Brienne of Tarth lack of bethrothal or husband very ODD

[Jaak]

How much would Selwyn like Lord Protector Podrick of Tarth?

[Sigella]

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It could be some sort of social prejudice... Idk, while we have a few good examples in the North, such as Alysane Mormont (and Jory and Lyra, even if we haven't met them yet), Dacey, Lyanna, and Maege, also Asha... there's nothing like these ladies in the south, is there? Other than Brienne,  that is.

 

Sorry for butting in but I have to point out Sand Snakes, Visenya, Wenda the White Fawn and Nettles.

[Lord Varys]

@Clegane'sPup

Men-at-arms are not retainers. I was specifically talking about household knights, etc. above.

If Lord Selwyn cared for the military prowess of his daughter or wanted to show 'King Renly' that he wanted his daughter to represent the island and Evenstar of Tarth in his army, then it is very odd that Brienne didn't have her own squire(s) and her own entourage of Tarth household knights.

She comes off as the same kind of sellsword knight that Robar Royce is - she has pretty much little more to offer than herself and her own sword. She does not show up with the assembled power of House Tarth behind her - however meager that might be.

And since we know Lord Selwyn actually agreed to meet with Davos, chances are the Evenstar wasn't exactly decided on which Baratheon pretender he intends to support. Brienne wanted to go to Renly and so he let her go. But why didn't he show up himself?

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Sorry for butting in but I have to point out Sand Snakes, Visenya, Wenda the White Fawn and Nettles.

Thanks. I knew I was missing somebody.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Sorry for butting in but I have to point out Sand Snakes, Visenya, Wenda the White Fawn and Nettles.

Nettles isn't a warrior woman. She just became a dragonrider.

Aside from, perhaps, Dorne, there is no place in the Seven Kingdoms where warrior women are cherished or accepted. The fact that women do it at times - or are forced to do it - doesn't make their men or their culture accept them. We see this with the Mormont women who are not, in fact, comfortable with their lives as women in a world where women cannot be warriors. They are shy and awkward around 'proper women', just as Brienne is.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

...The fact that women do it at times - or are forced to do it - doesn't make their men or their culture accept them. We see this with the Mormont women who are not, in fact, comfortable with their lives as women in a world where women cannot be warriors. They are shy and awkward around 'proper women', just as Brienne is.

Tomboys frequently are, even if they desperately would like to be like a "proper woman". Some grow out of it and some don't.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

Tomboys frequently are, even if they desperately would like to be like a "proper woman". Some grow out of it and some don't.

But neither Brienne nor the Mormont women are 'tomboys'. Brienne is a Sansa in the body of man, basically, and the Mormont women have been forced into marital lifestyle by necessity.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

But neither Brienne nor the Mormont women are 'tomboys'. Brienne is a Sansa in the body of man, basically, and the Mormont women have been forced into marital lifestyle by necessity.

Brienne has grown out of it, but her awkwardness won't let her. If she really was a Sansa inside all of her life she never would have taken up arms in the first place. She's not in the Mormonts' position. Her father can afford men and/or is not in a precarious position (although I'm sure piracy is a concern).

I remember the part about the Mormont women being weird around the other ladies, but it didn't strike me as that they were bothered too much about it. I'll have to pay more attention to that on my next reread.

[Unacosamedarisa]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And since we know Lord Selwyn actually agreed to meet with Davos, chances are the Evenstar wasn't exactly decided on which Baratheon pretender he intends to support.

Or, he's just a nice man, and wanted to tell Davos in person of his refusal to support Stannis. Because he doesn't support Stannis, he doesn't ask Davos to tell Stannis anything, try to deal with Davos for his support. There's nothing to suggest he was undecided. He refuses to support Stannis. It's just that he's a decent enough type to tell Davos that to his face. If you read the passage it's mentioned in again, you'll see that's the point of the passage (as well as informing us that Stannis has no support).

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"All? No. Only those that would see me. They do not love me either, these highborns. To them I'll always be the Onion Knight." His left hand closed, stubby fingers locking into a fist; Stannis had hacked the ends off at the last joint, all but the thumb. "I broke bread with Gulian Swann and old Penrose, and the Tarths consented to a midnight meeting in a grove." 

This is telling us Davos/Stannis was rejected by the Storm Lords, that they view him as the Onion Knight, and that only these people had the manners to actually refuse him to his face.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nettles isn't a warrior woman. She just became a dragonrider.

Aside from, perhaps, Dorne, there is no place in the Seven Kingdoms where warrior women are cherished or accepted. The fact that women do it at times - or are forced to do it - doesn't make their men or their culture accept them. We see this with the Mormont women who are not, in fact, comfortable with their lives as women in a world where women cannot be warriors. They are shy and awkward around 'proper women', just as Brienne is.

Yeah in my book all dragon riders that battle in wars do count as warriors because they meet the terms even if they don't do actual sword-fighting. Certainly it could be argued that the dragon is the warrior and not the rider - but the dragon doesn't make war without a rider so it doesn't hold up.

 

also: Asha seems plenty cherished among the IB 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

Brienne has grown out of it, but her awkwardness won't let her. If she really was a Sansa inside all of her life she never would have taken up arms in the first place. She's not in the Mormonts' position. Her father can afford men and/or is not in a precarious position (although I'm sure piracy is a concern).

Brienne is pretty much a woman in a man's body. Her ugliness in combination with the body she is cursed with makes it impossible for her to properly play the role of a noblewoman in the world she is living in. She is neither delicate nor fair. Her idealism leads her to try to play the role of the gallant knight (although she originally just uses that role to get close to the man she loves in a very conventional sense).

If some fairy granted Brienne a wish she wouldn't wish to be accepted in the world she lives in the way she is - she would either wish to be a proper woman or a proper man.

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

I remember the part about the Mormont women being weird around the other ladies, but it didn't strike me as that they were bothered too much about it. I'll have to pay more attention to that on my next reread.

We don't see the Mormont women much, but the point is that the Bear Islander women are freaks by Northern standards. That much is clear.

I mean, we get even hints that Visenya not being a proper woman is part of the reason why Aegon was drawn more to Rhaenys - the proper woman - than to her. Yes, she also had a rather difficult character and all, but Aegon clearly liked his sister-wife to be a more conventional womanly woman rather than one who might have been as great a warrior as he was, and who actually saved his life on a couple of occasions. Men in this setting want to be the ones to save and protect their women, not the other way around.

1 hour ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

This is telling us Davos/Stannis was rejected by the Storm Lords, that they view him as the Onion Knight, and that only these people had the manners to actually refuse him to his face.

There are three Baratheon pretenders, not just two. Sure, Selwyn doesn't support Stannis, but he also doesn't support Renly with many men, nor does he show up to swear fealty to Joffrey after Renly is dead and Stannis defeated. 

13 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Yeah in my book all dragon riders that battle in wars do count as warriors because they meet the terms even if they don't do actual sword-fighting. Certainly it could be argued that the dragon is the warrior and not the rider - but the dragon doesn't make war without a rider so it doesn't hold up.

A dragon doesn't make you a warrior, and that is made clear in the books. Visenya was a warrior, Rhaenys was not. And neither were Rhaenyra, Laena, Helaena, or even Baela warriors. They were just women riding dragons.

[Bernie Mac]

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Yes, I suppose I do view Selwyn as a "progressive" lord in the setting. There is no indication in the text that he just sort of gave up on Brienne.

There kind of is, the betrothal of his 16 year old daughter to a 65 year old minor noble is an indication of this. 

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After all, he could have disowned her, he could have locked her up, etc. But he didn't do any of those things.

How many fathers in the series have publicly disowned their children? And how is this evidence that Selwyn is this great father? You are setting the bar very low if  this is your evidence. 

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He also tries to ransom her. 

He lowballs the Bloody Mummer's for his heir and only legitimate child. This is hardly evidence of him being any different from the average lordly father, Tywin actually went to war when his son was captured. Walder Frey does not haggle on the price when he pays the ransoms for sons, grandsons and bastards captured on the Green Fork or by the Brave Companions.

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I recall someone else (sorry, can't remember who it was) saying it seems Selwyn was a "womaniser". I disagree. The possibility exists, for sure, but what little we get on him seems to be positive. Brienne thinks fondly of him.

She is pretty neutral on him.  Can you quote the times she thinks fondly of him?

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And the one time she thinks about the ladies her father entertained, her memories are no bitter. It would have been easy to give a bit more and paint these ladies as "evil stepmums", and yet we get none of that.

Parmours are not step moms in this society, you are still looking at this from an entirely modern viewpoint.  There would be little interaction between child and the Lord's paramour. 

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It's possible for a man to enjoy women w/o being a womanising arsehole. Hell, it's also possible to be a promiscuous man w/o being a womanising prick. .

It is also possible that one of the few notable things Brienne tells us about her father, his different paramour each year, meant he had little involvement in her upbringing. 

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It could be some sort of social prejudice... Idk, while we have a few good examples in the North, such as Alysane Mormont (and Jory and Lyra, even if we haven't met them yet), Dacey, Lyanna, and Maege, also Asha... there's nothing like these ladies in the south, is there? Other than Brienne,  that is.

We don't really see it in the North either, Bear Island is the only place there were the women are trained to defend themselves due to the Ironborn raids.

[Sigella]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A dragon doesn't make you a warrior, and that is made clear in the books. Visenya was a warrior, Rhaenys was not. And neither were Rhaenyra, Laena, Helaena, or even Baela warriors. They were just women riding dragons.

Yeah they rode them to battle and burned armies and castles, making them warriors. Do our distinctions differ, like you seem to mean "soldier" more than "warrior"?

Or is it the "rider is once removed" like Mel ins't a warrior though her magic is super harmful (maybe even during battles) or that a poisoner isn't a warrior because there isn't a battle? I at a loss. 

[Unacosamedarisa]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Selwyn doesn't support Stannis, but he also doesn't support Renly with many men, nor does he show up to swear fealty to Joffrey after Renly is dead and Stannis defeated. 

We don't know how many men Selwyn sent to Renly... Just that he did send men to him... 

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"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king. All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power."

And he sent his only daughter to him as well, to act as a bodyguard/sworn sword, and Selwyn even bigged Brienne up to Renly... 

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"You are all your lord father claimed you were." Renly's voice carried over the field. "I've seen Ser Loras unhorsed once or twice . . . but never quite in that fashion."

So, of the three Baratheon pretenders, he gives Renly troops and his only child, he gives Stannis a refusal, and he gives Joffrey nothing (it seems). To me, that seems like support for Renly. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Brienne is pretty much a woman in a man's body. Her ugliness in combination with the body she is cursed with makes it impossible for her to properly play the role of a noblewoman in the world she is living in. She is neither delicate nor fair. Her idealism leads her to try to play the role of the gallant knight (although she originally just uses that role to get close to the man she loves in a very conventional sense).

If some fairy granted Brienne a wish she wouldn't wish to be accepted in the world she lives in the way she is - she would either wish to be a proper woman or a proper man.

...

We don't see the Mormont women much, but the point is that the Bear Islander women are freaks by Northern standards. That much is clear.

Being a cow in a dress (sorry ladies) didn't stop Lollys Stokeworth from acting feminine and it didn't stop Bronn from marrying her. Now, Bronn was social climbing, so he went for it. Lord Selwyn obviously hopes for a better match for his daughter. Brienne does what she does by choice because of circumstances and, yes, a certain amount of misplaced idealism. But I still maintain that she never would have trained at arms if she wasn't partial to it. It takes years to train and she's good at it too by all accounts.

As far as the northerners, I don't think they see the Mormonts as freaks. Even Ned is willing to entertain Arya's tomboy-ness when he sees she is serious about it. Jon certainly encouraged it. Mikken made the blade. I think Ned hopes Arya will grow out of it and I'm sure he feels Catelyn would be appalled, which is why he keeps it from her.

[Clegane'sPup]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Clegane'sPup

Men-at-arms are not retainers. I was specifically talking about household knights, etc. above.

If Lord Selwyn cared for the military prowess of his daughter or wanted to show 'King Renly' that he wanted his daughter to represent the island and Evenstar of Tarth in his army, then it is very odd that Brienne didn't have her own squire(s) and her own entourage of Tarth household knights.

She comes off as the same kind of sellsword knight that Robar Royce is - she has pretty much little more to offer than herself and her own sword. She does not show up with the assembled power of House Tarth behind her - however meager that might be.

And since we know Lord Selwyn actually agreed to meet with Davos, chances are the Evenstar wasn't exactly decided on which Baratheon pretender he intends to support. Brienne wanted to go to Renly and so he let her go. But why didn't he show up himself?

Well, you and I are gonna have to agree to disagree again. Terminology about household knights, squires, entourage, sellswords are irrelevant to what I was trying to say.

Brienne was raised privileged. Her father let her train. Whether her father was glad to get rid of her I lean to the idea that her father loved her.

It did seem to me that her father after the last marriage proposal failed, allowed Brienne be Brienne. Like I said, I prefer to believe her father let her go on her adventure. Unfortunately Brienne learned what people thought and what Westeros is like the hard way.

 

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Brienne was raised privileged. Her father let her train. Whether her father was glad to get rid of her I lean to the idea that her father loved her.

Oh, I didn't say he didn't love her. I just said we don't know his feelings for his daughter and the way he doesn't interact with her during the course of the novels doesn't imply he dotes on her to a very high degree. And while we don't know Selwyn Tarth we should not necessarily daydream about him being the best dad in the world.

23 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It did seem to me that her father after the last marriage proposal failed, allowed Brienne be Brienne. Like I said, I prefer to believe her father let her go on her adventure. Unfortunately Brienne learned what people thought and what Westeros is like the hard way.

Brienne didn't go 'adventuring' as such, though. She didn't decide to pull a Dunk and hit the road. She went to join her king. And what's odd is that her father does nothing to contact her in a proper way, even after she stands accused of murdering Renly. If I was a loving father I'd try my best to find out what my little girl was up to there. And after her name was cleared I'd like her to return back home rather than go on some fool's errand.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On July 29, 2018 at 3:20 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, I suppose I do view Selwyn as a "progressive" lord in the setting. There is no indication in the text that he just sort of gave up on Brienne. After all, he could have disowned her, he could have locked her up, etc. But he didn't do any of those things. And we know he allowed her to train at arms. He also tries to ransom her.  Also, she has all the gear she needs, which seem to suggest that yes, he gave up on making a match for her, but he didn't give up on her. 

 

Selywn literally offers the standard offering for a knight in response to Hoat's capture of Briene. A man whose notorious for barbarity. That's literally it. 300 dragons is not the type of offering a lord offers for when his beloved child gets kidnapped-House Tarth Isn't rich but it should be able to afford much more than that. He is low balling Hoat. The offer(though small it is) itself is likely just for appearances; like doing nothing at all in response would look bad on Tarley here. Even if was too poor to actually give a bigger ransom for Briene(really it's unlikely), If he truly loved Briene, he would have done what @Lord Varyssaid, actually went to the red keep, to actually plead with the crown in helping aid him, Briene was captured in her mission to get the king's uncle home, they owe house Tarth, him not doing so shows a overall lack of care for Briene's well-being.

Her having gear means nothing; the castle's blacksmith would provide it with no real questions, if Tarley doesn't really care what Briene does, there's no reason for the blacksmith to say no; or maybe she took some parts from the armory. 

On July 29, 2018 at 3:20 PM, kissdbyfire said:

t could be some sort of social prejudice... Idk, while we have a few good examples in the North, such as Alysane Mormont (and Jory and Lyra, even if we haven't met them yet), Dacey, Lyanna, and Maege, also Asha... there's nothing like these ladies in the south, is there? Other than Brienne,  that is

I think there's been a grudging understanding  of the Mormont woman morphing into what they are due to periodic raids from wildlings and Iron who come to steal they're women to rape. I mean we see men say ridiculously sexist things about women in their presence with no one really objecting or reacting with surprise including the Mormonts; it's not just the south whose sexist, women are seen as the weaker there as well, Jon(whose an uber progressive given his context), still makes has a sexist moment(ex. sparring Ygritte initially because of her gender). 

 

[Nevets]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Brienne didn't go 'adventuring' as such, though. She didn't decide to pull a Dunk and hit the road. She went to join her king. And what's odd is that her father does nothing to contact her in a proper way, even after she stands accused of murdering Renly. If I was a loving father I'd try my best to find out what my little girl was up to there. And after her name was cleared I'd like her to return back home rather than go on some fool's errand.

Brienne hasn't exactly been contactable  Between being with Catelyn, escorting Jaime, and looking for Sansa, she would be pretty hard to contact.  I doubt Selwyn even knows where his daughter is right now.

One thing I find surprising is how many posters seem to think she is an old maid with no hope of marriage.  She isn't even 20 yet.  There is still plenty of time.  It's not like Edmure Tully or Willas Tyrell, who are heirs and unmarried in their 30s, which is REALLY odd.

[Clegane'sPup]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I didn't say he didn't love her. I just said we don't know his feelings for his daughter and the way he doesn't interact with her during the course of the novels doesn't imply he dotes on her to a very high degree. And while we don't know Selwyn Tarth we should not necessarily daydream about him being the best dad in the world.

Brienne didn't go 'adventuring' as such, though. She didn't decide to pull a Dunk and hit the road. She went to join her king. And what's odd is that her father does nothing to contact her in a proper way, even after she stands accused of murdering Renly. If I was a loving father I'd try my best to find out what my little girl was up to there. And after her name was cleared I'd like her to return back home rather than go on some fool's errand.

You and I know how martin described Brienne. You and I know what martin wrote as to the Westeros peoples reaction to Brienne.

It is my opinion that Brienne has innocent idealized opines as to what and who is "honorable" due to her father.

People in story view Brienne as a goofball. She rarely gets peer respect.

I would verra much like it if Brienne goes home.

Brienne does have her own personal code of conduct.

Why did martin put this freakishly large woman in a pink dress and given a blunted sword to fight a bear only to have Jaime come back to save her?

Why did martin have her face the multitude of humiliations?

FfC Brienne VI     The freakish one, not fit to be a son or daughter." All of it came pouring out of Brienne then, like black blood from a wound; the betrayals and betrothals,
Red Ronnet and his rose,
Lord Renly dancing with her,
the wager for her maidenhead,
the bitter tears she shed the night her king wed Margaery Tyrell,
the mêlée at Bitterbridge,
the rainbow cloak that she had been so proud of,
the shadow in the king's pavilion,
Renly dying in her arms,
Riverrun and Lady Catelyn,
the voyage down the Trident,
dueling Jaime in the woods,
the Bloody Mummers, Jaime crying "Sapphires,"
Jaime in the tub at Harrenhal with steam rising from his body,
the taste of Vargo Hoat's blood when she bit down on his ear,
the bear pit, Jaime leaping down onto the sand,
the long ride to King's Landing,
Sansa Stark, the vow she'd sworn to Jaime, the vow she'd sworn to Lady Catelyn,
Oathkeeper, Duskendale, Maidenpool, Nimble Dick and Crackclaw and the Whispers, the men she'd killed . . ./

Brienne got a glimpse of the reality of her life.  What is martin going to do with her now?