Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[Black Crow]

 

Welcome to Heresy 211, the latest version of the long-running and sometimes rather quirky thread where we take an in-depth look at the story and in particular what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones, but the Song of Ice and Fire and the true nature of apparent threat which lies in the North, hidden in the Haunted Forest and those magical Otherlands which lie beyond the Wall.

 

The thread is called Heresy because with The Wall, the Watch and a Heresy, back in 2011, we miserable heretics were the first to challenge the orthodoxy that the Wall is the last best hope of mankind; to question whether the three-fingered tree-huggers really are the kindly elves Bran once thought them to be and above all question also the popular assumption that Jon Snow is some bloke prophesied way out east and known there as Azor Ahai, who is going to ride out of the sunrise on a dragon, save the world by immolating the Icy lot and then ascend the Iron Throne to reign over dust and ashes. Instead we’re increasingly wondering whether the Starks theselves might have a rather dark [but forgotten] secret in their past, which some of us are beginning to suspect may be tall and gaunt, with characteristic long Stark faces and are very very cold. Winter after all is coming and it aint going to be pretty when it does.

 

We don’t all of us agree on this, or anything else for that matter, but as a free-ranging discussion group within Westeros we can safely claim to have been around for a while now and discussed an awful lot of stuff over the years since the thread cycle started in late 2011. Some of the ideas have been overtaken by events and some seemingly confirmed by GRRM’s increasingly sparse SSMs and by the earlier stages of the mummers’ version before it firmly moved into weird fan-fiction.

 

However GRRM has also told us that when it comes to writing he is very much a gardener and this thread cycle follows that style, preferring the discussion to be free-ranging and organic in nature rather than fixed in tram lines.

 

So dig in, enjoy yourself and if it comes to a fight just remember the local house rules; stick to the written text, have respect for the ideas of others and above all conduct the debate with great good humour.

 

[Frey family reunion]

This is a continuation of  Tucu’s observation of the Pawnee Morning Star ritual and a completion of all three kingsguards as symbols of human sacrifice.  I looked it up and yea it fits really well:

Quote

The young woman represented Evening Star and with her death, her soul went to her husband Morning Star who then clothed her with the colors of the dawn. The reunion of Morning Star and Evening Star meant the renewal of growing things on earth. The Morning Star Ceremony was a fertility rite, and from the Pawnee perspective, the young woman was not a victim, but a messenger.

So Evening Star transforming to Morning Star.  I think if we’re looking at one of the possible sacrifices at the tower we need to look at the daughter of the Evenstar, Brienne of Tarth.  She’s the right age and she is the character most heavily associated with Jaime Lannister our knight who was knighted by Ser Arthur, the Sword of the Morning, with his blade Dawn.

[Melifeather]

Dragging this over from 210:

37 minutes ago,  PrettyPig said: 

Won’t disagree with this, either – in fact, I am thinking of that weird place in the Red Keep that has the Targaryen sigil in mosaic on the floor, plus the areas of the Black Cells that Tyrion isn’t allowed to see, with the braziers and all that.    Aerys (and maybe some long before Aerys) was up to no good down in the dark places.

Is it possible that these places are in the lower levels of Maegor's holdfast? That's where all the secrets are - the completion of which marked the laborers for death.

I think when Ned goes to see Robert in his bloody bed inside the royal apartments in Maegor's Holdfast - it's a replay of when Ned arrived during the Sack. There were three Kingsguard guarding Robert. Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge. Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Is it possible that while Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Armory Lorch were scaling the tower, that Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were in the same positions as Blount, Greenfield, and Selmy guarding Elia in the royal apartments?

To continue:

Is it possible that Ned and his men cut through the three Kingsguard to get at Maegor's Holdfast before Gregor and Amory could kill Elia and her children? The "tower long fallen" could have been another tower inside the Red Keep that had already fallen down. I think we're supposed to consider the Tower of the Hand as a clue. 

When Tywin is murdered, the Tower of the Hand is reduced to a shell by Jaime and his men looking for Tyrion. Cersei later commands the tower be burned down, because she cannot stand to look at it, and has her pyromancers place 50 pots of wildfire inside the tower to burn it down. Are Cersei's feelings about the Tower of the Hand - the not being able to look at it - a reflection about how Ned feels about Maegor's Holdfast, aka the tower of joy?

Edited to add: Tyrion is Lyanna's parallel. Catelyn's abduction of Tyrion is the parallel to Lyanna's abduction. So, Jaime reducing the Tower of the Hand to a shell looking for Tyrion would be the parallel to Ned tearing down a tower looking for Lyanna.

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is a continuation of  Tucu’s observation of the Pawnee Morning Star ritual and a completion of all three kingsguards as symbols of human sacrifice.  I looked it up and yea it fits really well:

So Evening Star transforming to Morning Star.  I think if we’re looking at one of the possible sacrifices at the tower we need to look at the daughter of the Evenstar, Brienne of Tarth.  She’s the right age and she is the character most heavily associated with Jaime Lannister our knight who was knighted by Ser Arthur, the Sword of the Morning, with his blade Dawn.

Good point about Brienne being a candidate. I was trying to guess how to fit the Morning Star and the Evening Star into the books. Brienne was born close to 280 so she would have been around 3 by the end of the war.

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Edited to add: Tyrion is Lyanna's parallel. Catelyn's abduction of Tyrion is the parallel to Lyanna's abduction. So, Jaime reducing the Tower of the Hand to a shell looking for Tyrion would be the parallel to Ned tearing down a tower looking for Lyanna.

I still believe that tearing down a tower and building eight cairns with the bloody stones is a metaphor.

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is a continuation of  Tucu’s observation of the Pawnee Morning Star ritual and a completion of all three kingsguards as symbols of human sacrifice.  I looked it up and yea it fits really well:

So Evening Star transforming to Morning Star.  I think if we’re looking at one of the possible sacrifices at the tower we need to look at the daughter of the Evenstar, Brienne of Tarth.  She’s the right age and she is the character most heavily associated with Jaime Lannister our knight who was knighted by Ser Arthur, the Sword of the Morning, with his blade Dawn.

And Brienne is tooling around Westeros with a shield that used to bear the black bat of Lothston but now sports a replica of Tanselle-Too-Tall’s pretty picture that she made for Dunk, the LC of Aegon V’s Kingsguard, who may have tried to intervene in a less than scrupulous Targaryen fire ritual.   

Oh, and she has now met up with a vengeful revenant that was resurrected with a kiss of fire.   

[Frey family reunion]

32 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

And Brienne is tooling around Westeros with a shield that used to bear the black bat of Lothston but now sports a replica of Tanselle-Too-Tall’s pretty picture that she made for Dunk, the LC of Aegon V’s Kingsguard, who may have tried to intervene in a less than scrupulous Targaryen fire ritual.   

Oh, and she has now met up with a vengeful revenant that was resurrected with a kiss of fire.   

Yea the black bat transformed into a falling star....

and her life was saved by Gendry who crafted the bull helmet.

[Melifeather]

Perhaps the miscarried children of Aerys and Rhaella were not actual miscarriages, but rather sacrifices? They had an heir and a spare, so the rest could have been burned in attempts to hatch dragons.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I still believe that tearing down a tower and building eight cairns with the bloody stones is a metaphor.

If Ned and his men tore through Hightower, Whent, and Dayne at Maegor's Holdfast to get inside the tower only to find a raped and dead Elia, a raped and dead Rhaenys, and an infant with a crushed skull - think of how frantically Ned would have searched the tower for Lyanna! 

Is it any wonder then that the memories were so bitter that Ned condensed the things he could not bear to look at into a metaphor? He figuratively tore that tower down in his search! And he lost some good men in the attack, which explains how he "built" eight cairns with the bloody stones. Eight people died, and who's to say that Ned isn't including Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon in the count? I think there's some wiggle room for some of his men to die in other places, such as the Battle of the Bells, the Trident, and at Rhaegar's resurrection attempt and cremation. He remembers he and Howland riding away - riding away from Kings Landing after his fight with Robert. 

Did he find Lyanna in Maegor's Holdfast? Right now I'm leaning towards "no", because when Jaime searched the Tower of the Hand for Tyrion, he was already long gone, however recall that Tyrion was smuggled in a wine barrel on a ship. I think this might be a parallel to how Lyanna's corpse may have been transferred home - pickled or salted in a barrel - which if you think about it seems to refer to Craster's kippers - the red herring - which is an old Heresy discussion regarding Craster's sons and whether or not they were sacrificed to the Others by leaving them out in the freezing cold, which leads us back to our new suspicions that Aerys was sacrificing children too under Maegor's Holdfast, burning them alive with fire.

 

[Lady Rhodes]

My only issue with Ned and company killing Hightower, Whent, and Dayne in an attempt to save Elia is the need to kill them. “Gregor and Armory are climbing the holdfast as we speak!” Should have sufficed for at least one of the KG to go and investigate. 

[Melifeather]

55 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

My only issue with Ned and company killing Hightower, Whent, and Dayne in an attempt to save Elia is the need to kill them. “Gregor and Armory are climbing the holdfast as we speak!” Should have sufficed for at least one of the KG to go and investigate. 

 Who was left to say it? Lewyn Martell died at the Trident. Jonothor Darry died at the Trident. Barristan Selmy was injured at the Trident. Jaime was guarding the king, but had slain Aerys by the time Clegane and Lorch were scaling the tower. Ned, meanwhile was leading his northmen through the King's Gate. Is it possible that other than Jaime, Ned was the only other one that saw Gregor and Amory climbing?
 

Quote

 

“The castle is ours, ser, and the city,” Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King’s Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin’s son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard.

  “Tell them the Mad King is dead,” he commanded. “Spare all those who yield and hold them captive.” “Shall I proclaim a new king as well?” Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar’s infant son Aegon, still in Maegor’s with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. “Proclaim who you bloody well like,” he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark.

  You had no right to judge me either, Stark.

  In his dreams the dead came burning, gowned in swirling green flames. Jaime danced around them with a golden sword, but for every one he struck down two more arose to take his place.

 

 

 

Why would Jaime think that Ned had no right to judge him for slaying Aerys and then sit on the throne? What did Ned do? Like you've suggested, the city had already fallen, so why not demand that Hightower, Whent, and Dayne surrender? Maybe he did, but the Kingsguard chose to stand their ground and follow Aerys's orders. Ned was forced to fight his way through in haste. Maybe he thought Lyanna was in the tower only to find Elia and her children were the ones there and that they were all dead.

Jaime's thoughts after giving this account immediately turn to his dream of the dead burning, gowned in swirling green flames. How symbolic is this dream? I understand how Jaime's dancing around the burning dead with his golden sword could be explained symbolically as representing his mind set before and after killing Aerys. He was dressed in his golden armor when he slew the king, willingly sacrificing his position and reputation as a white knight of the Kingsguard in order to save lives. Aerys burned people and Jaime witnessed it so many times that he was willing to forgo his promise to protect the king, and he didn't have any reservations left about killing him.

[Brad Stark]

It is odd, not only that Ned made eight cairns instead of returning the bodies, but especially odd he treated his closest friends and his foes the same way.  Has anyone ever heard of a battle were the winner buried people on their own side together with the enemy?  

It is almost like Ned sees the battle as a mistake  or accident that got eight people killed, instead of a fight with a side that won. 

[Lady Rhodes]

What I mean is why didn’t Ned tell the KG guarding Elia what was happening, ie Gregor and Armory climbing the holdfast. Either it was happening as Ned found himself faced with the KG and as you say, he fought through them to get into the room because plausibly Lyanna could have been there. Or the KG stood as Elia, Aegon , and Rhaenys were murdered. I am going to assume they could hear what was going on inside the room they were guarding! Perhaps I am misunderstanding your thinking. 

[Lady Rhodes]

7 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

It is odd, not only that Ned made eight cairns instead of returning the bodies, but especially odd he treated his closest friends and his foes the same way.  Has anyone ever heard of a battle were the winner buried people on their own side together with the enemy?  

It is almost like Ned sees the battle as a mistake  or accident that got eight people killed, instead of a fight with a side that won. 

This is why I have an issue believing the child sacrifice theory.  I don’t think Ned would hold them in high esteem (burying them next to his fallen comrades, returning an ancestral sword) if they were complicit in something heinous. 

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This is why I have an issue believing the child sacrifice theory.  I don’t think Ned would hold them in high esteem (burying them next to his fallen comrades, returning an ancestral sword) if they were complicit in something heinous. 

I started to post my full theory, but it's probably another couple days in the making.  You're point is valid, but I think what Eddard finds is that he's dealing with a group of people who legitimately believe that what they are doing is necessary to prevent the Long Night and to save mankind.  It's the same reason that a decent man like Davos, doesn't abandon Stannis, even though he has to smuggle Edric Storm out of Dragonstone to keep Stannis from letting Melisandre burn him to death. And the moral quandry over doing something this monstrous for the greater good is discussed fully:

Quote

“You are making me angry, Davos. I will hear no more of this bastard boy.”

“His name is Edric Storm, sire.”

“I know his name. Was there ever a name so apt? It proclaims his bastardy, his high birth, and the turmoil he brings with him. Edric Storm. There, I have said it. Are you satisfied, my lord Hand?”

“Edric—” he started.

“—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies … a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone … she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must … we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!” Stannis gave a derisive snort. “It glimmers prettily, I’ll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?”

“Your Grace,” said Davos, “the cost …”

“I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning … burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?” The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King’s Landing. “If Joffrey should die … what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?”

“Everything,” said Davos, softly.

Stannis looked at him, jaw clenched. “Go,” the king said at last, “before you talk yourself back into the dungeon.”

And perhaps, the Kingsguard swore a vow to see it through, but it's not a task they really wish to fulfill.  But for the Kingsguard it's an impossible situation, do something monstrous or disobey their sworn vow, and perhaps be responsible for the failure to end the Long Night.  The only way honorable way out is through death.

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

What I mean is why didn’t Ned tell the KG guarding Elia what was happening, ie Gregor and Armory climbing the holdfast. Either it was happening as Ned found himself faced with the KG and as you say, he fought through them to get into the room because plausibly Lyanna could have been there. Or the KG stood as Elia, Aegon , and Rhaenys were murdered. I am going to assume they could hear what was going on inside the room they were guarding! Perhaps I am misunderstanding your thinking. 

The Kingsguard would have been separated with one at the bottom of the stairs, one at the drawbridge, and the other at the door to the royal apartments just as Robert’s Kingsguard were when he was laying in his bed of blood. The question is who was at the bottom of the stairs? Because this is where the struggle began.

29 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This is why I have an issue believing the child sacrifice theory.  I don’t think Ned would hold them in high esteem (burying them next to his fallen comrades, returning an ancestral sword) if they were complicit in something heinous. 

Help me out and find the passage where it’s said Ned returned the sword.

[Brad Stark]

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And perhaps, the Kingsguard swore a vow to see it through, but it's not a task they really wish to fulfill.  But for the Kingsguard it's an impossible situation, do something monstrous or disobey their sworn vow, and perhaps be responsible for the failure to end the Long Night.  The only way honorable way out is through death.

This fits the tone of the memories and characters of the Kingsguard. They were given orders they knew were wrong and were happy to be killed by Ned but still felt they couldn't surrender. 

[Melifeather]

The cairns were never real. Ned didn’t bury his men or any of the dead, because he left Kings Landing in a fury.

After the confrontation with Jaime, Ned watched Robert’s face with disbelief while the bloody wrapped bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon were laid at his feet, and saw visible relief that they were dead. They got into an argument, and Ned rode off. In his anger he neglected to oversee the return of his dead men.

[Brad Stark]

Then what happened to Lord William Dustin? 

[Melifeather]

Found the passage about the sword:

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea.