they are descendants of Blackfyres.

I think, that possibly, GRRM is using patterns in his books, to give hints to readers. For example:

• Bellegere Otherys - mistress of Aegon IV, Summer Islander, became a courtesan, known as the Black Pearl of Braavos;
• her daughter - Bellenora Otherys - same as her mother, became a courtesan, and was the Black Pearl of Braavos;
• their descendant - Bellonara Otherys - same things, as previous two;
• Bellonara's daughter - Bellegere Otherys, current Black Pearl of Braavos. "She is young and lovely, with black hair, light brown skin and full breasts. A Braavosi girl named Mercy believes the name the Brown Pearl would be more fitting, due to Bellegere's light brown skin colour."

Those four women have several things in common: 1. similar names (begins with Bell); 2. same/similar occupation - courtesans; 3. same location - Braavos; 4. same ethnicity - Summer Islands.

First Bellegere became Aegon's mistress in 161. Even though since then has passed 139 years, her descendants still have Summer Islander looks - dark skin and dark hair. Several generations worked as courtesans in Braavos' brothel. And Brravos is a city with international port, that have many visitors from Westeros, and from all over Essos. So theoretically, it would have been more likely, for Bellegere's current descendant to look like Ghiscari, or Dothraki, or Westerosi, than to still have Summer Islander looks/ethnicity. So it's the same thing, as always black-haired Baratheons - their looks, same as looks of those Bells from Braavos, were preserved intentionally.

GRRM made all Baratheons to look alike, and all Otheryses to look alike, because it's part of a pattern, that he has used to show, that those people are blood-related. Also, if the pattern is broken, it means, that something fishy is going on. The break of a pattern is a clue, same as existence of a pattern.

Examples of broken patterns: 1. Robert's children from Cersei, didn't looked like typical Baratheons; conclusion - they are not Baratheons. 2. Ned's children looked like their Tully mother. All, except Jon. Conclusion - Jon is not Ned's child. Etc.

So, based on this patterns, if two people have similar names, occupation, looks/ethnicity, location/place of origin, then, could be, that they are blood-related.

Examples of other patterns:

SAllAdhoR Saan, Lysene, pirate - SAmARro Saan, Lysene, pirate, member of Band of Nine, the instigators of the War of the Ninepenny Kings/Fifth Rebellion of Blackfyres.

Jalabhar Xho, exiled prince from Summer Islands, was member of royal court at Red Keep - Xhobar Qhoqua, exiled prince from Summer Islands, member of Band of Nine. JalaBhAR XHO - XHO BAR Qhoqua. Both have similar names, both are from Summer Islands, both are exiled princes, and both ended up in Westeros, where apparently both of them will also die (Ninepenny King died years ago, while his possible descendant, was imprisoned by Faith militant, for supposedly having an affair with Margaery Tyrell).

Member of Band of Nine - Liomond Lashare, the Lord of Battles, a famed sellsword captain. Sharako Lohar - Triarchy's admiral from Lys. LASHARe - LohAr SHARako. Both - Band of Nine and the Triarchy - were anti-Targaryen organisations, and both eventually lost to Targaryens.

ChAtAYA - owner of whorehouse in King's Landing, Summer Islander. AlAyAYA - Chataya's daughter, and whore in her mother's establishment.

So it could be, that Illyrio's wife, SErRA, is a descendant of SaERA Targaryen. Because they have similar names, similar looks/ethnicity - Valyrian, both at certain time lived in Lys, and both were involved in pleasure industry - Saera was owner of pleasure house in Volantis, and Serra worked at pillow house in Lys.

After leaving Westeros, Saera stayed in Lys for a while. So I think, that it's possible, that, while she was there, she made a deal with someone - she gave birth to a Valyrian child, and sold him/her to be trained as sex-slave. Pure Valyrian looks were very valued in Lys. So could be, that owner of certain establishment in Lys, offered a deal to Saera, and gave to her lots of money, to have her pureblooded child. And later, using this money, Saera has moved to Volantis, and started there her own business. Then, same as descendants of Aegon IV's mistress, first Bellegere Otherys, descendants of Saera Targaryen for many generations were working in pleasure industry.

Also, somewhere between 209 and 219, into genetic pool of Saera's descendants, were added genes of Aerion Brightflame. He was temporarely sent into exile, after Tournament at Ashford in 209. During his exile, he was member of Second Sons. It's likely, that sellswords are frequent visitors of such establishments. 

Aegor Bittesteel, founder of Golden Company, was married to Calla Blackfyre, daughter of Daemon I Blackfyre. If they had children, particularly sons, then, most likely, those sons, same as their father, were members of Golden Company. So it's likely, that eventually one of them has visited certain brothel/pillow house in Lys, and had an intercourse with one of Saera's descendants, that also was carrier of Brightflame's genes. So, the child or children, that were born after that, were carriers of Targaryen genes from Saera Targaryen, Brightflame genes from Aerion, and Blackfyre and Bittersteel's genes from child of Calla and Aegor. Eventually one of those descendants gave birth to Varys, and his sister Serra. Which makes Illyrio, Varys' brother-in-law.

Thus, Varys could be both - bright and dark dragon, Brightflame and Blackfyre.