divica Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said: Because, he arranged the dwarf jousters, to perform just before the murder, causing a confrontation between Tyrion and Joffrey, just before the murder. Maybe he even said to Joffrey, when telling him about the jousters, "embarrass your uncle by making him your cupbearer". If he had so much power over joffrey why kill him instead of tyrion? He would still get sansa and keep having power over the king (and weren t the jousters in the middle of the festivities?). And if I remember right LF wasn t in Kingslanding for a long time before the wedding. I don t think he could have talked with joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Trefayne said: It would seem that LF didn't tell the Tyrells everything. They get rid of Joff and, if his plan goes off like he hopes, Tyrion takes the rap and is executed for it. Between Tywin and Cersei wanting his head rather than not it seemed a good 80/20 bet. People are confused about why Sansa disappears, but the Tyrells can't say a word without incriminating themselves. LF is off the hook and looking spotless as usual. The problem with this is that the tyrells are a major house. If they suspect that LF took sansa away they would send their spies to the vale… And when they found out alaine then the tyrells would demand sansa so that they can use her. And there isn t much LF can do about this. He can t go to the lannisters and say he was involved in the plot to kill joff nor demand the vale to fight to keep his bastard, nor say she is sansa stark because the lannisters would demand her head then... It doesn t make sense that the tyrells ploted with LF and let him take sansa... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unacosamedarisa Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 minute ago, divica said: If he had so much power over joffrey why kill him instead of tyrion? He had some influence (some people suspect it was LF whispering in Joff's ear that caused Joff to call for Ned's head, instead of exiling him to the Watch), but not total control. Or, his influence wouldn't stop Joffrey beating and abusing Margaery. 2 minutes ago, divica said: And if I remember right LF wasn t in Kingslanding for a long time before the wedding. I don t think he could have talked with joffrey. Quote "Tell me of the feast. The queen took such pains. The singers, the jugglers, the dancing bear . . . did your little lord husband enjoy my jousting dwarfs?" "Yours?" "I had to send to Braavos for them and hide them away in a brothel until the wedding. The expense was exceeded only by the bother. It is surprisingly difficult to hide a dwarf, and Joffrey . . . you can lead a king to water, but with Joff one had to splash it about before he realized he could drink it. When I told him about my little surprise, His Grace said, 'Why would I want some ugly dwarfs at my feast? I hate dwarfs.' I had to take him by the shoulder and whisper, 'Not as much as your uncle will.'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unacosamedarisa Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Thats some pretty heavy speculation As is the idea Olenna and LF somehow predicted the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion, months in advance, and started an unnecessarily elaborate plan to kill Tyrion, months in advance of a possibility. At least with the dwarves we know that LF suggested them to Joffrey, specifically to taunt Tyrion... the cupbearer suggestion is just a minor speculation added on to that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, divica said: The problem with this is that the tyrells are a major house. If they suspect that LF took sansa away they would send their spies to the vale… And when they found out alaine then the tyrells would demand sansa so that they can use her. And there isn t much LF can do about this. He can t go to the lannisters and say he was involved in the plot to kill joff nor demand the vale to fight to keep his bastard, nor say she is sansa stark because the lannisters would demand her head then... It doesn t make sense that the tyrells ploted with LF and let him take sansa... You expect the Tyrells to go to the Arryns and the rest of the Vale houses and tell them they helped to kill the King? Remember, the Vale is neutral so far and there is no telling what they would do. It's part of the reason LF sequestered Sansa there. Plus we have no evidence the Tyrells know Sansa's whereabouts any more than Brienne does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said: He had some influence (some people suspect it was LF whispering in Joff's ear that caused Joff to call for Ned's head, instead of exiling him to the Watch), but not total control. Or, his influence wouldn't stop Joffrey beating and abusing Margaery. Ok. LF could have talked with joff and convinced him to make tyrion his cupbearer. Even though he didn t gloat about it as he gloated about everthing in his plan… (which makes it seem less likely). But even then he had no way of knowing tywin would let tyrion die. With Jaime in the KG tywin needs na heir. and the easiest way to get one is with tyrion having kids. Besides, now that tyrion was married to sansa he was a useful politcal tool… Sansa is the way to the north... And if tyrion doesn t die LF has no use for sansa... The plan that always make most sense and has less uncontrolable variables is that LF wanted to kill tyrion and the tyrells weren t involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unacosamedarisa Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 minute ago, divica said: And if tyrion doesn t die LF has no use for sansa... But, Tyrion didn't die. So what use does LF have for Sansa now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unacosamedarisa Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 minute ago, divica said: The plan that always make most sense and has less uncontrolable variables is that LF wanted to kill tyrion and the tyrells weren t involved. The Tyrells were involved though... Olenna took the poison from Sansa's hairnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Trefayne said: You expect the Tyrells to go to the Arryns and the rest of the Vale houses and tell them they helped to kill the King? Remember, the Vale is neutral so far and there is no telling what they would do. It's part of the reason LF sequestered Sansa there. Plus we have no evidence the Tyrells know Sansa's whereabouts any more than Brienne does. WHAT!? you misunderstood me. The tyrells would send their spies to spy on LF to find out about sansa… when the spies find alaine (which is easy to guess is sansa if you are looking for some girl LF is hiding) then they would demand sansa from LF. What is LF suposed to do against a major house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said: The Tyrells were involved though... Olenna took the poison from Sansa's hairnet. that is what LF says. We have no proof olena did such thing. Why would olena need sansa's hairnet to smugle poison into the wedding? she could just keep it in her pockets and take it out when she needed it. There is zero motives to include sansa's hairnet in the plot! Hell, what would they do if sansa noticed olena taking a jewel from he hairnet? or if she didn t wear the hairnet? It is simply a ridiculous idea…. 8 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said: But, Tyrion didn't die. So what use does LF have for Sansa now? Nobody really knows. Besides trying to make a marriage that as far as we know is ilegal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said: As is the idea Olenna and LF somehow predicted the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion, months in advance, and started an unnecessarily elaborate plan to kill Tyrion, months in advance of a possibility. At least with the dwarves we know that LF suggested them to Joffrey, specifically to taunt Tyrion... the cupbearer suggestion is just a minor speculation added on to that fact. Robb has one heir. A bastard at the wall and three "dead child sibilings". This heir is the North and has strong claim to the Riverlands. Sansa is destined for Joffrey. Olenna wants Margery as queen instead. Sansas gonna marry someone, shes of age, a ward of the crown, and the North. This may be heavy speculation, but its a conversation had by two conniving Players of the game about war, peace and the future far from any POV. We have to assume and we should assume its heavy. So lets assume that Olenna wants Sansa (because she does) Petyr says thatll be difficult without going through backchannels, so Olenna says lets go through backchannels. And its not like the date was randomly picked, it was ideal for distractions, like jousting dwarfs and an uncle that cant keep his mouth shut. Petyr telling Joff to be cupbearer not only probably never happend. Itd be stupid. The walls have ears in the red keep amd the spider always knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, divica said: WHAT!? you misunderstood me. The tyrells would send their spies to spy on LF to find out about sansa… when the spies find alaine (which is easy to guess is sansa if you are looking for some girl LF is hiding) then they would demand sansa from LF. What is LF suposed to do against a major house? Since Dontos seems to be the one who spirited Sansa away and no one we know of knows that he and LF were conspiring except Sansa, how are the Tyrells going to know to even look for Sansa with LF in the Vale? From their perspective he seems to have everything he wanted and is out of their hair. As far as we know, only Sansa and LF know that Dontos gave the hairnet to her. There is no indication (by my recollection) that anyone else is privy to that information. I suppose they could try and send spies, but the Vale is notoriously hard to get into. They don't trust outsiders easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unacosamedarisa Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Just now, divica said: There is zero motives to include sansa's hairnet in the plot! Then why did GRRM include it? Why include the part about Olenna adjusting Sansa's hair? How did LF know Olenna adjusted Sansa's hair at the wedding feast? Would have been kind of awkward if that didn't happen... "I will wager you that at some point during the evening someone told you that your hair net was crooked and straightened it for you." "No, no one did that at all". 4 minutes ago, divica said: Why would olena need sansa's hairnet to smugle poison into the wedding? Because, they're trying to kill a King. They don't want anything that can possibly come back on them, so they arrange for a patsy to smuggle the poison into the wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said: Because, they're trying to kill a King. They don't want anything that can possibly come back on them, so they arrange for a patsy to smuggle the poison into the wedding. Exactly. If things go south you blame it on the traitor's daughter. It's Rat Fink 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unacosamedarisa Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Robb has one heir. A bastard at the wall and three "dead child sibilings". Not at the time the plan is set in motion... Dontos gives Sansa the poison at the end of ACoK, Bran and Rickon don't "die" until near the end of ACoK, and that news doesn't spread until the end of ACoK (Theon has all the ravens killed in Winterfell, and keeps Bran and Rickon's quiet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Trefayne said: Since Dontos seems to be the one who spirited Sansa away and no one we know of knows that he and LF were conspiring except Sansa, how are the Tyrells going to know to even look for Sansa with LF in the Vale? From their perspective he seems to have everything he wanted and is out of their hair. As far as we know, only Sansa and LF know that Dontos gave to hairnet to her. There is no indication (by my recollection) that anyone else is privy to that information. I suppose they could try and send spies, but the Vale is notoriously hard to get into. They don't trust outsiders easily. In order to escape KL someone would need to have a plan and be ready to execute it. Who would be the prime suspect besides the man that knows someone is going to die at the wedding? He would be the only one that know it would be a perfect oportunity to smugle sansa out and have thing ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, divica said: In order to escape KL someone would need to have a plan and be ready to execute it. Who would be the prime suspect besides the man that knows someone is going to die at the wedding? He would be the only one that know it would be a perfect oportunity to smugle sansa out and have thing ready. The Tyrells would have to be very motivated. Sansa is still damaged goods and Roose Bolton has tightened his grip on the North by marrying fArya to Ramsey. A bold move, but necessary since all of his support (Tywin, Joff) in KL is gone and no one really knows if Sansa is alive or dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said: Then why did GRRM include it? Why include the part about Olenna adjusting Sansa's hair? How did LF know Olenna adjusted Sansa's hair at the wedding feast? Would have been kind of awkward if that didn't happen... "I will wager you that at some point during the evening someone told you that your hair net was crooked and straightened it for you." "No, no one did that at all". Because, they're trying to kill a King. They don't want anything that can possibly come back on them, so they arrange for a patsy to smuggle the poison into the wedding. If they don t want anything to come back to them then they woudn t want to take a jewel from sansa's head in front of a crowd when olena could have taken it from her pockets! It is much much much less risky! The only reason to smugle poison that way is because the person that is going to use the poison couldn t smugle the poison. which isn t the case with olena! However if one of LF agents wanted to kill tyrion then the hairnet makes sense. The problem is saying olena would need sansa's hairnet or that someone would inspect olena's pockets to see if she has poison there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Trefayne said: The Tyrells would have to be very motivated. Sansa is still damaged goods and Roose Bolton has tightened his grip on the North by marrying fArya to Ramsey. A bold move, but necessary since all of his support (Tywin, Joff) in KL is gone and no one really knows if Sansa is alive or dead. However sansa has strong connections to 3 kingdoms! She has potential to be super useful. Someone like olena wouldn t just let her go… Hell, if robin and edmure die (which isn t all that unlikely) with the right backing sansa can have claims to the 3 kingdoms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unacosamedarisa Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, divica said: The only reason to smugle poison that way is because the person that is going to use the poison couldn t smugle the poison. which isn t the case with olena! However if one of LF agents wanted to kill tyrion then the hairnet makes sense. The problem is saying olena would need sansa's hairnet or that someone would inspect olena's pockets to see if she has poison there... Then why did Olenna adjust the hair net? How did LF know Olenna adjusted the hair net? How did this hypothetical agent of LF get the poison from the hair net, if no one other than Olenna adjusted the hair net? Olenna is killing a King, she wants as little connection between her and the poison as possible... she doesn't want to be seen being given the poison by whoever acquires it, and the walls have ears and eyes in the Red Keep. She doesn't want it stored in her rooms incase a little bird discovers it. She wants as little contact with the poison as possible... so, Sansa smuggles it in, she touches Sansa's hair, and acquires a single crystal there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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