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Heresy 211 Eight Cairns


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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Since it's a genre that GRRM might have read, and this author is a contemporary of Lovecraft, I wonder if GRRM could be aware of this story?

Oh, I’m certain of it.  Howard is the father of the sword and sorcery genre and creator of Conan the Barbarian—influence of that (the Howard version and the later comic version) in GRRM’s work is well noted.   Nice find!

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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

What happens if you disturb the wrong grave site? What might rise from it and how might it affect the people that were there, and life after the monster is released? Some elements here remind me of the weirnet, visitation from the dead, a dark god of ice and darkness and shadow, a tentacled beast which could be a kraken or leviathan, and a sprig of holly (Holly King/Winter King hints, perhaps). And then the Odin/Bloodraven similarities are involved as well.  

Don’t forget the underlying idea of an Old God that has been forgotten...one who has eyes again!

my interest was further piqued by the mention of talons and vulture wings, and darkness and shadow, as that ties in with what I am desperately trying to finish up on the TOJ which supposedly is where Ned’s eight cairns are built.  

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6 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:
2 hours ago, St Daga said:

What happens if you disturb the wrong grave site? What might rise from it and how might it affect the people that were there, and life after the monster is released? Some elements here remind me of the weirnet, visitation from the dead, a dark god of ice and darkness and shadow, a tentacled beast which could be a kraken or leviathan, and a sprig of holly (Holly King/Winter King hints, perhaps). And then the Odin/Bloodraven similarities are involved as well.  

Don’t forget the underlying idea of an Old God that has been forgotten...one who has eyes again!

my interest was further piqued by the mention of talons and vulture wings, and darkness and shadow, as that ties in with what I am desperately trying to finish up on the TOJ which supposedly is where Ned’s eight cairns are built.  

He who's true name must not be spoken? The Great Other! Or something else, perhaps, something that lies between Red Rahloo and the Great Other? Three seems so important in this story, I find it hard to think there are not three major players, although they are perhaps parts of one great whole deity/magic!

Glad some of this might be helping your theory! 

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4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

He who's true name must not be spoken? The Great Other! Or something else, perhaps, something that lies between Red Rahloo and the Great Other? Three seems so important in this story, I find it hard to think there are not three major players, although they are perhaps parts of one great whole deity/magic!

Glad some of this might be helping your theory! 

3 old gods  and 7 new gods (the faith of the 7) mayhaps ? 

From that perspective Ned's fight certainly is a foreshadow.

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They say the old gods are of rock, stream, and forest - basically nature, but shouldn't the gods of sea and wind be included in that list?

The god of the sea is the Drowned God, and the goddess of the wind is the Storm God. The Ironborn are First Men descendants, but they only recognize these two gods, whereas the Children of the Forest seem to be associated with rock, stream, and forest. And the Starks - which old gods do they recognize? 

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30 minutes ago, St Daga said:

He who's true name must not be spoken? The Great Other! Or something else, perhaps, something that lies between Red Rahloo and the Great Other? Three seems so important in this story, I find it hard to think there are not three major players, although they are perhaps parts of one great whole deity/magic!

Yes!   Three that are one!

 

26 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

3 old gods  and 7 new gods (the faith of the 7) mayhaps ? 

While I agree with others here who reminds us that George most likely will not show us any of these old gods/new gods/red gods/blue gods, I think there is a good chance that we will see the human agents & self-styled mouthpieces of these gods ramp up their (futile/misguided) attempts at bringing them to the big screen via magical use and influence.      I wouldn’t be surprised whatsoever to see things play out as 7 against 3 in a larger sense like this.

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3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

They say the old gods are of rock, stream, and forest - basically nature, but shouldn't the gods of sea and wind be included in that list?

The god of the sea is the Drowned God, and the goddess of the wind is the Storm God. The Ironborn are First Men descendants, but they only recognize these two gods, whereas the Children of the Forest seem to be associated with rock, stream, and forest. And the Starks - which old gods do they recognize? 

Starting to wonder if George was an Earth, Wind, & Fire fan back in the day...

<_<

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11 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Just a thought - if the tower is located in the dornish mountains, there should be no need for Ned to bring down the tower. Stones should be around in masses. 

I suppose it's a symbolic thought, destroying one thing while creating another. Or the tower needed to be destroyed, or it was partially destroyed by what was going on there. However, I would think that there are plenty of stones to use, no matter where you are in Westeros, besides the desert, perhaps. 

I have recently done a little searching when stones are mentioned in the text. The vale is an area that has lot's of stones, as well as Crack Claw point. Something about Brienne's journey to the whispers, her killing of three men (Timeon, Pyg and Shagwell) all the Whisper's being a castle of fallen stone, as well as another tower near it that has fallen, stood out to me. Now, I haven't figured out what it could men to the idea of cairns, because although Brienne buries Dick Crabb under the weirwood, she makes no cairn for him, at least that we are told. But it's a grave. And it's a grave she made Shagwell dig, and she does not bury any of the three men she kills, but leaves them exposed to the elements. It stands out to me and I think this scene is trying to tell us how some events that happened in the past. 

Also interesting to me in this chapter is that Brienne starts out as a team of three (even though she doesn't like or trust Dick Crabb) and after she ends the chapter as a team of three, basically replacing Dick with Ser Hyle Hunt (whom she doesn't like or trust). A team of three remains strong imagery in her quest! Even when it was she, Jaime and Cleos Frey, the imagery of three hovers around her. Instead of burying Cleos, Jaime and Brienne fracture even more as a unit by fighting over his sword, and it leads to their capture by the Brave Companions. Somehow, it's all connect to three in her journey's, I think. 

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28 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:
33 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

They say the old gods are of rock, stream, and forest - basically nature, but shouldn't the gods of sea and wind be included in that list?

The god of the sea is the Drowned God, and the goddess of the wind is the Storm God. The Ironborn are First Men descendants, but they only recognize these two gods, whereas the Children of the Forest seem to be associated with rock, stream, and forest. And the Starks - which old gods do they recognize? 

Starting to wonder if George was an Earth, Wind, & Fire fan back in the day...

<_<

Haha! Seriously just heard Dark Star by Crosby, Still and Nash the other day and had to check out the lyrics. The Grateful Dead also have a Dark Star, and both songs have interesting lyrics that could have served as a bit of inspiration for the author, I think.

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28 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

3 old gods  and 7 new gods (the faith of the 7) mayhaps ? 

From that perspective Ned's fight certainly is a foreshadow.

The numbers work, but I am not sure these will be the three or seven forces in play. As a matter of fact, I think the seven might actually be one (they are seven in one) of the terrible forces in play in the story. So, perhaps a different three and different seven.

 

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

They say the old gods are of rock, stream, and forest - basically nature, but shouldn't the gods of sea and wind be included in that list?

The god of the sea is the Drowned God, and the goddess of the wind is the Storm God. The Ironborn are First Men descendants, but they only recognize these two gods, whereas the Children of the Forest seem to be associated with rock, stream, and forest. And the Starks - which old gods do they recognize? 

I would think there are more of these natural deities of the world that might come into play. As to the Stark's, who knows. They are certainly associated with snow and ice and winter but how does that apply to nature specifically? Water? Theon tells us that Theon Stark was his namesake. Perhaps the north and iron men are more alike than we think.

 

16 minutes ago, SirArthur said:
19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

And the Starks - which old gods do they recognize? 

They are literally tree huggers - Winterfell borders the wolfswood. 

The Stark's do have a wolf connection, but I can't forget that the wolfswood belonged to the Blacktree's before the Stark's moved them out, and even now it is the Blackwood's that carry a tree on their sigil. Perhaps there is a ancient god of the animals?

It could be tree's, though. I do think it's interesting that we are told that the Stark's worshiped the old gods, the nameless and faceless gods (Cat tells us that, and then introduces us to the red faced weirwood). But the weirwoods are not the only tree's, there are soldier pines and sentinels that seem to play a reoccurring role in the story of the forests. So, perhaps the Stark's are associated with the tree's that have no faces? Not sure where I am going with this, but when Bran was a child, they found him sleeping in the branches of a sentinel tree (he obviously is comfortable there) while as a young child, Bran tells us he was a afraid of the weirwood. Perhaps they all should have been!

 

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GRRM tells us we won't see gods on stage and it will be up to the reader to decide if any gods exist. 

The wierwoods are obviously exceptions, but I don't think we will see any other exceptions. 

So many people jumped on Melisandre's comments about a great Other.  I don't think we will see any Great Other outside the Red Priests beliefs. 

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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

The numbers work, but I am not sure these will be the three or seven forces in play. As a matter of fact, I think the seven might actually be one (they are seven in one) of the terrible forces in play in the story. So, perhaps a different three and different seven.

 

I would think there are more of these natural deities of the world that might come into play. As to the Stark's, who knows. They are certainly associated with snow and ice and winter but how does that apply to nature specifically? Water? Theon tells us that Theon Stark was his namesake. Perhaps the north and iron men are more alike than we think.

 

The Stark's do have a wolf connection, but I can't forget that the wolfswood belonged to the Blacktree's before the Stark's moved them out, and even now it is the Blackwood's that carry a tree on their sigil. Perhaps there is a ancient god of the animals?

It could be tree's, though. I do think it's interesting that we are told that the Stark's worshiped the old gods, the nameless and faceless gods (Cat tells us that, and then introduces us to the red faced weirwood). But the weirwoods are not the only tree's, there are soldier pines and sentinels that seem to play a reoccurring role in the story of the forests. So, perhaps the Stark's are associated with the tree's that have no faces? Not sure where I am going with this, but when Bran was a child, they found him sleeping in the branches of a sentinel tree (he obviously is comfortable there) while as a young child, Bran tells us he was a afraid of the weirwood. Perhaps they all should have been!

 

The First Men don't believe that the weirwoods are the Old Gods, just sacred to them. For them the weirwoods with the faces are instruments of the Old Gods.

The Old Gods = Wierwoods is a CoTF and readers' theory.

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9 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The First Men don't believe that the weirwoods are the Old Gods, just sacred to them. For them the weirwoods with the faces are instruments of the Old Gods.

That is an interesting interpretation. The First Men did follow the old gods but also adopted the weirwoods as their own, as part of the Pact, I think, I always wondered why the men of the north prayed before the weirwoods, but perhaps they think they are message carriers or understand the weirwoods hold history in them?

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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Haha! Seriously just heard Dark Star by Crosby, Still and Nash the other day and had to check out the lyrics. The Grateful Dead also have a Dark Star, and both songs have interesting lyrics that could have served as a bit of inspiration for the author, I think.

George is self-professed Dead Head.  My personal thought is that the red comet is going to make another pass around planetos and make landfall this next time around, probably striking the glacier in the Heart of Winter.  Now strike up the band:

Quote
Dark star crashes, pouring its light into ashes.
Reason tatters, the forces tear loose from the axis.
Searchlight casting for faults in the clouds of delusion.
Shall we go, you and I while we can
Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds?
Mirror shatters in formless reflections of matter.
Glass hand dissolving to ice petal flowers revolving.
Lady in velvet recedes in the nights of goodbye.
 

 

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47 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Not sure where I am going with this, but when Bran was a child, they found him sleeping in the branches of a sentinel tree (he obviously is comfortable there) while as a young child, Bran tells us he was a afraid of the weirwood.

This has me going round in circles lately. 

I originally excused Bran's obsession with climbing as a child going through a stage of rebellion.  I see kids climbing with wreckless abandon all the time, so it's pretty typical (at least in the far north).  Drives me nuts though.  Setting all of that aside, I looked again at what happened in GoT with new skepticism.  Ned and Cat were really struggling with Bran's behavior.  They couldn't stop him.  But this is exactly the kind of thing that GRRM does brilliantly, hide things in plain sight.  Bran would wake in the night and sneak out to climb, then in a fit of guilt confess what he did.  They found him sleeping in the sentinel while being punished for climbing, despite having guards watching over him.  It is pretty outrageous.  What was Ned doing with that punishment?  Is he trying to desensitize Bran to cure the phobia?  Where did Bran get this compulsion?  Does it have anything to do with Waymar ordering Will up into the Sentinel to witness the horrors?  Bran's transition from avoidance to embracing the weirwoods seems very important to his arc.  There has been a tremendous amount of work done on figuring out the weirwoods, but the sentinels seem somewhat overlooked.  Especially when you consider the number of mentions throughout the series and the pivotal role in the GoT prologue.

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