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Heresy 211 Eight Cairns


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53 minutes ago, JNR said:

Do we think GRRM is going to drop a serious clue about what Howland knows just because someone wrote him an e-mail and asked?

I guess we all have to decide that for ourselves, but I wouldn't bet on it.  GRRM is the king of evasive maneuvers.

No, probably not. But he also likes to play games with people asking those questions. I guess I am not saying GRRM is hinting that Howland is "the shadow" but something in the question about Howland drew this specific response from GRRM. Who knows what evil lies in the hearts of men? Or GRRM? At the same time, it could be a mundane response to a question that GRRM just doesn't want to answer. I see lot's of possibilities, and that's is part of the fun of trying to figure this whole story out!

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Rather than viewing this as information passed from Gared to Bran, we should examine the sentinel as a means of escape. If Gared had remained up the tree white walker Royce couldn't have gotten to him - I suppose the cold probably still would have. I agree Bran was trying to help Summer escape, so the sentinel as a means of escape may become significant for Bran in future.

The first introduction we have to the sentinel tree's are to Will climbing it to use it as a look out. First Will looks from below it, then from high in it's branches. But eventually he has to come down. Catelyn talks about the sentinels in the godswood at Winterfell and she describes them as stubborn. Why call a tree stubborn? Some thing that is stubborn doesn't give up. When Bran falls asleep in that sentinel tree as a child, the tree almost has a protective vibe to it. Comfort and protection. Why did Bran climb that tree?

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Rather than viewing this as information passed from Gared to Bran, we should examine the sentinel as a means of escape. If Gared had remained up the tree white walker Royce couldn't have gotten to him - I suppose the cold probably still would have. I agree Bran was trying to help Summer escape, so the sentinel as a means of escape may become significant for Bran in future.

Will was the guy in the tree (and was supposedly killed by Waymar). Gared stayed behind with the horses and we have no idea what he saw or did afterwards (although we can suspect that he took the she-wolf through the Black Gate).

The weird thing about Will is that Waymar's sword reappears in ADwD; did he survive and cross the Wall with the wildlings?

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On 8/12/2018 at 11:17 AM, JNR said:

I think he's just being cute.  As Wikipedia points out:

This is just not a reference many of his readers are likely to get.

It's not unlike the way he seems to think his readers are familiar with the many shortcomings of 70s/80s fantasy (to which he continues to object in interviews).  When he started the series, that was true; today, a quarter-century later, not so much.   What remains true is that he is familiar with those shortcomings.

Yes, he's obtuse and it amuses him to say things that will send readers down a thousand different rabbit holes.  I was curious about the reference.  All I take from it is that whatever information we get about Howland will come from Bran's POV.  We shall see.

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5 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We've discussed Ghost being special or different, but not summer.  Is Bran just stronger or more attached?  Or is summer different somehow? 

Summer and Shaggydog are more or less the only two direwolves who can not only grow up with their attached humans, they are also the only two direwolves left, who could more or less be a rolemodel of how the direwolves should be. Ghost is ghost and silent, Greywind is dead, Lady is dead, Nymeria is seperated.

Thus said, neither Greywind nor Shaggydog seems do be much different from Summer. They each have their personality and colors, but I can't point to something that seperates Summer from Shaggydog. Maybe we can count Ghost in, because Shaggydog is sometimes also creepy. 

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3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Will was the guy in the tree (and was supposedly killed by Waymar). Gared stayed behind with the horses and we have no idea what he saw or did afterwards (although we can suspect that he took the she-wolf through the Black Gate).

The weird thing about Will is that Waymar's sword reappears in ADwD; did he survive and cross the Wall with the wildlings?

Oops, yes, I meant Will not Gared. I was just noting the instances where the sentinels appear to provide a means to escape. It's been said that GRRM often reveals things in "threes". 

In the past I have suggested that the wildlings having Waymar's broken sword was evidence that the wildlings are the ones behind creating white walkers. The band of wildlings that Royce, Gared, and Will were tracking could have become the white walkers that were introduced in the Prologue that ended up attacking Royce and Willl. The sword is the proof.

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7 hours ago, St Daga said:

I guess I am not saying GRRM is hinting that Howland is "the shadow" but something in the question about Howland drew this specific response from GRRM.

Undoubtedly.  There's another SSM, written by a fan about a book signing, that says this:

Quote

We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book...

That one, obviously, doesn't come from GRRM personally, but I find it credible that GRRM said he's kept Howland offstage because of what Howland knows. 

The part about "the central mystery" doesn't seem as credible because GRRM has never said, as far as I know, that there is a central mystery (let alone that Howland is in on it).  I also think Jon's parents, though a carefully designed mystery, is not really the central one.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

All I take from it is that whatever information we get about Howland will come from Bran's POV. 

Do you mean via weirwood visions?  Possibly, although the above SSM seems to suggest Howland is going to show up in the present narrative, because we could easily get both.  I see no reason GRRM couldn't tell Howland's story in multiple ways for a richer total reading experience. 

In fact, and this never occurred to me before, Bran might use the weirwoods to find out who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was, to confirm his theory that it was Howland.

Alternately, the fan who reported the above might have misunderstood what GRRM said -- GRRM could have been hinting about weirwood visions and the fan might have taken that to mean the usual sort of thing: that Howland will eventualy pop up waving a moldy signed parchment that says "I, Rhaegar Targaryen, hereby attest that I am the father of Lyanna Stark's baby, who is my trueborn child since I married Lyanna."

It's kinda funny that this area is so murky, we have to ask ourselves how reliable other fans are, not just how reliable GRRM or the book characters are.  I can think of a case where a fan report proved to be wrong, and Ran had to retract an SSM.

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5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Or is summer different somehow?

Well, Summer's howling as Bran starts his fateful climb has seen a fair amount of discussion in Heresy.

It's always been hard to explain, because

1) Bran is a frequent climber; Summer must have seen him do it before.  Why is Summer flipping out this time?

2) Summer can't possibly sense the Lannisters harbor any evil plans re Bran, because the Lannisters don't even know Bran is there yet.  Their emotions at the time Summer begins howling were, it's fair to say, a little different from that.

3) Summer almost certainly can't use reason to project what will happen at the future point if and when Bran sees the Lannisters bumping uglies.

So it's almost as if Summer has some sort of supernatural awareness of the future, such as many other characters in the story exhibit at other times.

 

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5 hours ago, JNR said:

So it's almost as if Summer has some sort of supernatural awareness of the future, such as many other characters in the story exhibit at other times.

It doesn't really matter in my opinion. Prophecies are already in place. All we can wonder is, if Bran's falling of the tower was always destined to happen and if it is only a matter of joices, how it happens.   

Cersei has a classic greek prophecy in place. By working against it, she fulfills the prophecy. But it will happen anyway. If Summer is supernatural/prophecy bound, this is just more of the same. Is he fulfilling Bran's fall by howling ?

And to turn the argument around: knowing her prophecy, Cersei hardly qualifies as supernatural. 

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9 hours ago, JNR said:

Undoubtedly.  There's another SSM, written by a fan about a book signing, that says this:

That one, obviously, doesn't come from GRRM personally, but I find it credible that GRRM said he's kept Howland offstage because of what Howland knows. 

The part about "the central mystery" doesn't seem as credible because GRRM has never said, as far as I know, that there is a central mystery (let alone that Howland is in on it).  I also think Jon's parents, though a carefully designed mystery, is not really the central one.

Do you mean via weirwood visions?  Possibly, although the above SSM seems to suggest Howland is going to show up in the present narrative, because we could easily get both.  I see no reason GRRM couldn't tell Howland's story in multiple ways for a richer total reading experience. 

In fact, and this never occurred to me before, Bran might use the weirwoods to find out who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was, to confirm his theory that it was Howland.

Alternately, the fan who reported the above might have misunderstood what GRRM said -- GRRM could have been hinting about weirwood visions and the fan might have taken that to mean the usual sort of thing: that Howland will eventualy pop up waving a moldy signed parchment that says "I, Rhaegar Targaryen, hereby attest that I am the father of Lyanna Stark's baby, who is my trueborn child since I married Lyanna."

It's kinda funny that this area is so murky, we have to ask ourselves how reliable other fans are, not just how reliable GRRM or the book characters are.  I can think of a case where a fan report proved to be wrong, and Ran had to retract an SSM. 

Yes. of course he will dribble out information from various POV's.  No doubt in an ambiguous manner but I will be looking specifically at Bran's POV... if we ever see another book.  At this stage, I think Howland has already made an appearance on the page, as the High Sparrow.

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9 hours ago, SirArthur said:

It doesn't really matter in my opinion. Prophecies are already in place.

Summer is a direwolf, to whom no one has told any prophecies... but there he is, howling his lungs out for no apparent reason. 

What's his motive?

9 hours ago, SirArthur said:

And to turn the argument around: knowing her prophecy, Cersei hardly qualifies as supernatural. 

To turn this around, do you think Cersei would have worried about Maggy the Frog's prophecy if she had never met Maggy the Frog or heard the prophecy?

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On 8/12/2018 at 9:33 AM, PrettyPig said:

Just downloaded Dying and one paragraph in my eyebrow is up:  "In the dawn of history, a rogue world pierced a curtain of interstellar dust...the rogue had nothing for Celia, only rock and ice and neverending night...."  <_<

Yes, a planet of rock and ice mixed with a wheel of fire! There is a lot of stunning descriptions in this story. His word-smithing is sometimes quite spectacular and then some times it's "The more she drank, the more she shat...". Hope you enjoy the story. I did, but it took a bit for me to get invested in it. Great world building, and hints at character types we will meet in ASOIAF!

 

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19 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

In the past I have suggested that the wildlings having Waymar's broken sword was evidence that the wildlings are the ones behind creating white walkers. The band of wildlings that Royce, Gared, and Will were tracking could have become the white walkers that were introduced in the Prologue that ended up attacking Royce and Willl. The sword is the proof.

I always pictured the broken sword just lying around until the wildling host moved south, and then someone picked it up for treasure. It has sapphires in the hilt, I think. I do think it's hints at Dawn, which I have come to believe is the broken sword in this story.

21 hours ago, Tucu said:

The weird thing about Will is that Waymar's sword reappears in ADwD; did he survive and cross the Wall with the wildlings?

It has never occurred to me that Will might have survived his choking experience with Waymar's wight. It would be an interesting mirror to Brienne's ending in Feast if Will also managed to say a word that saved him from death!

An interesting thing about Waymar's wight is that it was missing his left eye, which is reported to having a white pupil. Does anyone know which eye Bloodraven has lost?

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15 hours ago, JNR said:

So it's almost as if Summer has some sort of supernatural awareness of the future, such as many other characters in the story exhibit at other times.

He very well might. But this also assumes the reason that Summer was howling was to stop Bran from climbing. Perhaps the direwolf's actions meant something else?

Quote

Bran looked back down. His wolf fell silent, staring up at him through slitted yellow eyes. A strange chill went through him. He began to climb again. Once more the wolf howled. "Quiet," he yelled. "Sit down. Stay. You're worse than Mother." The howling chased him all the way up the tree, until finally he jumped off onto the armory roof and out of sight. AGOT-Bran II

I have never considered this before, but what if Summer was encouraging Bran to climb the tree? What did that "strange chill" mean when Bran felt it. It didn't stop him for climbing, so perhaps it did the opposite? Chased is an interesting word to use in this sentence and I never thought about it before now.

 

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16 hours ago, JNR said:

So it's almost as if Summer has some sort of supernatural awareness of the future, such as many other characters in the story exhibit at other times.

In addition to the incident before Bran's fall, Summer and Shaggydog also begin howling just before the raven arrives to bring word of Eddard's death (though Bran had already sensed the news was coming after he and Rickon had visited the crypts):
 

Quote

Summer began to howl.

Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother's, dread clutched at Bran's heart. "It's coming," he whispered, with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had led him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed. He had wanted Maester Luwin to be right. The crow, he thought, the three-eyed crow …

Other moments that might demonstrate direwolf premonition would be Grey Wind freaking out outside of the Twins as Robb arrives for the Red Wedding, and Ghost's strong reaction to the Fist of the First Men.

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28 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

In addition to the incident before Bran's fall, Summer and Shaggydog also begin howling just before the raven arrives to bring word of Eddard's death (though Bran had already sensed the news was coming after he and Rickon had visited the crypts):
 

Other moments that might demonstrate direwolf premonition would be Grey Wind freaking out outside of the Twins as Robb arrives for the Red Wedding, and Ghost's strong reaction to the Fist of the First Men.

My crackpot theory about Grey Wind's reactions at the Twins, is that he sensed a malevolent presence, a consciousness viewing the events from the eyes of one of the Freys.  If you go to the epilogue in ASOS, we have Merrett Frey going to Oldstones to try and ransom his cousin back from the Brotherhood without Banners.  Merrett starts get a pounding headache as he gets near the meeting place.  We hear about another character, Gregor Clegane, who also suffers from bad headaches.  My gut tells me that the headaches are caused by the presence of a telepath (skinchanger) peeking into their craniums.  If I had to guess, one of the Freys is a skinchanger (and according to Varamyr an abomination), using his own family members (at least the dumber more susceptible ones) as a host.  And if I had to guess which Frey, it would be my buddy Lord Walder.

As for Summer's reaction to Bran, Summer having a prophetic glimpse to Bran's fall might be explained to his telepathic link to Bran both in the here and now and in the weirnet.  If Bran does eventually fully enter the weirnet, it wouldn't surprise me if his consciousness looks back to the moment he falls from the tower, and Summer is sensing Bran's future consciousness, and picking up on the anxiety future Bran probably feels in viewing that moment.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My crackpot theory about Grey Wind's reactions at the Twins, is that he sensed a malevolent presence, a consciousness viewing the events from the eyes of one of the Freys.  If you go to the epilogue in ASOS, we have Merrett Frey going to Oldstones to try and ransom his cousin back from the Brotherhood without Banners.  Merrett starts get a pounding headache as he gets near the meeting place.  We hear about another character, Gregor Clegane, who also suffers from bad headaches.  My gut tells me that the headaches are caused by the presence of a telepath (skinchanger) peeking into their craniums.  

Merrett had headaches since being hit on the head with a mace, he was also a drunk.  He is a minor character who never did anything significant. 

Gregor being warged has more merit, if you could control anyone, why not the biggest, strongest body around?  He is also known for unpredictable behavior, and wouldn't cause much suspicion if he went missing. 

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14 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Merrett had headaches since being hit on the head with a mace, he was also a drunk.  He is a minor character who never did anything significant. 

It's true that Merrett was hit with a mace, but it was during a potentially significant conflict between the Kingswood Brotherhood and the detachment that Aerys sent to deal with them. I have posited whether or not the Kingswood Brotherhood was a fake cover name, and that their true identities were actually the people in the detachment. I am not alone in wondering if Wenda the White Fawn was actually Lyanna. It was also reported that Wenda branded Merrett's posterior with her trademark fawn, and he famously called her a "poxy bitch", which parallels the red spots that Myrcella drew on her handmaiden, Rosamund. Fawns also are spotted, and "spots" seem to be echoed with several female characters, including Cersei's freckled friend Melara, and Jon's girlfriend, Ygritte.

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