Those Blasted Starks

[kissdbyfire]

On the Reeds, I agree w/ @Faera. I think Meera knows some things, Jojen knows some other things, and then there's an intersection of things they both know. The KotLT story they both know well, it seems to me. After all, Meera tells it, and we get a surprised reaction from Jojen when Bran says he doesn't know it. Doesn't he say something along the lines of, "Bran must have heard that story many times". 

Now back to AA and TLH... I don't know but I really don't see these two as being the same person. I do think it's entirely possible that someone, let's call this person TLH, sort of saved the day, or played a crucial part in the BftD. If we take the LN as being a world-wide event, folks in Essos (or wherever) came up w/ their own legend about the end of the LN. But that doesn't necessarily mean the Essosi had a character of their own involved in these events.

For instance, LN covers the world. Priests of Red Rahloo in Essos start banging on and on about a saviour figure who will save them/the world, and of course their saviour will be all about fire. LN ends, eventually news of a hero type reaches Essos and there you go: Rahloorists claim this hero was their fiery saviour. 

I had a draft of an essay ages ago where I went down a rabbit hole trying to connect AA w/ the coming of the LN, not its ending.

[Faera]

 

@Curled Finger - I kept thinking I'd already said all this but I think I just dreamed I'd written it all out... so, here it is. 

The similarities between these figures feels more akin to the similarities between various resurrection deities in our own world such as Osiris/Mitra/Mithras/Jesus/Baldr/even King Arthur. Less so, in fact, as there isn't truly all that much to compare AA to TLH other than they are men with swords. Culturally, they are very far removed from one another when it comes down to it.

To me, if the LN was a global event then it makes far more sense to me that there were multiple "saviours" or heroes rather than one single figure. To argue that TLH, AA, Eldric Shadowchaser etc... were all the same person seems a bit too much of a stretch considering these are kingdoms and cultures separated by miles of land and sea. Though I understand the appeal of arguing they are the same person, and concede that it's not impossible, it feels more "appealing" to me if people had their own heroes rather than just appropriating the Last Hero, if that makes sense. If the LN was everywhere then you can probably presume a lot of places were cut off, doing their own fighting and coming up with the solutions by themselves...

For all we know, Azor Ahai is just a bargain-bin Last Hero who never actually fought the White Walkers and instead it is just a later symbolic figure for how magical steel swords - Proto-VS - were forged with blood magic... (or possibly a metaphor for making a baby? In before Jon = Lightbringer )

The AA legend also sits badly with me because it presents the notion of a "Chosen One" who needs to save the world- rather than it being a team effort, if that makes sense? TLH isn't some glorious chosen saviour (you've said yourself in the past he was a bit of a screw-up, really) but instead one of a group of men trying to complete a task. It captures the sense of camaraderie, working together and the loss experienced in the face of insurmountable odds, in such cold and dangerous conditions. For this reason, I think there is more inherent value in the "end" to the Last Hero story because it is the tale of a group of people who risked so much to find the CotF in order to work together with them to push back the Others. In comparison, when I look at AA, I see an unpleasant man who used blood magic in order to create a sword.

Even if AA was a real man who made a real sword I see no reason why he need be the same name as the Last Hero; they could have come to similar conclusions independently from each other.

[Faera]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

On the Reeds, I agree w/ @Faera. I think Meera knows some things, Jojen knows some other things, and then there's an intersection of things they both know. The KotLT story they both know well, it seems to me. After all, Meera tells it, and we get a surprised reaction from Jojen when Bran says he doesn't know it. Doesn't he say something along the lines of, "Bran must have heard that story many times". 

ETA: Sorry, for some reason my full response to you disappeared when I was trying to do my thoughts to CF... So, here we go.

I agree with you on this.

So we agree to agree! 

Quote

Now back to AA and TLH... I don't know but I really don't see these two as being the same person. I do think it's entirely possible that someone, let's call this person TLH, sort of saved the day, or played a crucial part in the BftD. If we take the LN as being a world-wide event, folks in Essos (or wherever) came up w/ their own legend about the end of the LN. But that doesn't necessarily mean the Essosi had a character of their own involved in these events.

 For instance, LN covers the world. Priests of Red Rahloo in Essos start banging on and on about a saviour figure who will save them/the world, and of course their saviour will be all about fire. LN ends, eventually news of a hero type reaches Essos and there you go: Rahloorists claim this hero was their fiery saviour. 

I had a draft of an essay ages ago where I went down a rabbit hole trying to connect AA w/ the coming of the LN, not its ending.

...and I really like the idea that Azor Ahai might have never been an actual person but a concept that the Last Hero (or any heroic figure who physically fought the Others) might have later be retroactively pasted into once the entire event was over. Once the world was no longer in crisis and trade routes re-opened, it would make sense that if word got wind that a dude with a sword killed "monsters" that caused the cold and darkness, they could also fit it to suit what they wanted it to be. No one could say otherwise. 

After all, we have no strong evidence that the AA ever involved him fighting the Others, just fought the Darkness. Welp, the darkness could be anything.  The LH on the other hand definitely is said to have fought White Walkers.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 7/28/2018 at 3:25 PM, Curled Finger said:

I really appreciate your thoughts here.  Not that I can agree in my state of understanding, but I sure do like it.   You're brave in taking a stance. You've reached your conclusions and good on you.  You have interpreted events in a way I cannot.  I will try not to veer off into my usual fantasy & magic holes.   I'm not a symbolism guy, but it seems to me that wolves have run the North since time began--long before the 1st Men moved in.  And I suppose somewhere there is a big deal related to the Stark Direwolf sigil.  Why change a wolf to a dog?  In my very lame understanding of symbolism, I would have jumped to Clegane for TLH with the dog in the story.  I also find it very curious that Brienne meets Septon Meribald and Dog in AFFC.   Imagine that--a dog called Dog.  I could go for the dog/wolf transference if not for Dog.  (And they may have nothing to do with each other at all, friend.)  What would the horse be?  If a horse, why change a wolf to a dog?  The dog is very much out of place in this tale.  

Really nice break down of the last heroes.  I began this research project believing the Long Night was a world wide event.  Was it?  It's sure known everywhere, but only TLH and AA have any sort of backstory.  I can't begin to imagine what a monkey tail could do for a night that lasts a generation.   I do have a quote I'd like to bring in from one of my wonderful research colleagues:  "the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day."  This is of course the Rhoyne weighing in with their own last hero.  I have to agree with @Cridefea that this illustrates cooperation and team work.    Isn't this essentially what TLH does in searching out the other people for help?    It's interesting that the North and Rhoyne seem to have the most similar of the many snippets of tales available.   This little bit actually offers up more than the paragraphs we have for TLH--the lesser gods and Old Man River joined up and sang a secret song and brought back the day.   We don't even get to know what happened to poor TLH who may well have ended up exactly as you say.   

Or he could have taken on that Azor Ahai persona and led the Nights Watch against the Others...I get it that you don't think the guy who fought the others is the same person who found the COTF and applaud you ability to separate the heroes.  I'm bogged down with the many folks who do meld both personas into TLH.  Dragon steel sword indeed.   I've read the stories and gotta ask how you were able to separate them when the wiki even combines them.  I just thought they were 2 different people until I found the quote from Sam who either calls or reads the Last Hero with the dragon steel sword against the Others.   Could the COTF have changed TLH?  

I could go on all day with your post as you've made some really nice offerings here.   I hope you will have some time to answer a few of my questions.  Thanks a million.  

 

Ha ha, you know where this discussion is probably heading.    The members of this forum and the fans in general are divided you know.  No need to explain.   

Allow me to guess.  Where we differ is who we think is Azor Ahai?  Is that correct?   

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

This is the first @Curled Finger thread that I have actually been able to keep up with in a long time. This is exciting for me! These threads seem to hit 10 pages within a day and I can never seem to get caught up to everyone else. 

9 hours ago, Faera said:

Less so, in fact, as there isn't truly all that much to compare AA to TLH other than they are men with swords.

I'm going to harp on this subject a little more. I think it is possible that there are more similarities to the Last Hero and Azor Ahai than you realize, definitely more than just men with swords . Maybe. First, let's remember that we really don't know a lot about either figure. We have a very limited number of words throughout all five books plus the World Book on either person. So the possibilities of similarities is not large to begin with. However, in our few words that we are given there are several similarities, and most of these similarities seem important.  

First, and probably most important, is the idea that they both triumph over darkness to bring the light. This darkness would be the Others. Obviously there is no way to determine whether or not it could be two different heroes doing this in two different areas but this is a striking similarity in the telling of the two legendary figures. They are the hero that brought back the light. Of course, there is no way to determine whether or not they both "saved the day" (pun intended) from separate locations but such a monumental concept would seem odd for it to happen so far apart. Also, Waymar's encounter with the Others in the Prologue seems to indicate that the Others were looking for something special in either the sword or the person wielding it. This could be an indicator that only one person is mean to "save the day". Or not.

Second, both legends involve the breaking, or re-forging, of their swords. Azor Ahai famously breaks his sword three times before stabbing Nissa Nissa and the sword works. Meanwhile, the Last Hero legend tells us that his sword was so cold that it snaps when he used it. But later, we are told from Samwell's readings that the Last Hero used a dragonsteel sword to kill the Others. This presumably happens after he finds the Others. These two stories of gaining the magical sword are different in the details, but both involve the breaking of their original swords before wielding the magical one.

A minor similarity in the two stories is that they both had companions. The Last Hero had his 12, and Stannis lets us know in Jon XI of Storm that "Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone". Sometimes the readership forgets this subtle line from the Stan Man. It doesn't mean he is talking about the 12 companions, but interesting to note. 

10 hours ago, Faera said:

To argue that TLH, AA, Eldric Shadowchaser etc... were all the same person seems a bit too much of a stretch considering these are kingdoms and cultures separated by miles of land and sea.

It could be too much of a stretch. I do, however, think it is possible that the author wants us to envision thousands of years of tales being told and retold to eventually lead to people's coming up with their own versions of the hero that saved the day.

I could see sailors asking each other, "What happened with that whole darkness thing a while back?" Then the tale is transformed and changed throughout the telling and retelling over thousands of years and miles. 

Also, when the Long Night 2.0 comes, doesn't it feel like there is only going to be one main hero? I could be wrong here as well, but that is my feeling. People will help our main hero, but there will be one central hero.

10 hours ago, Faera said:

If the LN was everywhere then you can probably presume a lot of places were cut off, doing their own fighting and coming up with the solutions by themselves...

Very true. 

10 hours ago, Faera said:

The AA legend also sits badly with me because it presents the notion of a "Chosen One" who needs to save the world- rather than it being a team effort, if that makes sense? TLH isn't some glorious chosen saviour (you've said yourself in the past he was a bit of a screw-up, really) but instead one of a group of men trying to complete a task

AA did have a team, as did the LH. We don't know what happened to AA's team, but the LH's team was killed, other than him. So eventually he was the "Last Hero". Perhaps AA had heroes with him as well, but they died first.

10 hours ago, Faera said:

In comparison, when I look at AA, I see an unpleasant man who used blood magic in order to create a sword.

Yes. And unfortunately the LH tale doesn't tell us how he acquired his magic sword. Did the children just give it to him? Maybe he had to do something sacrificial/blood magic related as well. Who knows?

 

10 hours ago, Faera said:

Even if AA was a real man who made a real sword I see no reason why he need be the same name as the Last Hero; they could have come to similar conclusions independently from each other.

Absolutely. I could be wrong on everything I wrote up here but I wanted to present everything in a more coherent manor so everyone could hopefully get where I am coming from. George is being, what I like to call, "purposefully ambiguous" with these save the day legends. He knows his readers will wonder if they are separate people or the same.  

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Each religion has its chosen one and the lines between myth and religion get blurred sometimes.  

 

[Curled Finger]

46 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Ha ha, you know where this discussion is probably heading.    The members of this forum and the fans in general are divided you know.  No need to explain.   

Allow me to guess.  Where we differ is who we think is Azor Ahai?  Is that correct?   

 

Well, it looks like it's going how I hoped, with many opposing ideas I can research and come to my own truth with.  The truth is that I haven't been convinced yet because I find conflicting text.   I counted up all the heroes named and credited with ending the Long Night and I've got 11 or 12.   If I can find 1 more I win in naming all the companions!   But seriously, I'm open to all these ideas.   At this stage in the game we should all have opinions over questions about something as important as the Last Hero.  I have hit the proverbial wall with TLH.   Did he only find the COTF or did he also lead the NW against the Others?   This bugs me in ways you can't imagine.   

AA, TPTWP, the dog, TLH, the quests, the battle--I don't know who is who.   I have a lot of ideas, but very little that I am convinced of.   I don't know that Dawn is Lightbringer, but I think it just might be the "flaming sword" and/or dragon steel sword.  I really enjoyed the discussion directly above.   Maybe Azor Ahai was an after thought post event creation.  Maybe the Crab King did something locally awesome and later was credited with ending the Long Night.  Maybe TLH is 1 guy and maybe TLH is a bunch of guys.   I don't know.    I was happier with my ideas about TLH when he just went on quest and ended up breaking his sword.   I had a lot of fun trying to figure out what the COTF could possibly have done for him.   It's the Nights Watch part that bugs me.   And Brandon the Builder, he bugs me a lot in all this.   So friend, I'm not looking for a fight, just excellent thoughts like you posted originally.   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

9 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Each religion has its chosen one and the lines between myth and religion get blurred sometimes.  

 

I don't think religion comes into these specific legends. Of the Last Hero, Hyrkoon, Neferion, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, and Eldric Shadowchaser, only AA figures as a religious legend. I suppose we have a lack of information on Hyrkoon, Neferion, Eldric, and Yin Tar, but there is no indication that they are worshiped or thought of in a religious manner.

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Faera said:

ETA: Sorry, for some reason my full response to you disappeared when I was trying to do my thoughts to CF... So, here we go.

I agree with you on this.

So we agree to agree! 

...and I really like the idea that Azor Ahai might have never been an actual person but a concept that the Last Hero (or any heroic figure who physically fought the Others) might have later be retroactively pasted into once the entire event was over. Once the world was no longer in crisis and trade routes re-opened, it would make sense that if word got wind that a dude with a sword killed "monsters" that caused the cold and darkness, they could also fit it to suit what they wanted it to be. No one could say otherwise. 

After all, we have no strong evidence that the AA ever involved him fighting the Others, just fought the Darkness. Welp, the darkness could be anything.  The LH on the other hand definitely is said to have fought White Walkers.

I was so ready to quote you and @kissdbyfire after each post, but I'm glad I let the line of conversation unwind before jumping in.   Well, I read all the way down and look forward to your conversations with @OtherFromAnotherMother.   Remember when it was fun like this all the time on the forum?   Carry on.   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@Faera

I forgot to add in my earlier post some stuff about Eldric Shadowchaser and Hyrkoon the Hero. I wrote about them upthread if you are interested, but I believe they both share a lot in common with our Azor Ahai and LH. A quick summary would be that they are both based on characters in a different book series which features them both wielding soul stealing magic swords. Very Lightbringerish....

Quote

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

 

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

 

Yet the Great Empire of the Dawn was not reborn, for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day. Or so the men and women of the Further East believe.

This also points to our heroes being the same person. All are included except for the Last Hero. Of course, the maesters could be wrong, but it makes sense for each different group of people to have their own version of the same hero following the destruction of the Great Empire of the Dawn. 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't think religion comes into these specific legends. Of the Last Hero, Hyrkoon, Neferion, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, and Eldric Shadowchaser, only AA figures as a religious legend. I suppose we have a lack of information on Hyrkoon, Neferion, Eldric, and Yin Tar, but there is no indication that they are worshiped or thought of in a religious manner.

I'm having so much fun with this, Brother!   Please allow me to offer a small possible connection.   Knights were supposed to have come from the Andals and presumably the Faith of the Seven--not unlike the Knights of the Round Table.   In the case of Ser Galladon, the Perfect Knight, his sword, Just Maid, was given to him directly by the Maiden.  I know it's not much, but it goes to religion insinuating itself into folklore.   I fail to see the difference between a god personally giving a weapon to a hero and a guy following the trail of a falling star to make a weapon from.   They both came from heaven.   Thanks to YOU I have 100% more information regarding Eldric and Hyrkoon than I had last week and it's a good start.   You offered up a really nice comparison between TLH and AA above.  As I read it I began to remember the story of Galldon so there is my small offering to the similarities in religious and cultural legends.   

As to keeping up, Brother, we are all who are left here.   Everyone else went out and started a youtube channel!   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm having so much fun with this, Brother!   Please allow me to offer a small possible connection.   Knights were supposed to have come from the Andals and presumably the Faith of the Seven--not unlike the Knights of the Round Table.   In the case of Ser Galladon, the Perfect Knight, his sword, Just Maid, was given to him directly by the Maiden.  I know it's not much, but it goes to religion insinuating itself into folklore.   I fail to see the difference between a god personally giving a weapon to a hero and a guy following the trail of a falling star to make a weapon from.   They both came from heaven.   Thanks to YOU I have 100% more information regarding Eldric and Hyrkoon than I had last week and it's a good start.   You offered up a really nice comparison between TLH and AA above.  As I read it I began to remember the story of Galldon so there is my small offering to the similarities in religious and cultural legends.   

Oh I didn't mean that religion didn't come into the cultural legends at all. I thought @James Fenimore Cooper XXII was looking at Yin Tar, Hyrkoon, Last Hero, etc. in the same light that the R'hollorists look at Azor Ahai, which I don't think is the case. Only Azor Ahai is looked at as a "chosen one" as James put it.

Absolutely there are connections between legends and religion, though.

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As to keeping up, Brother, we are all who are left here.   Everyone else went out and started a youtube channel!   

[Corvo the Crow]

On 7/30/2018 at 11:26 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

A while back someone proposed an idea that perhaps this bloody blade is not his sword, but his penis. Brandon bred with the children as well as killed them. Maybe George is toying with the bloody sword/bloody penis symbolism, i.e. Barbrey Dustin's talk in the crypts with Theon about another Brandon.

Perhaps Rose of the Red Lake is his daughter from a children? She does have a short, simple name as the children we see have(as their "human names) but first men name are simple and short in general.

But again, the simple fact she is of RED Lake and not BLUE tells us that she was born, or at least started the house after the lake has turned red. And her CoA being Light Blue as a winter rose is too much of a coincidence.

[Faera]

@OtherFromAnotherMother I agree with you make valid points and, honesty, it has never occurred to me prior to @kissdbyfire pointing out the idea that these stories could well have been the Last Hero but distorted for religious reasons and propaganda. One thing that has always sat badly with me is this notion that Azor Ahai was some sort of religious chosen one and that his second coming simply. Yet this notion that the unassuming Last Hero was the root of all these legends is far more compelling because it would show how one man's struggle became a completely overblown myth riddled with prophecies.

Also that quote you found...

On 8/1/2018 at 3:52 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@Faera

I forgot to add in my earlier post some stuff about Eldric Shadowchaser and Hyrkoon the Hero. I wrote about them upthread if you are interested, but I believe they both share a lot in common with our Azor Ahai and LH. A quick summary would be that they are both based on characters in a different book series which features them both wielding soul stealing magic swords. Very Lightbringerish....

This also points to our heroes being the same person. All are included except for the Last Hero. Of course, the maesters could be wrong, but it makes sense for each different group of people to have their own version of the same hero following the destruction of the Great Empire of the Dawn. 

If they point to all those figures are thought to be the same person, yet TLH has been left out, it would be ironic if all of them are are him despite him being the least over blow. Ironic and a little sad. It would be another example about how most people have forgotten rather than remembered the lessons from the past.

Perhaps the idea of composite characters too? I stand my feeling that different cultures across the world would have developed their own 'hero' but stories of the LH having reached them might have led to the blending and mixing of the stories.

On 8/1/2018 at 3:49 AM, Curled Finger said:

I was so ready to quote you and @kissdbyfire after each post, but I'm glad I let the line of conversation unwind before jumping in.   Well, I read all the way down and look forward to your conversations with @OtherFromAnotherMother.   Remember when it was fun like this all the time on the forum?   Carry on.   

Haha! We still want to hear what you think too, CF! So.please feel free to butt in here and there. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

Yet this notion that the unassuming Last Hero was the root of all these legends is far more compelling because it would show how one man's struggle became a completely overblown myth riddled with prophecies

I like this take.

2 hours ago, Faera said:

If they point to all those figures are thought to be the same person, yet TLH has been left out,

The quote is from the Yi Ti and beyond section of the World Book. That could be part of why The Last Hero is not mentioned, he being a northern Westerosi legend. Or maybe he is left out because he is not the same... 

2 hours ago, Faera said:

I stand my feeling that different cultures across the world would have developed their own 'hero' but stories of the LH having reached them might have led to the blending and mixing of the stories.

Definitely possible. 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

Haha! We still want to hear what you think too, CF! So.please feel free to butt in here and there. 

Absolutely!

[Curled Finger]

OK, I'm pondering this and you all know I have a different and unavoidable bent where all this is concerned.   I am thinking that our posse of heroes, AA, Eldric, Hyrkoon, Crab King, Old Man River, the Woman with the Monkey Tail, etc, probably are "real people" regionally.   I think they may have performed some great feat and in their own way maybe lived during the Long Night.   I'm looking at the folks who ended the conflict between the COTF and 1st Men--the wise men among them with the prevailing calmer heads.  I expect that each of these heroes has at least that in common with TLH.   Just as @kissdbyfire  says, it's entirely possible that the deeds of TLH have been somewhat appointed to each of the great men and women.  It's also entirely possible that other folks like me, lost track of TLH after he has his powwow with the COTF.   Great.   Then what happened?   Did the COTF sing their song of the earth so that the lesser gods of the Rhoyne could join them?  Was TLH's name Eldric?  He came from somewhere, as did all his companions who were lost on the quest.  There were a dozen companions, a horse and a dog.   And an eventually broken sword.   I think all this is actually happening to some degree in the current story.   I believe I've identified TLH for the story we have.  Sadly, my #1 choice has zero hope of joining the Nights Watch or becoming Lord Commander.   He's got a rusty sword, not broken.   He's got a wolf, not a dog and the last thing I saw him ride was an elk, not a horse.   He does have his very own monster and 3 companions left.   Could this person lead the Nights watch to the Others?   I think he could.   Being a combined knight is a big deal to this guy.   Sadly another character is clearly written for the TLH who leads the NW to battle.  Best I can hope for is my guy will be with them.  I explained all that because it's easier than trying to dance around it.   TLH is more than 1 person.   I still say there is something to the name, The Last Hero, that lends certain irony to multiple people wearing that moniker.   I think Bran's musings on the possibility of he and Hodor together being a knight may be a hint toward this duplicity as well as Jon's hellfire battle dream.    Now I can totally become absorbed and distracted with the argument, well if Jon fights the others he would be AA or TPTWP.    OK, yah, and TLH--they do all essentially reference a BAMF hero who pretty much fulfills legend, prophecy and perhaps cycle of time.   I hope that made sense.     

[The Sleeper]

On the flip side of the argument of who the real hero is who ended the Long Night is, it could be the case that none of them are. 

While the Long Night is a real event that left lasting scars in collective memory, its end could have grown to be attributed to mythological/messianic figures inspired by actual people who may or may not have existed to begin with or may or not have anything much to do or at all with the resolution of the Long Night. It could be that some of these figures were conceived long after the Long Night and retroactively associated with those events. After all it is supposed to be the mythology of the world of ice and fire and its purpose is to add depth to the world and introduce certain element in the story that will be important. 

I would say we were never meant to know, but as a pilot has been approved for the events of the Long Night it looks like we will.

As for the flaming sword, I had started a thread which has been lost since in the depths of the forum about me thinking it was a thing. Yes, an actual flaming sword, probably Dawn, which though no more than a tool was particularly useful and eye-catching and remained in myth. The main points are:

• It seems to be possible to conjure fire from obsidian. 
• As obsidian is formed naturally from extreme heat, the stuff that Dawn is made from has similar properties. 
• Valyrian steel making is an artificial process that results in materials that can duplicate those properties.
• Thoros and Beric were able to be set theirs swords ablaze, but the effect is not permanent and the regular sword do not weather the process well. 
• Valyrian steel would not be compromised. 
• Flaming swords will be made again; the process would likely involve fire magic and bleeding. 

[Curled Finger]

On 8/4/2018 at 3:30 AM, The Sleeper said:

On the flip side of the argument of who the real hero is who ended the Long Night is, it could be the case that none of them are. 

While the Long Night is a real event that left lasting scars in collective memory, its end could have grown to be attributed to mythological/messianic figures inspired by actual people who may or may not have existed to begin with or may or not have anything much to do or at all with the resolution of the Long Night. It could be that some of these figures were conceived long after the Long Night and retroactively associated with those events. After all it is supposed to be the mythology of the world of ice and fire and its purpose is to add depth to the world and introduce certain element in the story that will be important. 

I would say we were never meant to know, but as a pilot has been approved for the events of the Long Night it looks like we will.

As for the flaming sword, I had started a thread which has been lost since in the depths of the forum about me thinking it was a thing. Yes, an actual flaming sword, probably Dawn, which though no more than a tool was particularly useful and eye-catching and remained in myth. The main points are:

• It seems to be possible to conjure fire from obsidian. 
• As obsidian is formed naturally from extreme heat, the stuff that Dawn is made from has similar properties. 
• Valyrian steel making is an artificial process that results in materials that can duplicate those properties.
• Thoros and Beric were able to be set theirs swords ablaze, but the effect is not permanent and the regular sword do not weather the process well. 
• Valyrian steel would not be compromised. 
• Flaming swords will be made again; the process would likely involve fire magic and bleeding. 

All good points, @The Sleeper.   One small item for clarification though.   We know Tobho Mott was er frustrated with Thoros for torching his swords with wildfyre and ruining them.  Beric sets his sword alight with his own blood.   I don't recall any mention of what impact the fire has on his sword.  Please correct if this is in error.   I've been reading lately with the feeling that all the important things are happening again.   Now you've got fire magic and bleeding listed.  I figure this is how "Lightbringer" will be activated.  Your thoughts sort of allow me to wander into more than 1 flaming sword.   Epic.   I would have enjoyed your topic, bummer it's been archived.    

[kissdbyfire]

I've been reading but don't have much to add yet... I like the ideas @The Sleeper brought to the convo. And now I find myself once again wondering about Lightbringer and its forging. @Curled Finger, I hope this is not too OT-ish but like, more of a tangent! So. from what we hear, AA and Lightbringer are heavily associated w/ fighting "darkness" and/or LN (I lean towards "and" here because I have a feeling these two are not one and the same. At the same time, we hear about the LH also ending the LN. We hear more about the former than the latter; what we get on AA is more detailed, and comes from more than one source - even if one of these sources (Mel) is hugely biased. I'm drawing a blank here, do we hear about the LH from anyone other than ON and maybe a brief bit by maester Luwin? Anyway... I know we have other characters that are also linked to fighting darkness/LN, but I think the really important info will be in the main novels. So, again, looking at the LH and AA, I can't help but be intrigued about the fact that we have (literally?) zero commonalities/similarities between the two legends. The very basic:

- LH:

had a group w/ him, w/ humans and animals

seeks out another race to ask for help

- AA:

works alone

blood sacrifice

magical weapon 

I would expect for a legend that has been extrapolated and imported from a far-away land to have at least some sort of connection or similarity or something w/ the original (true) story. This is something that I have often thought about, but not sure where to go w/ it. 

And in a way I just argued against my previous post, I know. And I still think both are possible even if they seem a tad contradictory.