Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

I always pictured the broken sword just lying around until the wildling host moved south, and then someone picked it up for treasure. It has sapphires in the hilt, I think. I do think it's hints at Dawn, which I have come to believe is the broken sword in this story.

It has never occurred to me that Will might have survived his choking experience with Waymar's wight. It would be an interesting mirror to Brienne's ending in Feast if Will also managed to say a word that saved him from death!

An interesting thing about Waymar's wight is that it was missing his left eye, which is reported to having a white pupil. Does anyone know which eye Bloodraven has lost?

Finding a broken sword in the forest that size would be a big coincidence, so there is a chance that GRRM is using this as a hint that someone survived (Will) or was nearby setting up the trap; maybe wildlings as suggested by @Feather Crystal

I don't think we know which eye is BR missing.

[Brad Stark]

We don't know it is the same sword or not.  Assuming it is, and it broke fighting an Other, the holder would have dropped it, either when they were killed or fled.  If it was picked up, it was either by coincidence or because someone else was at the scene.  If someone was at the scene, they'd either be attacked by the Other or they are working with the Other.  

Where I have trouble with this theory, is if someone were working with the Others or survived their attack, that person would be very powerful, probably at least equal to anyone we've seen in the story.  Why would someone like that bother carrying around a useless shard of metal for a few sapphires? 

I do bet it is the same sword and there's more to it than someone finding it by coincidence, but I don't think it is the wildling who turned it in.  I bet Benjen or Craster are somehow involved. 

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know it is the same sword or not.  Assuming it is, and it broke fighting an Other, the holder would have dropped it, either when they were killed or fled.  If it was picked up, it was either by coincidence or because someone else was at the scene.  If someone was at the scene, they'd either be attacked by the Other or they are working with the Other.  

Where I have trouble with this theory, is if someone were working with the Others or survived their attack, that person would be very powerful, probably at least equal to anyone we've seen in the story.  Why would someone like that bother carrying around a useless shard of metal for a few sapphires? 

I do bet it is the same sword and there's more to it than someone finding it by coincidence, but I don't think it is the wildling who turned it in.  I bet Benjen or Craster are somehow involved. 

I have the idea that the Others operate under a clandestine cell/blacks ops system. None of the normal human operators know the whole story and they are just carrying small(ish) tasks. Jojen, Meera, Coldhands, Gared, Val, Jon, Sam and Benjen probably all fit at this level. So a wildling operator keeping a small treasure after a black op is not out of the question.

[St Daga]

On 8/13/2018 at 1:12 PM, Feather Crystal said:

In the past I have suggested that the wildlings having Waymar's broken sword was evidence that the wildlings are the ones behind creating white walkers. The band of wildlings that Royce, Gared, and Will were tracking could have become the white walkers that were introduced in the Prologue that ended up attacking Royce and Willl. The sword is the proof.

 

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

I always pictured the broken sword just lying around until the wildling host moved south, and then someone picked it up for treasure. It has sapphires in the hilt, I think. I do think it's hints at Dawn, which I have come to believe is the broken sword in this story.

 

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

Finding a broken sword in the forest that size would be a big coincidence, so there is a chance that GRRM is using this as a hint that someone survived (Will) or was nearby setting up the trap; maybe wildlings as suggested by @Feather Crystal

 

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know it is the same sword or not.  Assuming it is, and it broke fighting an Other, the holder would have dropped it, either when they were killed or fled.  If it was picked up, it was either by coincidence or because someone else was at the scene.  If someone was at the scene, they'd either be attacked by the Other or they are working with the Other.  

Where I have trouble with this theory, is if someone were working with the Others or survived their attack, that person would be very powerful, probably at least equal to anyone we've seen in the story.  Why would someone like that bother carrying around a useless shard of metal for a few sapphires? 

I do bet it is the same sword and there's more to it than someone finding it by coincidence, but I don't think it is the wildling who turned it in.  I bet Benjen or Craster are somehow involved. 

I am unfamiliar with the theory that you are discussing about Waymar's sword hilt, but if anyone could point my in the correct discussion to look, I would be grateful. I did a quick search but didn't find anything. 

Several years ago when I noticed the 3 Sapphire sword hilt that the wildlings turn into Jon, I noted it because Jon notes it. (I also noted the ivory phallus that Jon notes and I wiggled my eyebrows at GRRM-such items could be used in religious ceremonies). I have had a feeling, (which is perhaps very wrong) that we have a broken sword that needs to be reforged in this story. Until about a year ago, I thought that sword was Ice, which was figuratively "broken" by Tywin, but I have come to have some idea that Dawn is the broken sword in this story. Which ever sword it is, it would perhaps need a new hilt, and I have thought this 3-sapphire hilt will be part of that reforged sword. Three seems to be an important idea in this story, and sapphires certainly hint at the eyes of the Other's, the wights, Brienne, etc.

We don't have much detail on the hilt, but we do have a few descriptors:

Quote

 

Royce slid gracefully from his saddle. He tied the destrier securely to a low-hanging limb, well away from the other horses, and drew his longsword from its sheath. Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel. It was a splendid weapon, castle-forged, and new-made from the look of it. AGOT-Prologue

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. AGOT-Prologue

He found what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning. Will knelt, looked around warily, and snatched it up. The broken sword would be his proof.  AGOT-Prologue

Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt. ADWD-Jon XII

 

It might not be the same sword hilt, but it sure is odd that GRRM brings our attention to it, via Jon. What ever sword I think will be reforged, I think Jon will wield it but that's probably more my hope than anything else. I think this hilt is important and the imagery of it being splintered and twisted as if struck my lightening brings to mind the Broken Tower at Winterfell, and some storm god imagery. Brienne and her sapphire imagery would also be a good person to wield a reforged Dawn with star sapphires in the hilt.

We are given no idea that the hilt might have had runes on it, but runes are something that is associated multiple times in the text to the Royce's and they are a family of first men. Waymar has a look about him that makes his perhaps similar to Jon in appearance, at least in body type and coloring. Maybe not in facial features. 

Jon and Brienne are my two best candidates to cross paths with this sword hilt again.

But, if the Other's were looking at Waymar's sword, and it seems they do study it (or him), how does it end up in the hands of the wildling's?

 

[St Daga]

On 8/13/2018 at 5:39 PM, JNR said:

Well, Summer's howling as Bran starts his fateful climb has seen a fair amount of discussion in Heresy.

It's always been hard to explain, because

1) Bran is a frequent climber; Summer must have seen him do it before.  Why is Summer flipping out this time?

2) Summer can't possibly sense the Lannisters harbor any evil plans re Bran, because the Lannisters don't even know Bran is there yet.  Their emotions at the time Summer begins howling were, it's fair to say, a little different from that.

3) Summer almost certainly can't use reason to project what will happen at the future point if and when Bran sees the Lannisters bumping uglies.

So it's almost as if Summer has some sort of supernatural awareness of the future, such as many other characters in the story exhibit at other times.

I can't explain why, but the wolves do seem to have a reaction when Lannister's are near or involved. Summer before Bran's fall, Ghost with Tyrion when Jon first meets him is rather odd, uncertain and wary are the words Jon uses to describe him. Summer, Grey Wind and Shaggy when Tyrion returns to Winterfell, Nymeria with Joffrey, Grey Wind is quite ferocious in battle and is rumored to have eaten Stafford Lannister's heart, then we have Grey Wind just prior to the Red Wedding, which is a Lannister plot put into action by the Frey's it seems. There is something about those direwolves and the Lannister lion's that involves some unforeseen friction. Lady is the only wolf who has no incident with the Lannister's (except her killing ordered by Cersei) but Sansa was also blind to the shine of the Lannister golden family. Cersei also has some concept that the wolves are a problem for her family and perhaps that goes back to the howling of the direwolves?

Perhaps it's a premonition that the wolves have, perhaps it's because the wolves know about the wheel that keeps turning, (if indeed their is a Wheel of Time happening here, which certainly seems like the case), or perhaps there is some knowledge that we haven't been given yet that will tie it all together.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I am unfamiliar with the theory that you are discussing about Waymar's sword hilt, but if anyone could point my in the correct discussion to look, I would be grateful. I did a quick search but didn't find anything.

Not specifically about Waymar's sword, but there was a discussion on Heresy 209 (around page 10 or 11) about the wildlings being related to the Others. There was also a separate thread about this a few months back:

 

[St Daga]

Still looking into cairns, barrows, cists, etc and found another place in Devon on Exmoor that is known as Five Barrows. It is a bronze age barrow development in the moorlands. It is called Five Barrow's because there are five barrows easily noted when looking up at a ridge, but despite the name, for hundreds of years the site has been noted to have a total of eight barrows, with three less notable from a certain angle, I guess. This area was investigated in 1905 and at that time a researcher reported a 9th barrow, that had previously not been noted and now there is the possibility of noting a total of 10 barrows from airplane photographs.

Although barrow's and cairns are not the same thing, it was the initial  numbers of 8 barrows, with 5 very visible and 3 less so that caught my attention. From looking at the photo's of this site, it is more moorland than mountainous. Just thought this could be another site that might have inspired GRRM in his writings.

Info on Five Barrow's is here.

[St Daga]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I am unfamiliar with the theory that you are discussing about Waymar's sword hilt, but if anyone could point my in the correct discussion to look, I would be grateful. I did a quick search but didn't find anything.

Not specifically about Waymar's sword, but there was a discussion on Heresy 209 (around page 10 or 11) about the wildlings being related to the Others. There was also a separate thread about this a few months back:

 

Thanks. I appreciate the help and will look these over.

[Black Crow]

Time to move over to Heresy 212