Those Blasted Starks

[Curled Finger]

Hello fellow book club members!  Been on hiatus researching for a bit and as it usually ends up, it's time to turn to you, the fine and creative minds who genuinely love A Song of Ice and Fire.  Among the ASOIAF things I've been researching is the Last Hero.   I have figured this guy out oh probably 15 times now.   Sadly, all of my conclusions are in direct opposition to each other.  The latest thing I've actually discovered is that the Last Hero is not really the last hero up north.   Along with the ever wonky timeline that clearly indicates that the Age of Heroes did not end with the Last Hero.   WTH?  I figure if I've been as immersed in this tale for as long as many of you I should know something by now.   You know NOTHING, Curled Finger.   So help!   I'm trying to determine maybe who the Last Hero was?  Is this guy 1 or multiple people?  I can only cite 1 text where Sam reads some passage to Jon about TLH wielding dragonsteel sword against the Others.   All the rest seems to center around the quest for the COTF.   Imagine my surprise at that.   Seems to me this guy with the dragonsteel was more along the lines of the indubitable Azor Ahai.  Could Azor Ahai be the Last Hero and that's why we don't get his name?  How about Hyrkoon or Eldric?  Great, but with all the bad ass heroes we can choose from to be the dude with the dragonsteel, not 1 of them has a story about finding the COTF.    Something ain't right here. 

I think there are some folks who figure everything comes down to the Starks.   Don't get me wrong, I like our Starks.   Ok I like most of our Starks.  Nonetheless, I've never recovered from my initial suspicion that this family is wrong and likely complicit in if not responsible for whatever diabolical dastardliness summons the Others.  They couldn't even give their Last Hero a name!   When was Winterfell erected?   Was the Wall just a line of demarcation originally?  Is the whole thing protected with wards and spells?   But mostly I wonder about the Starks.   When did they become the Starks instead of Brandon the (insert favorite verb)?  History is still using Brandon the Breaker during the Nights King debacle...well after the Wall was built and Nights Watch established.  I give it a good 200 years later.  

As usual, I could go on for days and rant and talk myself into circles over this.   Instead I hope you will give me the benefit of your insights and skillful reading.   Can't wait to read your thoughts on some or all of this.   Thanks!

[Faera]

Well, one of the running jokes is the sheer number of Brandons there are in the history of the Stark family. I believe I stated in our "behind-the-scenes" discussions that there might have been multiple "Bran the Builders". So, perhaps we had one Bran the Builder who built Storm's End, another who started the construction of Winterfell, and another who built the Wall.

Bran the Builder was supposed descended from Garth Greenhand via Bran of the Bloody Blade. This indicates that House Stark's origins might have been in the Reach and that succeeding Brandons migrated North. As to how and why? Who can say?

I'll come back with more...

[kissdbyfire]

Yay!!!! @Curled Finger is back w/ another super interesting thread!

At work but I'll be back soon!

Hey @Curled Finger, back from work but kinda dead on my feet. Interesting threads require being able to think and re-think and rsearch and all those things that both make a thread a joy and require a fumctioning brain, something I lack right now. 

I will come back, just need some time.

ETA: See? Can't even type and too lazy to fix it! 

[Bael's Bastard]

One of the stories noted in TWOIAF has always sort of reminded me of the story of the last hero in AGOT:

"Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here." (TWOIAF: Dawn Age)

""Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"" (AGOT: Bran IV)

"All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"" (AGOT: Bran IV)

[Curled Finger]

@Faera and @kissdbyfire, excellent to be in such good company right off the bat.   I'm really eager for your thoughts on this because as Faera knows, I am nearly beside myself trying to figure things out.   The more I read and discuss the more of a headache it all becomes and now I'm watching all the history shows on the War of the Roses.    It sucks knowing more real world stuff about the real warring families, the Yorks and Lannisters.   It's a fascinating story and seen through so many different lenses really opens me up to some of the people some of the best characters in ASOIAF are based upon.   Yah I can see it now, no more mysteries, no more fantasy, I'm going rogue on historical fiction.   Nonetheless, the heroes of this fantastic tale are at issue here and begging to be sorted out.  

Faera, your point about the many Brandons is so appropriate in this conversation.   Why so many Brandons?  It goes well beyond folklore (Bran the Blessed)--we are told there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, but it feels like there should always be a Brandon there, too.   I can't tell from the stories when the Brandons receive their monikers--after their great deeds, in utero, as they exhibit talent?   This is a quandary not unlike the big one I find myself in over the Last Hero not being the last hero or being the last hero and oh 8 other last heroes.  My copy of AWOIAF Stark Lineage begins with a Benjen Stark and Lysa Locke best as I can tell.  And you know I love the math.   Ben & Lys had 2 sons, Bennard & Rickon.  On Bennard's line there are 4 Brandons appearing every 3rd generation up to Lyarra who was Ned's mom, Rickard's wife.  A distant but traceable cousin.   At that point the Brandons become very popular with Rickard naming his own child Brandon as well as Ned's son, Brandon.   I'm not kidding I read this.   There is even a Branda back on 1 of the branches.   I only see 1 Brandon on Rickard's patrimonial way back.  There is Cregan up the tree a bit, but most of the famous Brandons had to come from Bennard's line.    And while I'm ranting about names why is the 1st Stark listed Benjen and not further back?  This is only 14 generations but it does precede Aegon's Conquest.  This Benjen Stark didn't establish the name or house.   Is he a descendant of the Hungry Wolf or Breaker or Burner?  I eagerly await your thoughts!

Now the both of you go get some rest! 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

One of the stories noted in TWOIAF has always sort of reminded me of the story of the last hero in AGOT:

"Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here." (TWOIAF: Dawn Age)

""Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"" (AGOT: Bran IV)

"All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"" (AGOT: Bran IV)

Bael, that was very kind and thoughtful of you to post these quotes here.  And you chose so well for this topic.  I have a few more to add, but I'm sort of waiting to see where the conversation goes.  Thank you Kind Sir or Madame! 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 7/26/2018 at 10:15 PM, Curled Finger said:

Hello fellow book club members!  Been on hiatus researching for a bit and as it usually ends up, it's time to turn to you, the fine and creative minds who genuinely love A Song of Ice and Fire.  Among the ASOIAF things I've been researching is the Last Hero.   I have figured this guy out oh probably 15 times now.   Sadly, all of my conclusions are in direct opposition to each other.  The latest thing I've actually discovered is that the Last Hero is not really the last hero up north.   Along with the ever wonky timeline that clearly indicates that the Age of Heroes did not end with the Last Hero.   WTH?  I figure if I've been as immersed in this tale for as long as many of you I should know something by now.   You know NOTHING, Curled Finger.   So help!   I'm trying to determine maybe who the Last Hero was?  Is this guy 1 or multiple people?  I can only cite 1 text where Sam reads some passage to Jon about TLH wielding dragonsteel sword against the Others.   All the rest seems to center around the quest for the COTF.   Imagine my surprise at that.   Seems to me this guy with the dragonsteel was more along the lines of the indubitable Azor Ahai.  Could Azor Ahai be the Last Hero and that's why we don't get his name?  How about Hyrkoon or Eldric?  Great, but with all the bad ass heroes we can choose from to be the dude with the dragonsteel, not 1 of them has a story about finding the COTF.    Something ain't right here. 

I think there are some folks who figure everything comes down to the Starks.   Don't get me wrong, I like our Starks.   Ok I like most of our Starks.  Nonetheless, I've never recovered from my initial suspicion that this family is wrong and likely complicit in if not responsible for whatever diabolical dastardliness summons the Others.  They couldn't even give their Last Hero a name!   When was Winterfell erected?   Was the Wall just a line of demarcation originally?  Is the whole thing protected with wards and spells?   But mostly I wonder about the Starks.   When did they become the Starks instead of Brandon the (insert favorite verb)?  History is still using Brandon the Breaker during the Nights King debacle...well after the Wall was built and Nights Watch established.  I give it a good 200 years later.  

As usual, I could go on for days and rant and talk myself into circles over this.   Instead I hope you will give me the benefit of your insights and skillful reading.   Can't wait to read your thoughts on some or all of this.   Thanks!

The Last Hero was a man of the north.  Just read the symbolism surrounding the person.  Dog is a direwolf.  Looking for the Children of the Forest is someone who believed they knew how to help.  Nobody can stop the climate change and this person failed.  He died in his quest.

Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, the Shadowchaser, Woman with a tail, etc. all came from Essos.  Long winter happened on both continents.  The story is told repeatedly over the thousands of years that followed like the Great Flood that took place on Earth was recorded by many people from across the world.  And what is a story without colorful characters, right?  So the story as told by the people of the west had to include The Last Hero.  TLH was the celebrity in their story because he was the person who went on a quest to find the children.  AA, Hyrkoon, Elric, the Woman with a Monkey's Tail are all the main characters in the stories told by their people.  So yeah, they are different people from different cultures and from different stories who are the heroes in these stories.   Yet they are also the "same" hero in one sense because they were said to fulfill the same role, lead the humans during their time of crisis and credited (falsely in my opinion) with turning the climate back to normal.  Note that I think the climate turned back on its own, but superstitious people did not understand long-term climate changes because short human lifespan and poorly recorded weather data cannot comprehend climate shifts that occur at a frequency of thousands of years.  

The Last Hero is today's Bran Stark.  He sought out the children and found them.  I do not believe for one NY minute that they can turn the weather.  But he will be remembered in history as the man who tried and perhaps eventually credited for turning the weather.  The meaning being, if he lives long enough he can influence how history is written in terms favorable to himself and the Starks.  He is the greenseer and can steer the way events are put down in history.  In my opinion, The Last Hero either turned to the dark side or simply accepted it as something that cannot be stopped.  TLH stopped fearing the dark and instead embraced it.  He's the Dark Stark and maybe not the only one.  Perhaps he found a way to negotiate a deal with the white walkers to spare his family in exchange for the promise of continued human sacrifice.  We know peace with the white walkers can be bought with human sacrifice.  Craster did it for fifty years.  The Starks nurtured the Winterfell heart tree from human sacrifice and the castle itself was probably built on a foundation of human sacrifice.  The Starks, Post-Winter, became known as the Kings of Winter.  They killed the warg king and took his daughters and presumably fathered children with them.  They defeated the Boltons and became the undisputed rulers of the north.  The Starks are the Anti-Fire and the Anti-Light.  In my opinion, their creepy crypts and the preservation of their "kings" could be a clue that the ancients believed they will come back to life.  But this is not the first time somebody forgot to read the fine print in the contract.  They come back in the form of ice wights.  

Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai.  The return of the fire-wielding hero.  The kings in faded clothing holding their flaming swords from her vision are all previous versions of Azor Ahai.  They were not the old Targaryen kings of Westeros.  Those kings are from farther back in time and predate the Targaryen conquest.  Their clothing were faded and they looked ungroomed because they were living through mean times, the long night.  They were cheering her on and encouraging her to "wake the dragon" because she has something they never had.  Daenerys has dragons.  Dragons are much better weapons against armies of ice.  They had to make do with fire swords.  Daenerys has dragons, which can melt away entire armies of ice in minutes.   Azor Ahai is the Anti-Winter, the Anti-Ice, and the Anti-Darkness.   AA fought the wights and the white walkers, won, but could not turn back the weather.  I can see why AA is a hero for stopping the armies of ice but AA did not force the climate to turn back to normal.  

Hyrkoon, Elric, and the woman with a monkey's tail must have had interesting stories about each of them told from the point of view of their cultures.  These colorful characters are/were the heroes of their people and credited with saving them from the long darkness.  It does not mean it was true.  Like I said, the weather turned on its own.  But rulers and presidents gets the credit for anything good, like say a good economy.  It's the political propaganda at work and the art of public relations is nothing new.  The best they could have done is fight the armies of darkness but turning the weather is beyond human power.  

[Faera]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Faera and @kissdbyfire, excellent to be in such good company right off the bat.   I'm really eager for your thoughts on this because as Faera knows, I am nearly beside myself trying to figure things out.   The more I read and discuss the more of a headache it all becomes and now I'm watching all the history shows on the War of the Roses.    It sucks knowing more real world stuff about the real warring families, the Yorks and Lannisters.   It's a fascinating story and seen through so many different lenses really opens me up to some of the people some of the best characters in ASOIAF are based upon.   Yah I can see it now, no more mysteries, no more fantasy, I'm going rogue on historical fiction.   Nonetheless, the heroes of this fantastic tale are at issue here and begging to be sorted out.  

Faera, your point about the many Brandons is so appropriate in this conversation.   Why so many Brandons?  It goes well beyond folklore (Bran the Blessed)--we are told there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, but it feels like there should always be a Brandon there, too.   I can't tell from the stories when the Brandons receive their monikers--after their great deeds, in utero, as they exhibit talent?   This is a quandary not unlike the big one I find myself in over the Last Hero not being the last hero or being the last hero and oh 8 other last heroes.  My copy of AWOIAF Stark Lineage begins with a Benjen Stark and Lysa Locke best as I can tell.  And you know I love the math.   Ben & Lys had 2 sons, Bennard & Rickon.  On Bennard's line there are 4 Brandons appearing every 3rd generation up to Lyarra who was Ned's mom, Rickard's wife.  A distant but traceable cousin.   At that point the Brandons become very popular with Rickard naming his own child Brandon as well as Ned's son, Brandon.   I'm not kidding I read this.   There is even a Branda back on 1 of the branches.   I only see 1 Brandon on Rickard's patrimonial way back.  There is Cregan up the tree a bit, but most of the famous Brandons had to come from Bennard's line.    And while I'm ranting about names why is the 1st Stark listed Benjen and not further back?  This is only 14 generations but it does precede Aegon's Conquest.  This Benjen Stark didn't establish the name or house.   Is he a descendant of the Hungry Wolf or Breaker or Burner?  I eagerly await your thoughts!

Now the both of you go get some rest! 

Well, we don't know for certain how far the Stark family tree goes back or how many succession crises they would have had. It seems to me that the family tree in the World book only covers the last few hundred years of a family who obviously can trace their line back thousands. Prior to Torrhen Stark - and his bastard brother Brandon Snow - kneeling the Starks has consolidated all power of the North onto them by conquering the other kings to become the only King in the North. This conquest of the North may have begun either side of the first arrival of the Andals, starting with the lesser kings such as the Warg King, and ending with the major stakeholders in the Northern region: the Barrow Kings and the Red Kings, with the Marsh King's crannogmen being seemingly the last to bend the knee given that Rickard Stark "The Laughing Wolf" was already calling himself 'King in the North'. Perhaps if Howland Reed turns up might offhandedly tell us just how long able the Reeds officially swore their spears to Winterfell. The fact that even the other Northerners seem uncertain of the crannogmen (like Glover? questioning whether Howland Reed could be relied on to help Robb with his plan and the initial thoughts that go through Bran's head about they supposedly being cowardly) it might be more recent than we realise, occuring hundreds - maybe thousands - of years after the Andals arrived in Westeros. The World book describes that "In the centuries since, the crannogmen have become stout allies of the Starks, under the leadership of the Reeds of Greywater Watch." That indicates that the conquest of the crannogmen really is relatively recent in Northern history, considering how long the history goes back. Maybe 'only' two thousand or so years. The only reason I even stretch as far as "thousands" is because that is the nebulous amount of time Meera states it has been since her folk said their pledge to the King in the North. She might been being hyperbolic, though. It'd be funny if it literally was only a thousand or even a few hundred years before the Targaryens first swaggered in.

So, going backwards - the Starks finally conquered the Marsh King who at that time held Moat Cailin (and was probably why the decided to defeat the Marsh King to begin with, to control that vital border), prior to that the Starks had conquered the rest of the North to earn the title of King in the North. Prior to that they were the Kings of Winter, meaning they probably had to take over several petty lords or pieces of land to establish their "kingdom" in the centre of the North. Before that, they might well have started with a "Stark" who descended from the family who helped build the Wall and used that name to launch his campaign to become a king. Then we get back to whatever Bran the Builder designed the Wall himself. He might have been one of a generation of builders, and any one of them might have traced themselves back to "Brandon of the Bloody Blade" who himself was a Gardener.

That's of we take the story at face value.  The crypts are filled to the brim seemingly with centuries upon centuries of death Starks all with their own little nicknames. Perhaps one of them had the nickname, IDK, Brandon the Stark or something because he was strong and thus those who claimed descent from Bran the Builder officially started calling themselves "Stark". What I would be curious to know is whether, if you dug down into the collapsed tunnels, you would be able to find Bran the Builder or Bran of the Bloody Blade or any one of their numerous descendants who may have started the same nicknames. Heck, is the Night's King down there with his name chiseled off his tomb?

Basically, short of George coming in to officially state when the current line from which our Bran, Jon and the others all can claim an unbroken descent from or at least explaining where each Stark fits within the history... we really cannot pin down when the family went from "Brandon, son of Brandon" to "The Starks".

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The Last Hero was a man of the north.  Just read the symbolism surrounding the person.  Dog is a direwolf.  Looking for the Children of the Forest is someone who believed they knew how to help.  Nobody can stop the climate change and this person failed.  He died in his quest.

Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, the Shadowchaser, Woman with a tail, etc. all came from Essos.  Long winter happened on both continents.  The story is told repeatedly over the thousands of years that followed like the Great Flood that took place on Earth was recorded by many people from across the world.  And what is a story without colorful characters, right?  So the story as told by the people of the west had to include The Last Hero.  TLH was the celebrity in their story because he was the person who went on a quest to find the children.  AA, Hyrkoon, Elric, the Woman with a Monkey's Tail are all the main characters in the stories told by their people.  So yeah, they are different people from different cultures and from different stories who are the heroes in these stories.   Yet they are also the "same" hero in one sense because they were said to fulfill the same role, lead the humans during their time of crisis and credited (falsely in my opinion) with turning the climate back to normal.  Note that I think the climate turned back on its own, but superstitious people did not understand long-term climate changes because short human lifespan and poorly recorded weather data cannot comprehend climate shifts that occur at a frequency of thousands of years.  

The Last Hero is today's Bran Stark.  He sought out the children and found them.  I do not believe for one NY minute that they can turn the weather.  But he will be remembered in history as the man who tried and perhaps eventually credited for turning the weather.  The meaning being, if he lives long enough he can influence how history is written in terms favorable to himself and the Starks.  He is the greenseer and can steer the way events are put down in history.  In my opinion, The Last Hero either turned to the dark side or simply accepted it as something that cannot be stopped.  TLH stopped fearing the dark and instead embraced it.  He's the Dark Stark and maybe not the only one.  Perhaps he found a way to negotiate a deal with the white walkers to spare his family in exchange for the promise of continued human sacrifice.  We know peace with the white walkers can be bought with human sacrifice.  Craster did it for fifty years.  The Starks nurtured the Winterfell heart tree from human sacrifice and the castle itself was probably built on a foundation of human sacrifice.  The Starks, Post-Winter, became known as the Kings of Winter.  They killed the warg king and took his daughters and presumably fathered children with them.  They defeated the Boltons and became the undisputed rulers of the north.  The Starks are the Anti-Fire and the Anti-Light.  In my opinion, their creepy crypts and the preservation of their "kings" could be a clue that the ancients believed they will come back to life.  But this is not the first time somebody forgot to read the fine print in the contract.  They come back in the form of ice wights.  

Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai.  The return of the fire-wielding hero.  The kings in faded clothing holding their flaming swords from her vision are all previous versions of Azor Ahai.  They were not the old Targaryen kings of Westeros.  Those kings are from farther back in time and predate the Targaryen conquest.  Their clothing were faded and they looked ungroomed because they were living through mean times, the long night.  They were cheering her on and encouraging her to "wake the dragon" because she has something they never had.  Daenerys has dragons.  Dragons are much better weapons against armies of ice.  They had to make do with fire swords.  Daenerys has dragons, which can melt away entire armies of ice in minutes.   Azor Ahai is the Anti-Winter, the Anti-Ice, and the Anti-Darkness.   AA fought the wights and the white walkers, won, but could not turn back the weather.  I can see why AA is a hero for stopping the armies of ice but AA did not force the climate to turn back to normal.  

Hyrkoon, Elric, and the woman with a monkey's tail must have had interesting stories about each of them told from the point of view of their cultures.  These colorful characters are/were the heroes of their people and credited with saving them from the long darkness.  It does not mean it was true.  Like I said, the weather turned on its own.  But rulers and presidents gets the credit for anything good, like say a good economy.  It's the political propaganda at work and the art of public relations is nothing new.  The best they could have done is fight the armies of darkness but turning the weather is beyond human power.  

I really appreciate your thoughts here.  Not that I can agree in my state of understanding, but I sure do like it.   You're brave in taking a stance. You've reached your conclusions and good on you.  You have interpreted events in a way I cannot.  I will try not to veer off into my usual fantasy & magic holes.   I'm not a symbolism guy, but it seems to me that wolves have run the North since time began--long before the 1st Men moved in.  And I suppose somewhere there is a big deal related to the Stark Direwolf sigil.  Why change a wolf to a dog?  In my very lame understanding of symbolism, I would have jumped to Clegane for TLH with the dog in the story.  I also find it very curious that Brienne meets Septon Meribald and Dog in AFFC.   Imagine that--a dog called Dog.  I could go for the dog/wolf transference if not for Dog.  (And they may have nothing to do with each other at all, friend.)  What would the horse be?  If a horse, why change a wolf to a dog?  The dog is very much out of place in this tale.  

Really nice break down of the last heroes.  I began this research project believing the Long Night was a world wide event.  Was it?  It's sure known everywhere, but only TLH and AA have any sort of backstory.  I can't begin to imagine what a monkey tail could do for a night that lasts a generation.   I do have a quote I'd like to bring in from one of my wonderful research colleagues:  "the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day."  This is of course the Rhoyne weighing in with their own last hero.  I have to agree with @Cridefea that this illustrates cooperation and team work.    Isn't this essentially what TLH does in searching out the other people for help?    It's interesting that the North and Rhoyne seem to have the most similar of the many snippets of tales available.   This little bit actually offers up more than the paragraphs we have for TLH--the lesser gods and Old Man River joined up and sang a secret song and brought back the day.   We don't even get to know what happened to poor TLH who may well have ended up exactly as you say.   

Or he could have taken on that Azor Ahai persona and led the Nights Watch against the Others...I get it that you don't think the guy who fought the others is the same person who found the COTF and applaud you ability to separate the heroes.  I'm bogged down with the many folks who do meld both personas into TLH.  Dragon steel sword indeed.   I've read the stories and gotta ask how you were able to separate them when the wiki even combines them.  I just thought they were 2 different people until I found the quote from Sam who either calls or reads the Last Hero with the dragon steel sword against the Others.   Could the COTF have changed TLH?  

I could go on all day with your post as you've made some really nice offerings here.   I hope you will have some time to answer a few of my questions.  Thanks a million.  

 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Faera said:

Well, we don't know for certain how far the Stark family tree goes back or how many succession crises they would have had. It seems to me that the family tree in the World book only covers the last few hundred years of a family who obviously can trace their line back thousands. Prior to Torrhen Stark - and his bastard brother Brandon Snow - kneeling the Starks has consolidated all power of the North onto them by conquering the other kings to become the only King in the North. This conquest of the North may have begun either side of the first arrival of the Andals, starting with the lesser kings such as the Warg King, and ending with the major stakeholders in the Northern region: the Barrow Kings and the Red Kings, with the Marsh King's crannogmen being seemingly the last to bend the knee given that Rickard Stark "The Laughing Wolf" was already calling himself 'King in the North'. Perhaps if Howland Reed turns up might offhandedly tell us just how long able the Reeds officially swore their spears to Winterfell. The fact that even the other Northerners seem uncertain of the crannogmen (like Glover? questioning whether Howland Reed could be relied on to help Robb with his plan and the initial thoughts that go through Bran's head about they supposedly being cowardly) it might be more recent than we realise, occuring hundreds - maybe thousands - of years after the Andals arrived in Westeros. The World book describes that "In the centuries since, the crannogmen have become stout allies of the Starks, under the leadership of the Reeds of Greywater Watch." That indicates that the conquest of the crannogmen really is relatively recent in Northern history, considering how long the history goes back. Maybe 'only' two thousand or so years. The only reason I even stretch as far as "thousands" is because that is the nebulous amount of time Meera states it has been since her folk said their pledge to the King in the North. She might been being hyperbolic, though. It'd be funny if it literally was only a thousand or even a few hundred years before the Targaryens first swaggered in.

So, going backwards - the Starks finally conquered the Marsh King who at that time held Moat Cailin (and was probably why the decided to defeat the Marsh King to begin with, to control that vital border), prior to that the Starks had conquered the rest of the North to earn the title of King in the North. Prior to that they were the Kings of Winter, meaning they probably had to take over several petty lords or pieces of land to establish their "kingdom" in the centre of the North. Before that, they might well have started with a "Stark" who descended from the family who helped build the Wall and used that name to launch his campaign to become a king. Then we get back to whatever Bran the Builder designed the Wall himself. He might have been one of a generation of builders, and any one of them might have traced themselves back to "Brandon of the Bloody Blade" who himself was a Gardener.

That's of we take the story at face value.  The crypts are filled to the brim seemingly with centuries upon centuries of death Starks all with their own little nicknames. Perhaps one of them had the nickname, IDK, Brandon the Stark or something because he was strong and thus those who claimed descent from Bran the Builder officially started calling themselves "Stark". What I would be curious to know is whether, if you dug down into the collapsed tunnels, you would be able to find Bran the Builder or Bran of the Bloody Blade or any one of their numerous descendants who may have started the same nicknames. Heck, is the Night's King down there with his name chiseled off his tomb?

Basically, short of George coming in to officially state when the current line from which our Bran, Jon and the others all can claim an unbroken descent from or at least explaining where each Stark fits within the history... we really cannot pin down when the family went from "Brandon, son of Brandon" to "The Starks".

 I know you know your stuff Faera and appreciate your comments.    Stark lineage:  I've been operating under the impression that the Starks and Lannisters date back to the Age of Heroes, at least Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder.  That's 8000 years back?  I think my continuity questions center more on what happened to all the Brandons and men of daring?  Cregan and Torhen are in the tree we have on the side without the Brandons.  I'm thinking the name Brandon is important but I can't put my finger on it and it sure doesn't look like much with the last Kings in the North on the other side.   I'm trusting Meera here with the thousands of years.

I loved your concluding paragraph.   It absolutely is the cherry on the cake of your work here.  It is only dawning on me that Brandon, son of Brandon may really have been a thing.   The Stark name had to be established somewhere and we may never know where or when.  I'm sticking just a little bit to some of my earlier inclinations, that the Stark name was likely established when the castle at Winterfell was erected.  I guess all the other cool titles would fall afterward, but that is the progression that makes sense to me.   

You've nicely sized up your thinking about these legendary characters being many people over time.  It's confusing when the World Book even supports the idea, much less trying to find TLH in AA or vice versa.   Why have the allegory of Bran the Builder then offer up a story about Bran the Shipwright and his son, Bran the Burner if each person is not actually 1 person?  That bugs me.   

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 I know you know your stuff Faera and appreciate your comments.    Stark lineage:  I've been operating under the impression that the Starks and Lannisters date back to the Age of Heroes, at least Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder.  That's 8000 years back?  I think my continuity questions center more on what happened to all the Brandons and men of daring?  Cregan and Torhen are in the tree we have on the side without the Brandons.  I'm thinking the name Brandon is important but I can't put my finger on it and it sure doesn't look like much with the last Kings in the North on the other side.   I'm trusting Meera here with the thousands of years.

I loved your concluding paragraph.   It absolutely is the cherry on the cake of your work here.  It is only dawning on me that Brandon, son of Brandon may really have been a thing.   The Stark name had to be established somewhere and we may never know where or when.  I'm sticking just a little bit to some of my earlier inclinations, that the Stark name was likely established when the castle at Winterfell was erected.  I guess all the other cool titles would fall afterward, but that is the progression that makes sense to me.   

You've nicely sized up your thinking about these legendary characters being many people over time.  It's confusing when the World Book even supports the idea, much less trying to find TLH in AA or vice versa.   Why have the allegory of Bran the Builder then offer up a story about Bran the Shipwright and his son, Bran the Burner if each person is not actually 1 person?  That bugs me.   

Lann the Clevar was an Andal who took Casterly Rock from the Casterlys.

[kissdbyfire]

Oryi949291nsnrbt

^^ that means I don't know where to start. There are so many interesting bits I wanna reply to, but I completely lack the ability to concentrate at the moment.

@Faera, so much in your post, so many juicy bits... 

For now let me focus on the Reeds and their beautiful pledge. 

ACoK, Bran 

“She is looking at me, Bran realized. He had to make some answer. “My brother Robb is fighting in the south,” he said, “but you can say your words to me, if you like.”
“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,” they said together. “Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.”
“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.
“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.
“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.
Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.”

 

Their pledge is one of (many) reasons the crannogs strike me as the closest to the CotF of all humans. Because ithe pledge is all about balance, and anything w/o balance is doomed to fail. IMO. 

One thing. I'm not sure on the maths... placing the crannogmen swearing fealty to the Starks [possibly] just a couple of thousand yrs ago... I know what's in the WB, but that's why I have to agree w/ @Widow's Watch on having a love/hate relationship w/ the WB. Damn you, @Ran.

I have always had a [gut] feeling that the Reeds and the Starks go way, way back. Bit that's not based on any textual evidence. 

And there was an actual point I wanted to make about the Reeds, and just like that it's gone. And I've only had two drinks (so far).

I'll come back and edit if I ever remember what it was.

@Curled Finger I agree, I think the LN was a world-wide event. At least that's what one can infer given the limited, and confusing and dubious - damn you, @Ran - info we have so far. 

On the actual myths/legends, I don't think TLH and AA were the same person... I don't know, ithe two legends just seem to be too different... 

I have a bunch more I want to touch on but dinner is ready and I'm starving!

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Lann the Clevar was an Andal who took Casterly Rock from the Casterlys.

Hi arya--always good to see you.   Lann was supposed to have tricked Garth Greenhand into believing he was his son.  Well, I guess it could go both ways since the timeline is a mess.  I hear Garth and go 1st Men automatically.  

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oryi949291nsnrbt

^^ that means I don't know where to start. There are so many interesting bits I wanna reply to, but I completely lack the ability to concentrate at the moment.

@Faera, so much in your post, so many juicy bits... 

For now let me focus on the Reeds and their beautiful pledge. 

ACoK, Bran 

“She is looking at me, Bran realized. He had to make some answer. “My brother Robb is fighting in the south,” he said, “but you can say your words to me, if you like.”
“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,” they said together. “Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.”
“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.
“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.
“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.
Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.”

 

Their pledge is one of (many) reasons the crannogs strike me as the closest to the CotF of all humans. Because ithe pledge is all about balance, and anything w/o balance is doomed to fail. IMO. 

One thing. I'm not sure on the maths... placing the crannogmen swearing fealty to the Starks [possibly] just a couple of thousand yrs ago... I know what's in the WB, but that's why I have to agree w/ @Widow's Watch on having a love/hate relationship w/ the WB. Damn you, @Ran.

I have always had a [gut] feeling that the Reeds and the Starks go way, way back. Bit that's not based on any textual evidence. 

And there was an actual point I wanted to make about the Reeds, and just like that it's gone. And I've only had two drinks (so far).

I'll come back and edit if I ever remember what it was.

@Curled Finger I agree, I think the LN was a world-wide event. At least that's what one can infer given the limited, and confusing and dubious - damn you, @Ran - info we have so far. 

On the actual myths/legends, I don't think TLH and AA were the same person... I don't know, ithe two legends just seem to be too different... 

I have a bunch more I want to touch on but dinner is ready and I'm starving!

 

 

 

Ah nice!  I figure the Reeds are either creeps who captured and raped COTF or they were so special the singers loved them and chose to mingle bloodlines with them.  Either way it makes the Reeds very special in all this.  So how come no one thinks TLH was a Reed?  Seems to me (based strictly on Meera & Jojen's unwavering loyalty to Bran) a person who actually is part COTF would be the best candidate for the quest to find them.  

Come back after you feed the machine and get the rest of that bottle down!   You know we love your take on things...

[Faera]

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I know you know your stuff Faera and appreciate your comments.    Stark lineage:  I've been operating under the impression that the Starks and Lannisters date back to the Age of Heroes, at least Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder.  That's 8000 years back?  I think my continuity questions center more on what happened to all the Brandons and men of daring?  Cregan and Torhen are in the tree we have on the side without the Brandons.  I'm thinking the name Brandon is important but I can't put my finger on it and it sure doesn't look like much with the last Kings in the North on the other side.   I'm trusting Meera here with the thousands of years.

Even if the Starks go through a dearth of Brandons over a few generations before another batch crop up it still seems to be a widely popular (perhaps perceived as lucky) name. Like Charles/Philip/Louis in the French monarchy or Henry/Edward/George in England are much more common compared to other names such as Jean (France), John (England), Francis (France) or Richard (England). Sometimes these naming patterns just happen, sometimes they are thought of as unlucky or unpopular names. In the case of the name Brandon for the Starks it was clearly considered a proud name to bear partly because of the founder, because of its roots as a traditional Northern name, and partly because each Brandon was named after another of a previous generation. The same might be for the other popular and recurring names such as Cregan, Torrehen and Benjen. They are names that just caught on with the Starks.

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I'm trusting Meera here with the thousands of years.

True, I see no reason why not though, as I said, people in this world seem to be pretty hyperbolic when it comes to their view of time. A recurring statement that keeps popping up in these books is characters remembering an event in their life time and thinking "It seemed a thousand years ago now." I'm variations of that very sentence crop up two or three times in the series, as well as other variations that exaggerate time. 

The point is that the measure of time might be completely wrong. People think that something happened thousands upon thousands of years ago when in reality it might have only been at most a few thousand at most.

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I loved your concluding paragraph.   It absolutely is the cherry on the cake of your work here.  It is only dawning on me that Brandon, son of Brandon may really have been a thing.   The Stark name had to be established somewhere and we may never know where or when.  I'm sticking just a little bit to some of my earlier inclinations, that the Stark name was likely established when the castle at Winterfell was erected.  I guess all the other cool titles would fall afterward, but that is the progression that makes sense to me.   

Well, I think about it terms of how the British, English and Irish people used to name themselves prior to the introduction of surname names. All those O' and 'Mc/Mac', '-son' or names ending with an 's' or 'ies' -- all are the equivalent of being called "daughter of" or "son of" or at most "of this clan/tribe". You'd have "Brandon son of Eddard" because among the nobility you're presumably supposed to know who Eddard is and be like "Oh, that's his son!" Some of the poorer members of society would be known by their trade, hence where names like Baker, Murphy, Smith, Brewster and Webster, while others are named for the place they are from (in a similar manner to son of/daughter of essentially being an indicator of one's clan). The fact that the Starks aren't the, IDK, "Bransons" or something indicates that the name Stark might have come in much later and perhaps as a nickname for a later descendant of Bran the Builder was indeed known as "Benjen the Stark" or something and it just stuck. If was just linked to the castle, then it would make as much sense for them to take the name of the caste/place -- "Winterfell". So, perhaps the location of Winterfell was known as "Stark Hill" or something? 
 

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You've nicely sized up your thinking about these legendary characters being many people over time.  

 

I think we can only treat the World book as what it is -- a maester's interpretation of events. Though the maesters do tend to be a little more conservative over all when it comes to working out time and when things happened, it seems. Either way, we don't want to take it too seriously though it is nice to have and look to for an idea of what the people in-universe widely believe and are taught as historical fact.

Quote

It's confusing when the World Book even supports the idea, much less trying to find TLH in AA or vice versa. Why have the allegory of Bran the Builder then offer up a story about Bran the Shipwright and his son, Bran the Burner if each person is not actually 1 person? That bugs me.  

Well, we can be fairly sure that Bran the Shipwright and Bran the Burner were two seperate people because I *think* Bran (our Bran) points out the statues when out when they're in the crypts. Plus, given their position in the crypts, they seem to have lived at a later date than Bran the Builder.

"That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."
- AGoT, Bran VII.

While Bran is probably not doing these kings in perfect order he seems to be starting from the oldest kings and working his way forward. /warning, wild speculation based on this one quote from AGoT ahead!  /

So, we have Jon Stark who defending White Habour against raiders. Perhaps these were early Andals? I say that because his son is stated to be Rickard (The Laughing Wolf) who "took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter". The World book says he killed the Marsh King but what about the finer details? After all, the crannogmen appear to be infamously difficult to fight because of their magic, their guerilla tactics and their location. While Moat Cailin is probably a lot easier to take from the North than the South (which is essentially how the Greyjoys did it) we saw that it is almost impossible to hold indefinitely because the crannogmen will just trap you inside and wear you down through attrition (again, like the Greyjoys). So, this notion that the Starks would be able to hold dominion over the Neck for as long as they have if all they had done is kill the Marsh King (the crannogmen saw their kings as "first among equals" - so, you can imagine he inspired a great deal of loyalty) and marry the daughter seems like it wouldn't last long unless there was a big, massive deal/pact involved in there somewhere. The oath of House Reed to the Starks is one of the most interesting and compelling of them all, so what is going on? Well, I think a true alliance seems much, much more likely to mean something the crannogmen -- like the Pact. This all seems close to the age of Theon Stark "The Hungry Wolf" who fought the Andals so... what if King Rickard approached the aging Marsh King who is dying anyway and with a daughter as an heir (let's call them the proto-Reeds) and said to him that the North needs to crannogmen on side to keep them safe from inevitable coming of the Andals. In return, Rickard will make the Marsh Princess his queen, their first son a king and their second son or daughter the new ruling House of the Neck, maybe even the true birth of House Reed? I think the crannogmen could get behind that sort of "pact". Even if the Marsh King and Rickard had to have a one-on-one fight to settle it which ended in the MK's death, bringing in the crannogmen through an honest alliance rather than trying to conqueror or subjugate them makes more sense. It would also go a long way to explaining the crannogmen remaining loyal to House Stark -- given that they know "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember." -- they see them as kin, in the same way Rickard Karstark claims kinship with the Starks.) /wild speculation over.

Now, Bran might well be missing out a few unremarkable kings during the Andal days through to the lords of the Targ days but the point is that a maester could in theory go down there, count bodies and read the epitaphs to ascertain to some degree which Starks are down there...

My curiosity is whether, if you dug out the bit that has caved in, and go down deeper and deeper, if you wouldn't find several Bran the Builders or just one. I swear I read somewhere (probably the World book) that there is speculation that one of the buildings attributed to Bran the Builder "might have been his son" or something along those lines. Or maybe I'm just dreaming it. Either way, it sets the precedent that titles might have been reused in the family's history.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oryi949291nsnrbt

^^ that means I don't know where to start. There are so many interesting bits I wanna reply to, but I completely lack the ability to concentrate at the moment.

@Faera, so much in your post, so many juicy bits... 

For now let me focus on the Reeds and their beautiful pledge. 

ACoK, Bran 

“She is looking at me, Bran realized. He had to make some answer. “My brother Robb is fighting in the south,” he said, “but you can say your words to me, if you like.”
“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,” they said together. “Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.”
“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.
“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.
“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.
Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.”

Their pledge is one of (many) reasons the crannogs strike me as the closest to the CotF of all humans. Because ithe pledge is all about balance, and anything w/o balance is doomed to fail. IMO. 

Oh, I am always happy to dote time and effort to speculating about the crannogmen, the Neck and House Reed. Their oath is just one of many aspects about them that make them so fascinating and mysterious. To me their swearing by "ice and fire" almost feels like them saying, "We swear until the end of times" as well as about balance.

However, to add to my rant from above about how the crannogmen might have been brought into the Northern fold, their connection with the CotF really does interest me. I have always been sceptical about this notion that they interbred with the CotF any more than other parts of Westeros might have. Instead, whether there was intermarriage or not, they seem to be the humans who "got it" as in they understood the CotF and managed to make proper peace with them by adapting to a balanced way of life - combining the admirable aspect of humanity (their ingenuity with smithing and metalwork - bronze and iron) with the respect for nature the CotF had "earth and water" (also the main forces of the Neck itself). This might be a bit out there but... makes me wonder whether the CotF who the crannogmen bonded with or learned from weren't the greenseers (or "wise men") of the CotF who initially moved to put an end to the war between the humans and singers.

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One thing. I'm not sure on the maths... placing the crannogmen swearing fealty to the Starks [possibly] just a couple of thousand yrs ago... I know what's in the WB, but that's why I have to agree w/ @Widow's Watch on having a love/hate relationship w/ the WB. Damn you, @Ran. 

I have always had a [gut] feeling that the Reeds and the Starks go way, way back. Bit that's not based on any textual evidence. 

And there was an actual point I wanted to make about the Reeds, and just like that it's gone. And I've only had two drinks (so far). 

I'll come back and edit if I ever remember what it was.

 

Damn it, @kissdbyfire! You've got me on tenterhooks now! 

Anyhoo, I have no doubt that the Kings of Winter/Proto-Starks and the Marsh Kings/Proto-Reeds go way back before the Neck officially joined the Northern kingdom. We know that the crannogmen were primarily the ones who held Moat Cailin but they allied with the other Northern Kingdoms to keep out southron invaders. The Neck is large and vast and hard to conquer though so I think the crannogmen/Reeds/whatever swear fealty to House Stark *might* have been more recent than we realise though their bonds might have gone back even further.

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah nice!  I figure the Reeds are either creeps who captured and raped COTF or they were so special the singers loved them and chose to mingle bloodlines with them.  Either way it makes the Reeds very special in all this.  So how come no one thinks TLH was a Reed?  Seems to me (based strictly on Meera & Jojen's unwavering loyalty to Bran) a person who actually is part COTF would be the best candidate for the quest to find them.  

 Come back after you feed the machine and get the rest of that bottle down!   You know we love your take on things...

If we're going to bring the ravishing of the womens and the nabbing of the mens into this...

Much like it seems unlikely a human female could realistically conceive (let alone carry to full term!) a human-giant baby, I wouldn't fancy the much smaller female CotF chances in successfully carrying the human-CotF babies to term. So, I actually wonder if much like how Osha says that the giantesses are the ones who take male human lovers, perhaps human women were knocking around with those lithe male wooddancer CotF, or even the male CotF actively pursued the human women in the hopes of begetting new babies significantly faster than female CotF seemed to be able to have babies? You know, sleeping with the enemy and all that... but it then turned into an ongoing thing as the groups managed to live quite happily together.

Maybe TLH was a crannogman. There is no reason to think not other than begging the question why they were having trouble finding the CotF if they were living in a marshy commune together.

In another thread, we were talking about how it is that lizard lions - a giant cold-blooded water creature - is only found in a northern area like the Neck and not mentioned to be anywhere else. One thing that kept coming up was that the Neck might be a natural warm-spot like Winterfell is, or perhaps to a much greater extent. So, it might have been a safe haven from the Others... but that's just speculating.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 7:35 PM, Curled Finger said:

It sucks knowing more real world stuff about the real warring families, the Yorks and Lannisters. 

Unless there was some sort of inter-dimensional wormhole or something going on, I think that you meant Lancasters.

I think the speculation that TLH and/or all the Brandons being a compilation of people and stories has merit. In our own historical lore both King Arthur and Robin Hood have gone through several revisions, additions of characters and reevaluations of the meanings of their tropes as society has evolved and changed through the centuries. All oral traditions suffer/benefit from this and even writing it down has very little effect on the permanence of these tales. We are still rewriting them today.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Curled Finger

Azor Ahai and Huzhor Amai. Do you think they are cousins?

How about Huzhor and Hugor?

Azor kills a wife forging a sword, Huzhor's Cymmeri wife forged iron for him(Rhoynar?) Hugor learned the secrets of iron forging from the god Smith. 

On Iron forging, get this, Iron requires a higher temperature than bronze to melt, but retains heat longer; harder to cool. Relevant to Nissa Nissa sacrifice perhaps?

But I doubt it since Noye the armorer doesn't know that Iron is bendable(or maybe he does)

[aryagonnakill#2]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi arya--always good to see you.   Lann was supposed to have tricked Garth Greenhand into believing he was his son.  Well, I guess it could go both ways since the timeline is a mess.  I hear Garth and go 1st Men automatically.  

Where does that come from?

[Faera]

21 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Where does that come from?

Aha, where else? That darned World book. 

Lann the Clever was a bastard born to Florys the Fox in some tales or Rowan Gold-Tree in others. However, Lann the Clever's descent from Garth Greenhand is a tale told in the Reach. In the westerlands, it is more oft said that Lann cozened Garth Greenhand himself by posing as one of his sons (Garth had so many that ofttimes he grew confused), thus making off with part of the inheritance that rightly belonged to Garth's true children.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, Faera said:

However, to add to my rant from above about how the crannogmen might have been brought into the Northern fold, their connection with the CotF really does interest me. I have always been sceptical about this notion that they interbred with the CotF any more than other parts of Westeros might have.

@Curled Finger, and Faera, im still in limbo but now it's my weekend (mon/tue), so hopefully I'll get my head screwed in properly and hopefully will be able to reply coherently tomorrow.

Faera, irt this bit above... yeah, it's one of many things I go back and forth on all the time. While I think that perhaps it makes more sense to not have these two (Reeds and CotF) have interbred, I find the physical description of the Reeds to be... intriguing. We know that the crannogs were "vassals" to the MK, and eventually they swore fealty to the Starks. But even as "subjects" of the MK, they were FM, they were all FM back then. And what gets me every time is that, at some point, the phenotype for this group of FM changed quite a bit. Why? And the only answers that make sense are: interbreeding, magical mingling of bloodlines, and adapting to survive (which seems to be the least supported option, since we get zero on that sort of thing). 

I think the Pact holds many answers, and I for one can't wait to learn more about it.