Night's Watch vows and the truth of history.

[kleevedge]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

There is an SSM in which the George says this is not so (please don't ask for a link, I've lost it, and my internet is running so slow, he'll finish Winds before I can find it again ... )

I'm thinking when the children performed the hammer of the waters it broke a small strip of land connecting them, and that's why GRRM say's they dont connect (just taking your word for this I never seen the SSM). If he said they do connect it would be a huge spoiler, and GRRM has been known to answer things cryptically. The reason I think the land of always winter is connected to Essos is Mance Rayder's cloak. He has the red silk from Asshai in it which a wood's witch found in a wreckage. The fact that Mance was stationed at the Shadow tower at the time means he was most likely ranging on the far Western shores beyond the wall, far away from where any galleys should be. Eastwatch is the trading port for the Night's Watch, so I find it peculiar there's a shipwreck in the far west. There is also Quaithe's message, "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east." Now I know It's not the most solid evidence, a storm could of blown a ship off course from bear islands, but it makes you think.

[Lost Melnibonean]

50 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

My apologies @Obscured by Klowds as I seemed to have missed this post of yours. Thanks for stopping by.

I am bookmarking this post for the short time and will circle back this after a few more things to take care of here.

In the meantime, if @Lost Melnibonean is around, if I remember correctly, he had some great ideas about the 79 sentinels at one point, or two.

It was a series of posts in the Wow, I never noticed that threads...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137975-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v-14/&do=findComment&comment=7717232

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137975-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v-14/&do=findComment&comment=7717418

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137975-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v-14/&do=findComment&comment=7717673

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137975-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v-14/&do=findComment&comment=7717703

And then this thread...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150780-soldier-pines-and-sentinels/

[Rufus Snow]

4 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

I'm thinking when the children performed the hammer of the waters it broke a small strip of land connecting them, and that's why GRRM say's they dont connect (just taking your word for this I never seen the SSM). If he said they do connect it would be a huge spoiler, and GRRM has been known to answer things cryptically. The reason I think the land of always winter is connected to Essos is Mance Rayder's cloak. He has the red silk from Asshai in it which a wood's witch found in a wreckage. The fact that Mance was stationed at the Shadow tower at the time means he was most likely ranging on the far Western shores beyond the wall, far away from where any galleys should be. Eastwatch is the trading port for the Night's Watch, so I find it peculiar there's a shipwreck in the far west. There is also Quaithe's message, "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east." Now I know It's not the most solid evidence, a storm could of blown a ship off course from bear islands, but it makes you think.

I see your thinking, but it doesn't hold up, alas. There has been trade from one end of the world to the other for centuries. It is not at all beyond the realms of possibility for goods from Asshai to work their way ever westwards and northwards.

Even within living memory we know that Euron - a person - has been all the way to Asshai and back again. It is no stretch to imagine that a particular trade good has made it from Asshai to the Frozen Shore without having to invoke a land route which the author has gone out of his way to say does not exist.

[kissdbyfire]

No time to elaborate now, but there are slavers too.

[kleevedge]

4 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I see your thinking, but it doesn't hold up, alas. There has been trade from one end of the world to the other for centuries. It is not at all beyond the realms of possibility for goods from Asshai to work their way ever westwards and northwards.

Even within living memory we know that Euron - a person - has been all the way to Asshai and back again. It is no stretch to imagine that a particular trade good has made it from Asshai to the Frozen Shore without having to invoke a land route which the author has gone out of his way to say does not exist.

yes, but if you travel the conventional way you would trade with Eastwatch, not the shadow tower. If you sailed around Dorne and did go to the western shores the furthest up you would trade would be bear isles, which is a poor island with no need for Asshai Silk. The part I find curious is the shipwreck supposedly on the frozen shore, because ships have no need to be there.

[Rufus Snow]

3 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

yes, but if you travel the conventional way you would trade with Eastwatch, not the shadow tower. If you sailed around Dorne and did go to the western shores the furthest up you would trade would be bear isles, which is a poor island with no need for Asshai Silk. The part I find curious is the shipwreck supposedly on the frozen shore, because ships have no need to be there.

Ships are always ending up in places they 'have no need to be', what with corsairs, storms, ironborn reavers, drunken masters, cheap maps they shouldn't have bought off chainless maesters in Oldtown.... and there's also the tendency of merchants to go further afield than the other guy to get a better price for their goods and so on.

What you say is true, to a point, but it in no way makes it necessary for a land route to exist. Normal wanderings are sufficient to explain what happened, especially in the face of a pronouncement from the God who created the world in question to the effect that 'I put no land there'!

[kleevedge]

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Ships are always ending up in places they 'have no need to be', what with corsairs, storms, ironborn reavers, drunken masters, cheap maps they shouldn't have bought off chainless maesters in Oldtown.... and there's also the tendency of merchants to go further afield than the other guy to get a better price for their goods and so on.

What you say is true, to a point, but it in no way makes it necessary for a land route to exist. Normal wanderings are sufficient to explain what happened, especially in the face of a pronouncement from the God who created the world in question to the effect that 'I put no land there'!

first you said that GRRM said "they're not connected." Now you're saying he said, "I put no land there." I haven't read what you are referring to but I think there's a big difference in those 2 statements. Also I specifically said it was possible for a ship to end up there, just not likely.

 

47 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

Now I know It's not the most solid evidence, a storm could of blown a ship off course from bear islands, but it makes you think.

I agree that it doesn't mean a land route has to exist there, but the fact that these areas are unmapped leaves it open to interpretation.

[The Fattest Leech]

How about we start gathering the Kingsguard vows. They are not outright listed anywhere, but Jaime lists some of them. If the NW vows are supposedly what inspired the KG vows, that should be useful, especially because Jaime emphasizes how contradictory they are. Does anyone remember the "horse" quote? (it's late here and I am tired and can't think of it )

Found it. This would be KG duty #1 in the list: Our first duty is to protect him

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Ser Meryn got a stubborn look on his face. "Are you telling us not to obey the king?"

"The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me."

"Aye. As you command, my lord."

 

[The Fattest Leech]

Here are some basic knights vows causally tossed out there by Jaime. Not Kingsguard vows, but it’s what we have. There are a few that are seemingly quite different than what we have for the Night's Watch vows.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"How can you still count yourself a knight, when you have forsaken every vow you ever swore?"

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other." He took a healthy swallow of wine and closed his eyes for an instant, leaning his head back against the patch of nitre on the wall. "I was the youngest man ever to wear the white cloak."

"And the youngest to betray all it stood for, Kingslayer."

Compared to the original vows with the new. ADDING***By the way, George has written much about existentialism before (many stories include major theme, including A Song for Lya, Dying of the Light, etc). The oldest part of the vows seem to play back to that idea of philosophical thinking plays a part in one's identity. You have got to know your name!

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

The woods fell silent. "You knelt as boys," Bowen Marsh intoned solemnly. "Rise now as men of the Night's Watch."

 

Which also sorta compares to this, and again, underlines the Andal specific relation to taking vows and being a "ser"...

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

None of the devout paid Jaime any mind. They made a circuit of the sept, worshiping at each of the seven altars to honor the seven aspects of the deity. To each god they made sacrifice, to each they sang a hymn. Sweet and solemn rose their voices. Jaime closed his eyes to listen, but opened them again when he began to sway. I am more weary than I knew.

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer.

But that was long ago, and the boy was dead.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It was a series of posts in the Wow, I never noticed that threads...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137975-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v-14/&do=findComment&comment=7717232

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137975-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v-14/&do=findComment&comment=7717418

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137975-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v-14/&do=findComment&comment=7717673

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137975-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v-14/&do=findComment&comment=7717703

And then this thread...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150780-soldier-pines-and-sentinels/

That is crazy good you were able to pull of this together. Thank you

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

There is an SSM in which the George says this is not so (please don't ask for a link, I've lost it

You probably mean this one.

Quote

George_RR_Martin: Westeros is not the only place affected, but it's affected most strongly, because it's the only landmass that extends that far north. The other continent is bounded to the north by an icy polar sea.

It stands to reason, therefore, that Essos and Westeros are not connected via the far north.

[The Fattest Leech]

Ok, last one for the evening before I fall over.

Oh, Bowen! Always trying to make everything opposite day at the wall

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

"If the gods are good, we won't encounter any wildlings. I'll want the grey gelding."

Word spread fast at Castle Black. Edd was still saddling the grey when Bowen Marsh stomped across the yard to confront Jon at the stables. "My lord, I wish you would reconsider. The new men can take their vows in the sept as easily."

"The sept is home to the new gods. The old gods live in the wood, and those who honor them say their words amongst the weirwoods. You know that as well as I."

"Satin comes from Oldtown, and Arron and Emrick from the westerlands. The old gods are not their gods."

"I do not tell men which god to worship. They were free to choose the Seven or the red woman's Lord of Light. They chose the trees instead, with all the peril that entails."

[kleevedge]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

You probably mean this one.

It stands to reason, therefore, that Essos and Westeros are not connected via the far north.

I can still take an "icy polar sea" as being a traversable land mass that the others could use, Similar to that of the earths north pole.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 The Wall is big because the author wanted it big.  He made no overture to any other reason. 

That, however, doesn't preclude retroactive reasoning for the Wall's existence :-)

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Help me out with why 79 is a significant number?    

It's cooler than 42 and the question to it is not figured out so easily.

[Obscured by Klowds]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Welcome! And great username!

The way I see it, it's the opposite... the parts that [maybe] were added to the NW vows were meant to make the NW more Andal-friendly, in a way. Remember, many of the early Andals were religious zealots, w/ 7-pointed stars carved into their flesh. Up until when they started to join/send men to the NW, the organisation was, basically, 100% FM. In other words, when the fancy shiny religious knights started to join the NW, they must have thought their northerner brothers were a bunch of tree-worshipping savages.

I think the idea that in the early days the families of brothers were living alongside the Wall in small settlements a very valid one. 

Hey, Kissedbyfire, that does paint a different picture of cultures colliding.  You're looking at it from the viewpoint of the outsiders, the knights.  I suppose that might be the key to narrowing down when the vows may have been ammended.  Andal armies apparently didn't make it past the neck for many centuries despite their fancy armour and whatnot.  Yet while the Hundred Kingdoms widdled down to Seven the shieldhall was filled with the heraldry of houses from throughout the realm.   Meaning that FM from all across the seven plus kingdoms were taking the black prior to Targaryen rule.  In the first book, Aemon spoke of Lord Commander Hoare, who was ruling during the conquest, "They came from a  hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night's Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded. They kept their pledge. When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren's brother was Lord Commander on the Wall, with ten thousand swords to hand. He did not march."  Therefore, the vow would have contained the pledge to win no glory and remain at their post in life & death prior to Andals reaching Westeros.  Unless you interpret the blue bit as Commander Hoare's response at the time of the invasion. Either way the pledge to take no part in the wars of the kingdom was in place or he put it in place. I would push this line of reasoning a bit more because it improves the likelihood that the celibacy bits were pre-Andal too.  

Furthermore, nearest pizza delivery for me is 163 mi by plane only.  Suck. It. Up.

Moving on. The settlement concept seems perfectly reasonable, exceeeeept that Aemon attributes the celibacy bit to the guys that formed the NW. 

Again, from the first book, "The men who formed the Night's Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve. So they vowed they would have no wives nor children."  I interpret that as referring to the orginal founders of the watch, and Aemon seems to be a reliable source.  Do you suspect Aemon's source (probably dusty scrolls) was fake news?

I wonder what Robin Hill, Tristan Mudd, and Marq Rankenfell were doing when they nearly destroyed the Watch and 'forgot their vows in favor of their pride and ambition'.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, kleevedge said:

I'm thinking when the children performed the hammer of the waters it broke a small strip of land connecting them, and that's why GRRM say's they dont connect (just taking your word for this I never seen the SSM). If he said they do connect it would be a huge spoiler, and GRRM has been known to answer things cryptically. The reason I think the land of always winter is connected to Essos is Mance Rayder's cloak. He has the red silk from Asshai in it which a wood's witch found in a wreckage. The fact that Mance was stationed at the Shadow tower at the time means he was most likely ranging on the far Western shores beyond the wall, far away from where any galleys should be. Eastwatch is the trading port for the Night's Watch, so I find it peculiar there's a shipwreck in the far west. There is also Quaithe's message, "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east." Now I know It's not the most solid evidence, a storm could of blown a ship off course from bear islands, but it makes you think.

Ships go where they will. Lannisport is on the western shore, the Iron Islands and Bear Island, too. People go there. And storms can drive ships off course and cause them to sink. 

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Here is another from Jaime. There are a few that are seemingly quite different than what we have for the Night's Watch vows.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"How can you still count yourself a knight, when you have forsaken every vow you ever swore?"

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other." He took a healthy swallow of wine and closed his eyes for an instant, leaning his head back against the patch of nitre on the wall. "I was the youngest man ever to wear the white cloak."

"And the youngest to betray all it stood for, Kingslayer."

Compared to the original vows with the new. ADDING***By the way, George has written much about existentialism before (many stories include major theme, including A Song for Lya, Dying of the Light, etc). The oldest part of the vows seem to play back to that idea of philosophical thinking plays a part in one's identity. You have got to know your name!

Those vows refer to Jaime's vows as a knight, not his vows as a Kingsguard. There would be nothing about the innocent, the weak, the gods, or the laws in the KG vows.

Jaime tries to wiggle himself out of his responsibility and tries to justify his oathbreaking by playing the knightly vows against the KG vows. But that doesn't really work. The KG is an elite order of knights Jaime joined voluntarily. He chose to protect a king who had already earned the moniker 'the Mad King' and was known to like to burn people alive. Nobody forced him to do this.

Nor does anybody in this world say that KG are free to play vow against vow. Just as the men of the Watch cannot play any knightly vows, marriage vows, or KG vows they may have sworn in the past against their NW vows. The NW vows are the most recent sworn, and the ones that supersede all others, just as the KG vows supersede any knightly, marriage, or other vows a KG may have sworn in the past.

If this wasn't the case then no KG would be obliged to protect or obey the king because the gods, the laws, the well-being of the innocent and weak can be construed to be always at odds with the protection of the king. The very existence of the institution of kingship could be seen as being at odds with the well-being of the innocent and weak. 

Same for the NW. If the vows there weren't superseding other vows then men should be free to fuck and whore around, leave their posts, take wives, father children, hold lands, etc.

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

How about we start gathering the Kingsguard vows. They are not outright listed anywhere, but Jaime lists some of them. If the NW vows are supposedly what inspired the KG vows, that should be useful, especially because Jaime emphasizes how contradictory they are. Does anyone remember the "horse" quote? (it's late here and I am tired and can't think of it )

Found it. This would be KG duty #1 in the list: Our first duty is to protect him

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Ser Meryn got a stubborn look on his face. "Are you telling us not to obey the king?"

"The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me."

"Aye. As you command, my lord."

This is Jaime actually undermining his own son, King Tommen, as well as the institution of the KG. The KG do not swear to protect the king from himself. That isn't their job. It might be the job of the king's regents and council but not of the KG. They certainly should dissuade the king from putting his person at risk (like doing something dangerous, etc.) but telling the KG to second-guess and double-check the king's orders in this world undermines the royal authority.

There is a reason why Cat decided not to give Robb a beating and send him home like the boy he was - because that would undermine his authority in front of his lords and make him look weak. Jaime ensured that Tommen grows up to be seen as weak not only by his lords but also by his KG. If they develop a habit to second-guess the king during the eight remaining years of his minority then they won't just drop that when the boy turns sixteen and tries to finally rule in his own right.

[kissdbyfire]

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Is it this one?

5) Does Westeros connect to the eastern continent through the north?

No.

I hope that helps. Keep reading.

 

10 hours ago, kleevedge said:

first you said that GRRM said "they're not connected." Now you're saying he said, "I put no land there." I haven't read what you are referring to but I think there's a big difference in those 2 statements. Also I specifically said it was possible for a ship to end up there, just not likely.

 

I agree that it doesn't mean a land route has to exist there, but the fact that these areas are unmapped leaves it open to interpretation.

I posted the SSM and link n the previous page, reposting here above.

4 hours ago, Obscured by Klowds said:

Hey, Kissedbyfire, that does paint a different picture of cultures colliding.  You're looking at it from the viewpoint of the outsiders, the knights.  I suppose that might be the key to narrowing down when the vows may have been ammended.  Andal armies apparently didn't make it past the neck for many centuries despite their fancy armour and whatnot. 

The Andals never managed to get past the Neck.

TWoIaF, The Arrival of the Andals

“It was the North and the North alone that was able to keep the Andals at bay, thanks to the impenetrable swamps of the Neck and the ancient keep of Moat Cailin. The number of Andal armies that were destroyed in the Neck cannot be easily reckoned, and so the Kings of Winter preserved their independent rule for many centuries to come.”

.

Quote

Yet while the Hundred Kingdoms widdled down to Seven

But this is very recent, going back maybe a few hundred yrs before the Conquest. 

 

The arrival of the Andals and the Conquest are thousands of years apart. Whether the Andals arrived 6,000 yrs ago or 2,000 yrs ago, we don't know. But even if the latter, it's still a long time. 

Quote

Unless you interpret the blue bit as Commander Hoare's response at the time of the invasion. Either way the pledge to take no part in the wars of the kingdom was in place or he put it in place. I would push this line of reasoning a bit more because it improves the likelihood that the celibacy bits were pre-Andal too.  

Not sure what you mean by "Hoare's response at the time of the invasion"? 

I think it's possible the vows were amended because of something no one had thought of before, and then the need arose. Also, the vow doesn't exactly say they'll take no part in the wars of the 100/7 kingdoms... only that they "shall wear no crowns and win no glory". 

I don't know... my feeling is that the original vow may have been a lot more generic, or, in other words, a lot less specific - wives, lands, crowns. 

Quote

Furthermore, nearest pizza delivery for me is 163 mi by plane only.  Suck. It. Up.

You're even more in the middle of nowhere than I am! 

Quote

Moving on. The settlement concept seems perfectly reasonable, exceeeeept that Aemon attributes the celibacy bit to the guys that formed the NW. 

Again, from the first book, "The men who formed the Night's Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve. So they vowed they would have no wives nor children."  I interpret that as referring to the orginal founders of the watch, and Aemon seems to be a reliable source.  Do you suspect Aemon's source (probably dusty scrolls) was fake news?

I think Aemon fully believes what he says. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he is correct in his beliefs.

Are Aemon's beliefs based on things he has read in dusty scrolls? Maybe. Sam hasn't come across any of that yet, but it is possible. It's also possible Aemon is basing what he says in a combination of things other than written records. Like the histories/stories about LCs of the past almost destroying the Watch added to what the [current] vow says. 

Quote

I wonder what Robin Hill, Tristan Mudd, and Marq Rankenfell were doing when they nearly destroyed the Watch and 'forgot their vows in favor of their pride and ambition'.

It could be a number of things, and we don't even have a timeline for these events. 

I tend to think that the original vow was short and "sweet", to the point. Like the FM names. And as Benjen tells Jon, the Watch has had its fools and mad men etc. So, as certain LCs tried to step out of line, more was added to the vow to address these issues. 

If I think about the formation of the NW and its makeup right after the LN, I think it makes a lot more sense for the crows to have families and for there to be small settlements along the southern side of the Wall. Actually, we know building the Wall took centuries, and I find it extremely hard to believe that all those people involved in its construction were just nightswatchmen w/ no families or anything. 

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what you mean by "Hoare's response at the time of the invasion"? 

He/She would be referring to the fact that Hoare stood by and did nothing while Aegon made a pyre out of Harrenhal and Lord Commander Hoare's relatives (aside from the Volmark cousins).

Quote

I think it's possible the vows were amended because of something no one had thought of before, and then the need arose. Also, the vow doesn't exactly say they'll take no part in the wars of the 100/7 kingdoms... only that they "shall wear no crowns and win no glory". 

It says 'I will live and die at my post'. The posts of the NW are at the Wall, not in the Hundred or Seven Kingdoms. The neutrality thing is derived from that or included in that. You have to stay neutral if you are stuck at the Wall - which the members of the NW are.

Quote

I think Aemon fully believes what he says. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he is correct in his beliefs.

Are Aemon's beliefs based on things he has read in dusty scrolls? Maybe. Sam hasn't come across any of that yet, but it is possible. It's also possible Aemon is basing what he says in a combination of things other than written records. Like the histories/stories about LCs of the past almost destroying the Watch added to what the [current] vow says. 

Do we have any reason to believe Aemon is wrong on this? Are there clear hints that the vows of the NW changed overtime?

[The Fattest Leech]

 

Quote

Those vows refer to Jaime's vows as a knight, not his vows as a

You’re right. I should clarify that I was looking for any other vows. I will update that soon. 

Quote

 

There would be nothing about the innocent, the weak, the gods, or the laws in the KG vows.

Where is the list of KG vows in the books? That is what I am looking for.

 

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Where is the list of KG vows in the books? That is what I am looking for.

We are not told what exactly the KG vow says. Off the top of my head, this is the closer we get - and that's not close at all!

TWoIaF, Aegon I

“It was Visenya, not Aegon, who decided the nature of the Kingsguard. Seven champions for the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, who would all be knights. She modeled their vows upon those of the Night’s Watch, so that they would forfeit all things save their duty to the king. And when Aegon spoke of a grand tourney to choose the first Kingsguard, Visenya dissuaded him, saying he needed more than skill in arms to protect him; he also needed unwavering loyalty. The king entrusted Visenya with selecting the first members of the order, and history shows he was wise to do so: two died defending him, and all served to the end of their days with honor. The White Book recounts their names, as it has recorded the name and deeds of every knight who swore the vows: Ser Corlys Velaryon, the first Lord Commander; Ser Richard Roote; Ser Addison Hill, Bastard of Cornfield; Ser Gregor Goode and Ser Griffith Goode, brothers; Ser Humfrey the Mummer, a hedge knight; and Ser Robin Darklyn, called Darkrobin, the first of many Darklyns to wear the white cloak.”