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Harrold Hardyng/Arryn isn't meant to further Sansa's story


Frey Kings

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Until Winds is released...I don't believe the author purposely wrote in the 'Harry the Heir' subplot into the story to accommodate Sansa. There's been plenty of Sansa's threads and I didn't want to derail the thread. Its more of killing 2 birds with one stone. Also addressing the succession crisis.

IMO: One of the Story's strongest storyline is the death of one of the greatest house in the series  that is seen through little Robert Arryn's eyes and thoughts. With questionable heritage (LF you are the father!) Harrold will inherit the Vale and will NOT end up marrying Sansa. Also Harry is not a jerk. He's of high noble birth and presumptive heir to Vale. No signs of being a psychopath either. 

Obviously I'm cheering for Robert Arryn to overcome his illness and turns into a total bada$$ and kicks LF's scheming a$$ and marries his cousin and slays both a white walker and a dragon with one thrust of his sword.

 

But this series isn't about happy endings. 

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Harry will most likely get killed in a tourney against one of those guys with webbed feet. Strong Robin will start getting better, assemble his lords and winged-kingsguard and be declared King of Mountain and Vale, the Trident and the North through a marriage with Sansa. Yes he's too young to produce children but if Tommen can marry Margaery and make her a queen Robin can get the North through Sansa. The Vale  has stayed out of the wars and has food reserves, Robert Arryn will be a force to be reckoned with.

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Harry the heir was brought up by Catelyn in ASOS. She was telling Robb who the heir to the North would be should he die, now that Bran and Rickon are presumed dead. I think there are two more boys after Harry that could claim the North. Robb's reply was something like, "why should some Vale lordling's who've never even seen Winterfell have a claim on it. My father had another son who's claim should be better." The Vale is in a position where they could really help other kingdom's survive the winter, but will they. Robyn's been sheltered his whole life and comes off as a douche even if Sansa can smarten him up. Plus, these proud lords and knights probably won't rally behind a sickly young boy, regardless of who his father was. I don't know about Harry. The Vale is also in a position where they could mess stuff up and cause a lot of damage to other kingdoms depending on who's pulling the strings - Littlefinger. 

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Harrold Hardyng/Arryn isn't meant to further Sansa's story

I agree with this and with subsequent comments from @LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse and @Ralphis Baratheon. I just worked out some ideas about Ser Humfrey Hardyng, who appears in The Hedge Knight as a participant in the tourney at Ashford Meadow. In a nutshell, his role in the story was allegorical (symbolic) and advanced the plot only insofar as he interacted with the important characters (Princes Baelor and Aerion Brightflame). I suspect the same will be true for Harry the Heir as it was for his Hardyng ancestor (cousin?). Humfrey Hardyng's fate in that story probably foreshadows Harrold's fate in TWoW or ADoS.

For what it's worth, examination of the word "diamonds" in the books told me that the diamond sigil of House Hardyng is linked to dragon teeth and that led me to infer a biter / bitter wordplay connection. Ser Humfrey Hardyng is paired with Ser Humfrey Beesbury in a jousting match that comes to be known as The Battle of Humfrey. Because of the honey / bees connection, Beesbury may represent "sweet" battling with Hardyng's bitter. But sweet does not mean that Beesbury always represents a happy ending: he is also killed at Ashford Meadow and honey is identified (in ADwD) as something that causes teeth to rot.

8 hours ago, Mooncalf said:

Harry the heir was brought up by Catelyn in ASOS. She was telling Robb who the heir to the North would be should he die, now that Bran and Rickon are presumed dead.

This raises an interesting point, but I'm not sure that Harry "the heir" Hardyng (heir to the Eyrie after Sweetrobin) is the same person Catelyn had in mind as a Stark heir for Winterfell. There is a tantalizing connection, but I don't believe it is established that Harry is the same person Catelyn described:

"Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . . "

(ASoS, Chapter 45, Catelyn V)

Littlefinger explains the Arryn-related pedigree of Harrold Hardyng:

Lord Jasper Arryn, begin with him. Jon Arryn's father. He begot three children, two sons and a daughter. Jon was the eldest, so the Eyrie and the lordship passed to him. His sister Alys wed Ser Elys Waynwood, uncle to the present Lady Waynwood. . . . Lord Jasper's younger son, Ser Ronnel Arryn, wed a Belmore girl, but only rang her once or twice before dying of a bad belly. Their son Elbert was being born in one bed even as poor Ronnel was dying in another down the hall. . . .

. . . Now, Jon Arryn married thrice, but his first two wives gave him no children, so for long years his nephew Elbert was his heir. Meantime, Elys was plowing Alys quite dutifully, and she was whelping once a year. She gave him nine children, eight girls and one precious little boy, another Jasper, after which she died exhausted. . . . [Various things caused eight of the nine children to die, join the Silent Sisters, produce no children, be disowned, or be kidnapped.] That left the youngest, who wed a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods, gave him a son that she named Harrold, and perished.

(AFfC, Chapter 41, Alayne II)

If Catelyn was mistaken about the name of the third daughter's husband, I suppose she could have married a Hardyng instead of a Templeton. But it seems as if people would have been aware if the landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods had Royce and Stark connections. Littlefinger doesn't mention this, although it might just suit his purposes to leave that out of the information he wants Sansa to have.

The children of Lady Waynwood could be potential Stark heirs, based on Catelyn's recollection that one of the Royce daughters married a Waynwood, but Littlefinger is clear that Harry the Heir is just a ward of Lady Waynwood, not her heir.

Littlefinger doesn't mention any Royces at all in the long story of the Arryn marriages, and it seems unlikely that Harry could be related to the three Royce daughters listed by Catelyn. I have to admit, though, that GRRM isn't slamming the door on the possibility, and the common Waynwood element in both stories may prove to be an important link.

Has the Stark bloodline in the Riverlands been explored in other threads? I'd be curious whether others see potential Stark - Arryn crossover among these complicated bloodlines. It's interesting to note that the Stark sister married into the junior branch of the Royces, and Alayne has just met Myranda and gone to stay the winter at the castle Littlefinger just promised to the junior branch. Is Myranda her distant cousin?

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22 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Until Winds is released...I don't believe the author purposely wrote in the 'Harry the Heir' subplot into the story to accommodate Sansa. There's been plenty of Sansa's threads and I didn't want to derail the thread. Its more of killing 2 birds with one stone. Also addressing the succession crisis.

IMO: One of the Story's strongest storyline is the death of one of the greatest house in the series  that is seen through little Robert Arryn's eyes and thoughts. With questionable heritage (LF you are the father!) Harrold will inherit the Vale and will NOT end up marrying Sansa. Also Harry is not a jerk. He's of high noble birth and presumptive heir to Vale. No signs of being a psychopath either. 

Obviously I'm cheering for Robert Arryn to overcome his illness and turns into a total bada$$ and kicks LF's scheming a$$ and marries his cousin and slays both a white walker and a dragon with one thrust of his sword.

 

But this series isn't about happy endings. 

Sansa is one of the "big 6" main characters of the series, so the Vale story essentially revolves around her.  The characters in the Vale are, IMO, there primarily as supporting cast (even LF, who has become Sansa's main antagonist.  That is not to say that characters like Robert and Harrold won't have a story, but it will probably be one that ultimately serves Sansa's.

19 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Harry the heir was made up, after george dropped the 5 year gap.

Robert arryn is just to young to marry and father a children, therefore george needed an adult arryn for littlefinger to plan sansas betrothal.

but no, LFs plans wont work. Sweetrobin will survive. 

I doubt this.  Even with the 5 year gap, Robert would only be about 13, which is still too young, especially under the original plan.  If George was planning something like that for Robert, he would have made him older to start with.

 

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22 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Obviously I'm cheering for Robert Arryn to overcome his illness and turns into a total bada$$ and kicks LF's scheming a$$ and marries his cousin and slays both a white walker and a dragon with one thrust of his sword. 

what book are you reading? because it isn't ASoIaF

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Littlefinger is analogous to Primo Varicella from the interactive fiction "Varicella". Both are machiavellains who murder their way into a regency (although Primo is better at keeping his hands clean, partly because he hates touching people). Logically, therefore Robyn Arryn must be analogous to little Prince Charles, who grows up to be

Spoiler

Charles the Terror, who publicly tortures his former regent to death over a period of days for being one of the last holdouts in his wave of conquests.

:)

Oh, and this makes Harold Hardyng analogous to Prince Louis, who is not especially important but is one of the people who must be dealt with.

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The whole Vale and all its supporting characters including LF is to serve Sansa's story. And Sansa's story is to show the Game of Thrones done right, not honourably, but competently. Harry will be a lesson in the Game of Thrones.

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38 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The whole Vale and all its supporting characters including LF is to serve Sansa's story. And Sansa's story is to show the Game of Thrones done right, not honourably, but competently. Harry will be a lesson in the Game of Thrones.

I think Sansa's story will involve playing the Game of Thrones with a sense of honor, but more competently than her father did.  Honor mixed with a sense of pragmatism.

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