Night's Watch vows and the truth of history.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, dmfn said:

Yeah, that's true. It's pretty well hidden. But once you saw it, it would make an impression. It's a talking door. You walk into its mouth. Craziest thing in the whole series.

I can't see it having much of a function with no Wall though. Just a strange back door that opens into a tunnel in the forest?

 

I agree. But when did the brick wall go up? Was there never a kingdom north of the wall? What kings graves was Mance rooting through? 

I have done a theory before called 1 king, 1 curse, 1 wall that talks about this. Before the wall, the northern most area may likely have been apart of the realm Garth the Green ruled. Garth the Green who may be in the great barrow, with a curse on his barrow cursing any who seek to rival or equal him.

How do you prevent some one from becoming High King of all the Kingdoms as Garth was? Cut off one of them and prevent them from building cities any more (Hardhome). 

So Aerys II was never king of all of Westeros, cause he never ruled beyond the Wall. 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

You're thinking of the Theban 'Sacred Band' - iirc composed of 300 pairs of lovers for exactly the reason you quoted. Widely regarded as one of ancient Greece's most feared units, capable of going toe-to-toe with the the Spartan homoioi and winnning. 'Don't ask, don't tell' - hah!

/derail

/nerding

Yeah, that :-) Didn't want to show off :-)

[dmfn]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I agree. But when did the brick wall go up? Was there never a kingdom north of the wall? What kings graves was Mance rooting through? 

I have done a theory before called 1 king, 1 curse, 1 wall that talks about this. Before the wall, the northern most area may likely have been apart of the realm Garth the Green ruled. Garth the Green who may be in the great barrow, with a curse on his barrow cursing any who seek to rival or equal him.

How do you prevent some one from becoming High King of all the Kingdoms as Garth was? Cut off one of them and prevent them from building cities any more (Hardhome). 

So Aerys II was never king of all of Westeros, cause he never ruled beyond the Wall. 

I'll have a look at that 

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, dmfn said:

I'll have a look at that 

It's my crack pot take on the old legends haha  

[Three-Fingered Pete]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but I just realized it and it makes the discussion of the importance of the Black Gate a very central theme. Has the parallel, but opposite directional natures, of Bran's and Sam's journeys ever been analyzed?

Both start their journeys by having their world upended and being placed in unfamiliar and uncomfortable circumstances, but also resulting of an awakening of unknown qualities that give them insight.

Sam journeys south to gain wisdom to use against the Others, resulting in him arriving at the Citadel, the oldest and most extensive collection of ancient lore south of the Wall.

Bran journeys north to gain wisdom about his dreams and newfound abilities, resulting in him arriving BR's cave and the COTF, the oldest and most extensive collection of ancient lore north of the Wall.

They crossed paths at the nexus of it all... the Black Gate. It's sort of like science and magic met up at the one place that could be the key to everything. Between the two of them they hold the realm in their hands... and who is listening?

 

On another note, has there been any indication that the Black Gate was the only way through the original barrier? Before the Wall was constructed enough to be a true obstacle and the castle gates were built they must have needed some way through and traveling all the way to one gate seems like a lot of effort. Wouldn't there have been a few of them or was ranging beyond the Wall not generally allowed in the early days?

[Seams]

Jon opened a shuttered window, took the flagon of beer off the outside ledge, and filled a horn. Hobb had given him a lemon, still cold from the Wall. Jon crushed it in his fist. The juice trickled through his fingers. Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day, and claimed that was why he still had his teeth.

(AGoT, Jon IX, Chapter 70)

Buried Treasure and its applications

As I've thought about the OP and the vows discussion, I keep coming back to Mole's Town and the Fist. I think they are symbolically linked and the lemons may be a hint. It's a little complicated and I’ve included what appears to be a wrong turn in the analysis here, in case someone can make more sense of it than I did. So prepare for some symbolism stuff (or, as always, feel free to skip all of my posts if you don't believe in wordplay and symbolism in ASOIAF).

I think the Night's Watch vows or Jon's destiny in joining the Night's Watch relate to this symbol of black teeth / blades that I recently worked out in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read. In a nutshell, teeth and honey are opposites in the symbolism of bitter and sweet. Lemon is associated with teeth and oral health.

We know that Jon will soon go beyond the Wall and find the cache of dragon glass - the maesters call it obsidian - at the Fist. The dark stone blades Jon finds there must be part of the larger black diamond motif that alludes to dragon teeth (if the analysis in that AKOTSK re-read link is correct). In the excerpt I cited at the top of this comment, we get a little foreshadowing, it seems, with the lemon crushed in Jon's fist in order to promote dental health for the Lord Commander: Jon will eventually find the obsidian blades ("teeth") at the fist, looking as if they had just been freshly buried there.

As Jon digs up the bundle, he thinks he might be digging a grave at first, then thinks it might be buried treasure. And buried treasure is a link back to Mole's Town, where the men of the Night's Watch use the euphemism "digging for treasure" to refer to visits to the underground brothel. Is the comparison just that having sex is like finding valuable treasure? Or is the "treasure" the babies that often result from having sex? Later, Jon gives obsidian to Mormont and Sam and others. After Sam slays the White Walker with his obsidian dagger (protecting the baby as well as Gilly and himself), Mormont says he wants more obsidian. Is the obsidian still a "treasure" at this point? Does it still share some quality with sex or with children?

Vows are subject to interpretation

Mormont also tells Jon, "If we beheaded every boy who rode to Mole's Town in the night, only ghosts would guard the Wall." I think this quote is the money quote for understanding something important about the Night's Watch vows: Mormont doesn't consider it necessary to live by the vows. At least, not at all times. Mormont expects his "boys" to break their vows. (He even allowed Jon to attempt desertion, knowing that he would be brought back, one way or another.) I think the author is telling us that trips to Mole's Town are expected and condoned by the NW leadership. In fact, riding to Mole's Town in the night might result in a useful "buried treasure" discovery that will help the Night's Watch.

We will also see Qhorin demand that Jon reiterate his Night’s Watch vow just before leading Jon into a situation where he must kill Qhorin. It seems contrary to the vow, but Jon is actually staying true to his vow when he appears to be turning cloak and killing a Night’s Watch brother.

So does Mormont expect the young men of the Night's Watch to father sons? Is that what the "buried treasure" represents? If so, is it a bit of a Craster situation? Does Mormont need those babies to grow up, join the Night's Watch and fight the White Walkers, similar to the way that Craster uses his sons to appease the White Walkers and keep his compound safe? (The gate of Craster's Keep features both a ram skull and a bear skull, and we know that bears are strongly associated with the Mormonts.) If sons fathered by Night's Watch boys are the goal, in consuming his children (sending them Beyond the Wall), is Mormont the new Rat Cook?

But.

We haven't been told that Mole's Town is a major source of recruits for the Night's Watch. Mance Rayder and Craster were both sons of Night's Watch brothers, but I don't remember this kind of paternity being in the background of other Night's Watch brothers. And Mance and Craster's mothers were both free folk, as I recall, not sex workers.

So a Craster / Mormont parallel involving babies as treasure feels like a wrong turn or a blind alley.

What else could be the meaning of the Mole's Town buried treasure that Mormont expects - even wants - Night's Watch boys to dig for?

Exploring Tunnels

The Black Gate and other tunnels might provide some clues. As I’ve mentioned in other posts, I believe GRRM presents a number of situations where key characters cross barriers or pass through to “otherworlds” in ways similar to ancient Celtic heroes. Those heroes were allowed into the realms of gods in order to complete quests or perform deeds the gods needed a mortal to undertake.

The Night’s Watch seems to have a unique role as gatekeepers between the “Beyond the Wall” realm and the area known as The North. (Or maybe the area is known as The Gift.) The vows, spoken by a Night’s Watch brother, are the only way to open the Black Gate.

The Night’s Watch also controls the tunnel at Castle Black. The opening and closing of this gate is not magical (apparently) but the Lord Commander decides when and whether to open or close it or block it.

Legends tell us that there are other tunnels under the Wall: Ygritte tells Jon the story of Gendel and Gorne leading a band of free folk through tunnels known as Gorne’s Way to attack the kneelers near Winterfell. Gorne knew how to make his way through the tunnels, but Gendel got lost in the tunnels on his return trip, according to free folk legend.

Ygritte also leads Jon away from a feast in Mance’s cave / great hall, taking him into a tunnel off the main cave where the two of them have a memorable sexual experience for the first time going completely naked without any cloaks or covers. This cave sex might bring us back around to the underground brothel and “digging for treasure” at Mole’s Town.

Before the so-called Great Ranging, some of Jon’s Night’s Watch brothers take Grenn to Mole’s Town to lose his virginity. I think Grenn is a symbolic stand-in for Jon (I’ve never really explored this at length, but I think it has to do with Benjen calling Jon a green boy when he is new to the Wall and Grenn as a symbolic green character.) So Grenn and Jon both lose their virginity but on opposite sides of the Wall and both have memorable sexual initiations in underground tunnels.  

The Night’s Watch vow opens a Black Gate to a tunnel under the Wall. Jon recites his vow again just before Qhorin leads him through a tunnel that leads to Rattleshirt and other free folk. The Night’s Watch controls the tunnel at Castle Black. The brothers of the Night’s Watch “dig for treasure” underground in Mole’s Town. But the free folk have their own tunnels and claim (in stories such as Gendel and Gorne) that there is a way through them that reaches nearly to Winterfell. The story of Bael the Bard involves crossing the Wall and hiding underground for the purpose of impregnating a Stark daughter.

In short, it seems to me that the Night’s Watch vows tie in with this idea of integrating the people on one side of the Wall with the people on the other. Or, at least, allowing people from one side to cross to the other side. Opening doors, leading through tunnels. And we see Jon perhaps rediscovering this power when he decides to open the tunnel and let the free folk come south of the Wall. He gets short with Bowen Marsh and angrily reminds him of the words of the vow – the shield that guards the realms of men, he points out, does not exclude any men, including wildlings – from being shielded by the Night’s Watch.

Wordplay Clues?

And, of course, there’s a possible wordplay clue. This possibility ties in (finally) to that opening excerpt where Jon crushes a lemon, fresh from the Wall, in his fist.

Citizen Kane had Rosebud and, I believe, ASOIAF has lemons. So many people yearn for lemons of some kind. Early on in my wordplay obsession, I noted that Mole's Town = "Two Lemons" as well as "Lost Women." What I didn't notice until a few days ago is a related possibility with a key part of the Night's Watch vow: realms of men = lemon frames? The realms of men = far lemons theme? (Of course, there are also some intriguing “Marsh” possibilities in the phrase: the realms of men = element of marsh? Marsh lemon feet? It's a long story, but feet are usually associated with oranges. Look for my Rainbow Guard thread for some attempts to explore this association.)

Other possible hints from this cluster of symbols go back to that garnet symbolism I tried to puzzle out in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read thread. Recall that Sam goes to Mole’s Town to obtain the garnets for the wolf’s eyes on the newly-made hilt of Longclaw, the Valyrian steel sword, and that Mole’s Town is where Grenn goes before the Great Ranging: the great ranging = garnet gathering. In the re-read thread, I guessed that garnets might be uniquely associated with Aegon – sort of a personal sigil, along with orange. Summary from the linked thread: Aegon Targaryen = orange garnet ay. But also garnet = argent, which is white or silver in heraldry, so white and orange or silver and orange are also Aegon’s colors.

So oranges and garnets are linked. And Maelys the Monstrous = Amethyst Sour Lemons, linking lemons and amethysts. But keep in mind that Bowen Marsh is The Old Pomegranate. Literally “apple garnet”.

Many of our heroes (as well as Petyr Baelish, who doesn’t seem at all like a hero, as far as we know) eat apples before crossing into a new realm: Baelish as he waits for Ned to descend from the Red Keep so they can meet Catelyn at the brothel; Jon as he travels south, trying to desert and join Robb’s army; Jon crushes rotten apples under foot just before leaving the wildlings at the ruined inn; Davos at White Harbor; etc. Instead of eating an “apple garnet” it seems that this apple, The Old Pomegranate, turns on Jon and stabs him (before it can be eaten). I do believe that GRRM is channeling yet another fairy tale here, and we are seeing “Snow White” fall into an enchanted sleep after taking a bite of the wrong apple.

I know this is getting way too long to hold anyone’s attention but there’s just one more point that could lead into a whole new thread. Before arguing with Jon about sealing the tunnel and about letting the free folk south of the Wall, Bowen Marsh went to the Bridge of Skulls – a very mysterious point that allows people to cross beyond the Wall or below the Wall. There Marsh confronted and killed (? At least defeated) the Weeper, a monstrous wildling who cuts the eyes out of any Night’s Watch men he kills. So there is another tie to the eyes / ice / Ei / egg theme, as well as a crossing of the Wall that should be defended by the Night’s Watch. What does it mean that Bowen Marsh defeats the Weeper but also stabs Jon Snow? Does that “the great ranging = garnet gathering” wordplay hold a clue? Does the Old Pomegranate want to stop someone from gathering more garnets?

[Seams]

P.S. I meant to note that the red comet over the Fist as Jon digs for treasure is like the red light over the brothel in Mole's Town. Yet another hint from GRRM that these places are meant to be compared.

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Jon opened a shuttered window, took the flagon of beer off the outside ledge, and filled a horn. Hobb had given him a lemon, still cold from the Wall. Jon crushed it in his fist. The juice trickled through his fingers. Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day, and claimed that was why he still had his teeth.

(AGoT, Jon IX, Chapter 70)

Buried Treasure and its applications

As I've thought about the OP and the vows discussion, I keep coming back to Mole's Town and the Fist. I think they are symbolically linked and the lemons may be a hint. It's a little complicated and I’ve included what appears to be a wrong turn in the analysis here, in case someone can make more sense of it than I did. So prepare for some symbolism stuff (or, as always, feel free to skip all of my posts if you don't believe in wordplay and symbolism in ASOIAF).

I think the Night's Watch vows or Jon's destiny in joining the Night's Watch relate to this symbol of black teeth / blades that I recently worked out in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read. In a nutshell, teeth and honey are opposites in the symbolism of bitter and sweet. Lemon is associated with teeth and oral health.

We know that Jon will soon go beyond the Wall and find the cache of dragon glass - the maesters call it obsidian - at the Fist. The dark stone blades Jon finds there must be part of the larger black diamond motif that alludes to dragon teeth (if the analysis in that AKOTSK re-read link is correct). In the excerpt I cited at the top of this comment, we get a little foreshadowing, it seems, with the lemon crushed in Jon's fist in order to promote dental health for the Lord Commander: Jon will eventually find the obsidian blades ("teeth") at the fist, looking as if they had just been freshly buried there.

As Jon digs up the bundle, he thinks he might be digging a grave at first, then thinks it might be buried treasure. And buried treasure is a link back to Mole's Town, where the men of the Night's Watch use the euphemism "digging for treasure" to refer to visits to the underground brothel. Is the comparison just that having sex is like finding valuable treasure? Or is the "treasure" the babies that often result from having sex? Later, Jon gives obsidian to Mormont and Sam and others. After Sam slays the White Walker with his obsidian dagger (protecting the baby as well as Gilly and himself), Mormont says he wants more obsidian. Is the obsidian still a "treasure" at this point? Does it still share some quality with sex or with children?

Vows are subject to interpretation

Mormont also tells Jon, "If we beheaded every boy who rode to Mole's Town in the night, only ghosts would guard the Wall." I think this quote is the money quote for understanding something important about the Night's Watch vows: Mormont doesn't consider it necessary to live by the vows. At least, not at all times. Mormont expects his "boys" to break their vows. (He even allowed Jon to attempt desertion, knowing that he would be brought back, one way or another.) I think the author is telling us that trips to Mole's Town are expected and condoned by the NW leadership. In fact, riding to Mole's Town in the night might result in a useful "buried treasure" discovery that will help the Night's Watch.

We will also see Qhorin demand that Jon reiterate his Night’s Watch vow just before leading Jon into a situation where he must kill Qhorin. It seems contrary to the vow, but Jon is actually staying true to his vow when he appears to be turning cloak and killing a Night’s Watch brother.

So does Mormont expect the young men of the Night's Watch to father sons? Is that what the "buried treasure" represents? If so, is it a bit of a Craster situation? Does Mormont need those babies to grow up, join the Night's Watch and fight the White Walkers, similar to the way that Craster uses his sons to appease the White Walkers and keep his compound safe? (The gate of Craster's Keep features both a ram skull and a bear skull, and we know that bears are strongly associated with the Mormonts.) If sons fathered by Night's Watch boys are the goal, in consuming his children (sending them Beyond the Wall), is Mormont the new Rat Cook?

But.

We haven't been told that Mole's Town is a major source of recruits for the Night's Watch. Mance Rayder and Craster were both sons of Night's Watch brothers, but I don't remember this kind of paternity being in the background of other Night's Watch brothers. And Mance and Craster's mothers were both free folk, as I recall, not sex workers.

So a Craster / Mormont parallel involving babies as treasure feels like a wrong turn or a blind alley.

What else could be the meaning of the Mole's Town buried treasure that Mormont expects - even wants - Night's Watch boys to dig for?

Exploring Tunnels

The Black Gate and other tunnels might provide some clues. As I’ve mentioned in other posts, I believe GRRM presents a number of situations where key characters cross barriers or pass through to “otherworlds” in ways similar to ancient Celtic heroes. Those heroes were allowed into the realms of gods in order to complete quests or perform deeds the gods needed a mortal to undertake.

The Night’s Watch seems to have a unique role as gatekeepers between the “Beyond the Wall” realm and the area known as The North. (Or maybe the area is known as The Gift.) The vows, spoken by a Night’s Watch brother, are the only way to open the Black Gate.

The Night’s Watch also controls the tunnel at Castle Black. The opening and closing of this gate is not magical (apparently) but the Lord Commander decides when and whether to open or close it or block it.

Legends tell us that there are other tunnels under the Wall: Ygritte tells Jon the story of Gendel and Gorne leading a band of free folk through tunnels known as Gorne’s Way to attack the kneelers near Winterfell. Gorne knew how to make his way through the tunnels, but Gendel got lost in the tunnels on his return trip, according to free folk legend.

Ygritte also leads Jon away from a feast in Mance’s cave / great hall, taking him into a tunnel off the main cave where the two of them have a memorable sexual experience for the first time going completely naked without any cloaks or covers. This cave sex might bring us back around to the underground brothel and “digging for treasure” at Mole’s Town.

Before the so-called Great Ranging, some of Jon’s Night’s Watch brothers take Grenn to Mole’s Town to lose his virginity. I think Grenn is a symbolic stand-in for Jon (I’ve never really explored this at length, but I think it has to do with Benjen calling Jon a green boy when he is new to the Wall and Grenn as a symbolic green character.) So Grenn and Jon both lose their virginity but on opposite sides of the Wall and both have memorable sexual initiations in underground tunnels.  

The Night’s Watch vow opens a Black Gate to a tunnel under the Wall. Jon recites his vow again just before Qhorin leads him through a tunnel that leads to Rattleshirt and other free folk. The Night’s Watch controls the tunnel at Castle Black. The brothers of the Night’s Watch “dig for treasure” underground in Mole’s Town. But the free folk have their own tunnels and claim (in stories such as Gendel and Gorne) that there is a way through them that reaches nearly to Winterfell. The story of Bael the Bard involves crossing the Wall and hiding underground for the purpose of impregnating a Stark daughter.

In short, it seems to me that the Night’s Watch vows tie in with this idea of integrating the people on one side of the Wall with the people on the other. Or, at least, allowing people from one side to cross to the other side. Opening doors, leading through tunnels. And we see Jon perhaps rediscovering this power when he decides to open the tunnel and let the free folk come south of the Wall. He gets short with Bowen Marsh and angrily reminds him of the words of the vow – the shield that guards the realms of men, he points out, does not exclude any men, including wildlings – from being shielded by the Night’s Watch.

Wordplay Clues?

And, of course, there’s a possible wordplay clue. This possibility ties in (finally) to that opening excerpt where Jon crushes a lemon, fresh from the Wall, in his fist.

Citizen Kane had Rosebud and, I believe, ASOIAF has lemons. So many people yearn for lemons of some kind. Early on in my wordplay obsession, I noted that Mole's Town = "Two Lemons" as well as "Lost Women." What I didn't notice until a few days ago is a related possibility with a key part of the Night's Watch vow: realms of men = lemon frames? The realms of men = far lemons theme? (Of course, there are also some intriguing “Marsh” possibilities in the phrase: the realms of men = element of marsh? Marsh lemon feet? It's a long story, but feet are usually associated with oranges. Look for my Rainbow Guard thread for some attempts to explore this association.)

Other possible hints from this cluster of symbols go back to that garnet symbolism I tried to puzzle out in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read thread. Recall that Sam goes to Mole’s Town to obtain the garnets for the wolf’s eyes on the newly-made hilt of Longclaw, the Valyrian steel sword and that Mole’s Town is where Grenn goes before the Great Ranging: great ranging = garnet gathering. In the re-read thread, I guessed that garnets might be uniquely associated with Aegon – sort of a personal sigil, along with orange. Summary from the linked thread: Aegon Targaryen = orange garnet ay. But also garnet = argent, which is white or silver in heraldry, so white and orange or silver and orange are also Aegon’s colors.

So oranges and garnets are linked. And Maelys the Monstrous = Amethyst Sour Lemons, linking lemons and amethysts. But keep in mind that Bowen Marsh is The Old Pomegranate. Literally “apple garnet”.

Many of our heroes (as well as Petyr Baelish, who doesn’t seem at all like a hero, as far as we know) eat apples before crossing into a new realm: Baelish as he waits for Ned to descend from the Red Keep so they can meet Catelyn at the brothel; Jon as he travels south, trying to desert and join Robb’s army; Jon crushes rotten apples under foot just before leaving the wildlings at the ruined inn; Davos at White Harbor; etc. Instead of eating an “apple garnet” it seems that this apple, The Old Pomegranate, turns on Jon and stabs him (before it can be eaten). I do believe that GRRM is channeling yet another fairy tale here, and we are seeing “Snow White” fall into an enchanted sleep after taking a bite of the wrong apple.

I know this is getting way too long to hold anyone’s attention but there’s just one more point that could lead into a whole new thread. Before arguing with Jon about sealing the tunnel and about letting the free folk south of the Wall, Bowen Marsh went to the Bridge of Skulls – a very mysterious point that allows people to cross beyond the Wall or below the Wall. There Marsh confronted and killed (? At least defeated) the Weeper, a monstrous wildling who cuts the eyes out of any Night’s Watch men he kills. So there is another tie to the eyes / ice / Ei / egg theme, as well as a crossing of the Wall that should be defended by the Night’s Watch. What does it mean that Bowen Marsh defeats the Weeper but also stabs Jon Snow? Does that “the great ranging = garnet gathering” wordplay hold a clue? Does the Old Pomegranate want to stop someone from gathering more garnets?

Oh, there's so much in there - I really don't know, Seams. You're either brilliant or insane, and I can't decide which

My inner Freud is going all: "So, there are no women where you live, but many tunnels. What do these tunnels make you feel?"

Then my inner Jung gets in there and my imagination is bouncing off the walls

I'm really not sure about the lemons/teeth thing - yes, scurvy->gingivitis->lemons good for teeth; but equally: fruit acids and sugars->dentine erosion->lemons bad for teeth. It's all well and good stretching ideas, but they should be stretched both ways before a fit is declared, IMHO. TBH my acquaintances are generally being told by their dentists to eat less fruit, but maybe the George didn't get that memo?

1 hour ago, Seams said:

But.

We haven't been told that Mole's Town is a major source of recruits for the Night's Watch. Mance Rayder and Craster were both sons of Night's Watch brothers, but I don't remember this kind of paternity being in the background of other Night's Watch brothers. And Mance and Craster's mothers were both free folk, as I recall, not sex workers.

Agreed, I don't really get the impression that the NW get any more 'sons' from Moles Town than they do from beyond the Wall. Which is strange, considering the proximity and generally friendlier relations. In fact, until Jon starts stirring things up, I don't recall ANY recruits from MT....

Alas, I can't dig much more tonight, it's late here....

[kissdbyfire]

I was listening to Jon's ADwD  chapters and came across something I thought was interesting regarding the NW vows. 

I can't quote atm b/c I'm on my phone, but the chapter in question is # 35, when Jon takes the recruits to the weirwood grove north of the Wall. 

Early on in the chapter, Marsh questions Jon's decision to take the recruits north of the Wall, since the Weeper [and worse] may be out there. Jon explains that traditions matter when men are pledging their lives to an organisation that stretches back "thousands" of yrs. 

Later on, as the recruits start saying the words, we get the vows interspersed w/ Jon's thoughts. And when they get to the "hold no lands, father no children" bit, Jon thinks something along the lines of the words being said for "yrs and centuries". 

The whole thing is interesting, w/ the words and Jon's thoughts every couple of lines... like Jon thinking how the voices become stronger and surer when they get to the important bits. 

I'll try to come back w/ the pertinent quotes later. I just wanted to share b/c I thought some might find it intersting as well.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 11/17/2018 at 4:53 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I was listening to Jon's ADwD  chapters and came across something I thought was interesting regarding the NW vows. 

I can't quote atm b/c I'm on my phone, but the chapter in question is # 35, when Jon takes the recruits to the weirwood grove north of the Wall. 

Early on in the chapter, Marsh questions Jon's decision to take the recruits north of the Wall, since the Weeper [and worse] may be out there. Jon explains that traditions matter when men are pledging their lives to an organisation that stretches back "thousands" of yrs. 

Later on, as the recruits start saying the words, we get the vows interspersed w/ Jon's thoughts. And when they get to the "hold no lands, father no children" bit, Jon thinks something along the lines of the words being said for "yrs and centuries". 

The whole thing is interesting, w/ the words and Jon's thoughts every couple of lines... like Jon thinking how the voices become stronger and surer when they get to the important bits. 

I'll try to come back w/ the pertinent quotes later. I just wanted to share b/c I thought some might find it intersting as well.

Perhaps this quote?

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

  May those deaths be long in coming. Jon Snow sank to one knee in the snow. Gods of my fathers, protect these men. And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me.

  "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children," the recruits promised, in voices that echoed back through years and centuries. "I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post."

  Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done and the courage to do it.

And we all know this quote by now...

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

  "Goat's milk might serve, until you do. It's better for a babe than cow's milk." Talking about breasts plainly made Sam uncomfortable, and suddenly he began to speak of history, and boy commanders who had lived and died hundreds of years ago. Jon cut him off with, "Tell me something useful. Tell me of our enemy."

  "The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books … either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or … well, it could be that there are no such books and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King … we say that you're the nine-hundred-and-ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during—"

  "Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

However, perhaps this is the other quote you had on your mind?...

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

  "Too long. This is not wise."

  "Unwise," said Jon, "but necessary. These men are about to pledge their lives to the Night's Watch, joining a brotherhood that stretches back in an unbroken line for thousands of years. The words matter, and so do these traditions. They bind us all together, highborn and low, young and old, base and noble. They make us brothers." He clapped Marsh on his shoulder. "I promise you, we shall return."

Which kinda made me think this was interesting...

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

  "OPEN THE GATE!" Big Liddle roared. His voice was thunder.

  Seven hundred feet above, the sentries heard and raised their warhorns to their lips. The sound rang out, echoing off the Wall and out across the world. Ahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. One long blast. For a thousand years or more, that sound had meant rangers coming home. Today it meant something else. Today it called the free folk to their new homes.

  On either end of the long tunnel, gates swung open and iron bars unlocked. Dawn light shimmered on the ice above, pink and gold and purple. Dolorous Edd had not been wrong. The Wall would soon be weeping. Gods grant it weeps alone.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Which kinda made me think this was interesting...

Yeah, definitely interesting. I remember I brought this up n one of the really old Heresy threads, soon after Dance was published. Most claim that “thousand” only really means “a long time ago”. I agree that it means that as well, but here it feels really odd and out of place. Whenever Jon thinks about the Wall and the NW, he thinks in terms of thousands of yrs. And it makes sense for him to do so, he grew up hearing all the tales etc. So, it feels strange that in that quote he thinks very specifically about “a thousand years or more”. And don’t get me started on the ‘or more’!

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, definitely interesting. I remember I brought this up n one of the really old Heresy threads, soon after Dance was published. Most claim that “thousand” only really means “a long time ago”. I agree that it means that as well, but here it feels really odd and out of place. Whenever Jon thinks about the Wall and the NW, he thinks in terms of thousands of yrs. And it makes sense for him to do so, he grew up hearing all the tales etc. So, it feels strange that in that quote he thinks very specifically about “a thousand years or more”.

Oh yeah, I can agree that in many cases the term "thousands" or even "hunnerds" is a catchall for " long ago". But, as you say, there are some specific things we readers and characters do know, and some information the author is trying to give us in a not so spoonfed way. I think one of the first steps to determine if the info is valid or not is to look at the source. Melisandre vs Ghost of High Heart. Jon (and Bran) are our sources here, and they are main characters, and they are directly connected to the magics and growing knowledge in this part of the story.

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

And don’t get me started on the ‘or more’!

Awwww shit... don't tempt me because now I am curious

[The Fattest Leech]

And before I forget, earlier in this thread we/I/someone brought up the idea that Waymar was a test by the Others in order to find Jon. Jon and Waymar have a lot in common, and a few weeks ago I discovered another bit... but have to find it again and add it here with those other posts.
 

It all goes back to the truth of history, one of the reasons why Westeros is in such a mess as it is now.

Found it:

• A Game of Thrones - Prologue

  "Will, where are you?" Ser Waymar called up. "Can you see anything?" He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. "Answer me! Why is it so cold?"

  It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

  A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took....

  The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

  Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

  The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

...

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light.

Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar's fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

  On and on the wildlings came. The day grew darker, just as Tormund said. Clouds covered the sky from horizon to horizon, and warmth fled. There was more shoving at the gate, as men and goats and bullocks jostled each other out of the way. It is more than impatience, Jon realized. They are afraid. Warriors, spearwives, raiders, they are frightened of those woods, of shadows moving through the trees. They want to put the Wall between them before the night descends.

  A snowflake danced upon the air. Then another. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You'll dance with me anon. (anon, meaning very soon/shortly)

  On and on and on the wildlings came. Some were moving faster now, hastening across the battleground. Others—the old, the young, the feeble—could scarce move at all. This morning the field had been covered with a thick blanket of old snow, its white crust shining in the sun. Now the field was brown and black and slimy. The passage of the free folk had turned the ground to mud and muck: wooden wheels and horses' hooves, runners of bone and horn and iron, pig trotters, heavy boots, the cloven feet of cows and bullocks, the bare black feet of the Hornfoot folk, all had left their marks. The soft footing slowed the column even more. "You need a bigger gate," Tormund complained again.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

  Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." [mocking] He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

  Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold … (the Others have been summoned and are on their way right now!)

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon and Waymar have a lot in common, and a few weeks ago I discovered another bit... but have to find it again and add it here with those other posts.

I believe George meant for Waymar to be viewed as a Last Hero archetype. There are similarities between the two. Both are NW members who journey north to battle the Others. Both break their swords. 

Saying that, I also think it is obvious George wants us to link Waymar to Jon. Along with the similarities listed above and upthread, both are killed by 'watchers'. 

Quote

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

...

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

Both Jon and Waymar are killed by a group of these watchers. Also, Waymar rises again after being killed. This one presumes Jon will rise as well. He may even kill some former brothers as Waymar did...

George is wanting the reader to link The Last Hero, Waymar, and Jon.

[The Fattest Leech]

Could be nothing? Could be a sneaky small hint in regards to the topic of this thread, but wanted to bring it forth either way. Not just the "women on the walls part", but how much Shieldhall resembles the Merman's court (just weirder) in so many ways (this is just a small excerpt)

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

  But when a knight died, his shield was taken down, that it might go with him to his pyre or his tomb, and over the years and centuries fewer and fewer knights had taken the black. A day came when it no longer made sense for the knights of Castle Black to dine apart. The Shieldhall was abandoned. In the last hundred years, it had been used only infrequently. As a dining hall, it left much to be desired—it was dark, dirty, drafty, and hard to heat in winter, its cellars infested with rats, its massive wooden rafters worm-eaten and festooned with cobwebs.

  But it was large and long enough to seat two hundred, and half again that many if they crowded close. When Jon and Tormund entered, a sound went through the hall, like wasps stirring in a nest. The wildlings outnumbered the crows by five to one, judging by how little black he saw. Fewer than a dozen shields remained, sad grey things with faded paint and long cracks in the wood. But fresh torches burned in the iron sconces along the walls, and Jon had ordered benches and tables brought in. Men with comfortable seats were more inclined to listen, Maester Aemon had once told him; standing men were more inclined to shout.

• A Dance with Dragons - Davos III

  As many times as he had visited White Harbor, Davos had never set foot inside the New Castle, much less the Merman's Court. Its walls and floor and ceiling were made of wooden planks notched cunningly together and decorated with all the creatures of the sea. As they approached the dais, Davos trod on painted crabs and clams and starfish, half-hidden amongst twisting black fronds of seaweed and the bones of drowned sailors. On the walls to either side, pale sharks prowled painted blue-green depths, whilst eels and octopods slithered amongst rocks and sunken ships. Shoals of herring and great codfish swam between the tall arched windows. Higher up, near where the old fishing nets drooped down from the rafters, the surface of the sea had been depicted. To his right a war galley stroked serene against the rising sun; to his left, a battered old cog raced before a storm, her sails in rags. Behind the dais a kraken and grey leviathan were locked in battle beneath the painted waves.

  Davos had hoped to speak with Wyman Manderly alone, but he found a crowded court. Along the walls, the women outnumbered the men by five to one; what few males he did see had long grey beards or looked too young to shave. There were septons as well, and holy sisters in white robes and grey. Near the top of the hall stood a dozen men in the blue and silver-grey of House Frey. Their faces had a likeness a blind man could have seen; several wore the badge of the Twins, two towers connected by a bridge.

  Davos had learned to read men's faces long before Maester Pylos had taught him to read words on paper. These Freys would gladly see me dead, he realized at a glance.

[Tagganaro]

On 12/10/2018 at 1:53 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I believe George meant for Waymar to be viewed as a Last Hero archetype. There are similarities between the two. Both are NW members who journey north to battle the Others. Both break their swords. 

Saying that, I also think it is obvious George wants us to link Waymar to Jon. Along with the similarities listed above and upthread, both are killed by 'watchers'. 

Both Jon and Waymar are killed by a group of these watchers. Also, Waymar rises again after being killed. This one presumes Jon will rise as well. He may even kill some former brothers as Waymar did...

George is wanting the reader to link The Last Hero, Waymar, and Jon.

Really interesting stuff between this post and @The Fattest Leech.  More Jon/Waymar comparisons:

Here is the description of Waymar in the prologue in AGOT:

Quote

He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife.  Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather.

Here is how Jon is described in Bran 1 AGOT:

Quote

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

 

[Lady Laena]

After many years of just watching and reading, at last, this topic made me want to subscribe and write. So, in a way, thank you @The Fattest Leech! I have followed many of the users writing in here, appreciating your theories over the years. I’ll try to add something, hopefully useful, beside agreeing and paraphrasing. Too much enthusiasm in this first post. XD

 

I agree that the vow of the Night’s Watch might have not been originally what it is in current ASOIAF times. In TWOIAF, we read that the Night’s Watch was born during or right after the Long Night. A similar  situation of danger is perceived by LC Snow in ADWD: Jon is  trying to unite all the men (NW, free folk, Baratheon’s men) to fight against the Others. Some lines that I found interesting in ADWD are the following:

As you will. Boys and girls as young as twelve. But only those who know how to obey an order. That goes for all of you. I will never ask you to kneel to me, but I will set captains over you, and serjeants who will tell you when to rise and when to sleep, where to eat, when to drink, what to wear, when to draw your swords and loose your arrows. The men of the Night’s Watch serve for life. I will not ask that of you, but so long as you are on the Wall you will be under my command. Disobey an order, and I’ll have your head off. Ask my brothers if I won’t. They’ve seen me do it.

So as far as people agree to fight together with discipline, he is fine with them: no need to kneel, no need to serve for life, no need to even mention family bounds. I expect the Long Night/initial NW would be similarly in need of men force not to bother about specific promises, which might have been added later.

Another detail that caught my attention was something said by Old Nan. Bran recalls she used to say that, as long as the Wall stands strong and the NW stays true, he doesn’t need to worry about the Others and all the monster beyond the Wall, they won’t pass (already mentioned by somebody else in these pages). From TWOIAF, we kinda know (I say kinda because info coming from such a long time ago may be questionable and the author is also questionable) that the Wall was built through the cooperation of First Men, Children of the Forest, and Giants. The COTF used magic which may be related to the weirwood at the Nightfort. If we add to this that Coldhands doesn’t even try to say the words of the NW, although he might have known them as he was in the NW, and that Sam's selection of words is enough to pass, it may mean that those core words are enough to demonstrate a man of the NW is true.

 

Then, we know that before the Others came, the First Men were settled from the Lands of Always Winter to the Summer Sea. I assume that they moved south as the Others came. However, as @Curled Finger pointed out, I wonder why the free folk went back north of the Wall. We know that they were already North of the Wall ca. one century after the Long Night, as the Night King was defeated by Brandon the Breaker together with Joramun who was KBTW. Why had they choose to leave in a place where the Others were? 

An additional thought RE the Night’s King might prove that the NW has lost its original scope. We know that every record of the Night’s King was destroyed supposedly because he sacrificed to the Others. So does Craster in ASOIAF time, but the NW tolerates him. Be it for “his roof, his rules”, or convenience, I would expect the opposite, if they know their scope.

It is also interesting how easy the NW abandoned the Nightfort under the reign of Jaehaerys. It means that they probably had already forgot how important this site may be, a notion which seems to be clear to Melisandre and Stannis instead. I wonder when Castle Black became the main seat of the NW. Some of you mentioned about 4K years ago. Do we have some evidence I can’t recall or find?

 

I saw you compared Ramsey to the Night’s King. I have always thought about him as an Other, especially if we think about his favourite sport (chasing girls with dogs) which reminds me of Old Nan's tale to Bran about the Others hunting girls in the haunted forest. @bemused’s quote “who comes before the God” makes me sort of think to the Great Other. It doesn’t make much sense probably, but perhaps some of you may get an idea.

[kissdbyfire]

That was a great inaugural post, @Lady Laena! Welcome

Will come back to this in a bit (on phone at the mo).

[The Fattest Leech]

@Lady Laena what a great way to join the thread here. Welcome 

I will now make it my mission to get back to my computer to respond more better like 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Lady Laena said:

After many years of just watching and reading, at last, this topic made me want to subscribe and write. So, in a way, thank you @The Fattest Leech! I have followed many of the users writing in here, appreciating your theories over the years. I’ll try to add something, hopefully useful, beside agreeing and paraphrasing. Too much enthusiasm in this first post. XD

Add everything you can think of. This thread has been interesting as sometimes it takes reads and rereads to realize some things have been before our eyes the whole time. The beauty of GRRM's writing style.

Quote

 

I agree that the vow of the Night’s Watch might have not been originally what it is in current ASOIAF times. In TWOIAF, we read that the Night’s Watch was born during or right after the Long Night. A similar  situation of danger is perceived by LC Snow in ADWD: Jon is  trying to unite all the men (NW, free folk, Baratheon’s men) to fight against the Others. Some lines that I found interesting in ADWD are the following:

As you will. Boys and girls as young as twelve. But only those who know how to obey an order. That goes for all of you. I will never ask you to kneel to me, but I will set captains over you, and serjeants who will tell you when to rise and when to sleep, where to eat, when to drink, what to wear, when to draw your swords and loose your arrows. The men of the Night’s Watch serve for life. I will not ask that of you, but so long as you are on the Wall you will be under my command. Disobey an order, and I’ll have your head off. Ask my brothers if I won’t. They’ve seen me do it.

So as far as people agree to fight together with discipline, he is fine with them: no need to kneel, no need to serve for life, no need to even mention family bounds. I expect the Long Night/initial NW would be similarly in need of men force not to bother about specific promises, which might have been added later.

I agree with this sentiment, and my basis is this quote below, which means just what it says: live your life, but get out of line and the snow will fall on ya' :

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

"The spearwives will be so happy. You might do well to bestow a castle on the Magnar."

Jon's smile died. "I might if I could trust him. Sigorn blames me for his father's death, I fear. Worse, he was bred and trained to give orders, not to take them. Do not confuse the Thenns with free folk. Magnar means lord in the Old Tongue, I am told, but Styr was closer to a god to his people, and his son is cut from the same skin. I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey."

"Aye, m'lord, but you had best do something with the Magnar. You'll have trouble with the Thenns if you ignore them."

Quote

Another detail that caught my attention was something said by Old Nan. Bran recalls she used to say that, as long as the Wall stands strong and the NW stays true, he doesn’t need to worry about the Others and all the monster beyond the Wall, they won’t pass (already mentioned by somebody else in these pages). From TWOIAF, we kinda know (I say kinda because info coming from such a long time ago may be questionable and the author is also questionable) that the Wall was built through the cooperation of First Men, Children of the Forest, and Giants. The COTF used magic which may be related to the weirwood at the Nightfort. If we add to this that Coldhands doesn’t even try to say the words of the NW, although he might have known them as he was in the NW, and that Sam's selection of words is enough to pass, it may mean that those core words are enough to demonstrate a man of the NW is true.

 

Quote

 

Then, we know that before the Others came, the First Men were settled from the Lands of Always Winter to the Summer Sea. I assume that they moved south as the Others came. However, as @Curled Finger pointed out, I wonder why the free folk went back north of the Wall. We know that they were already North of the Wall ca. one century after the Long Night, as the Night King was defeated by Brandon the Breaker together with Joramun who was KBTW. Why had they choose to leave in a place where the Others were? 

My take is that there is a quote somewhere (Ygritte?) that explains some of the free folk didn't want to move, that was their established homes, and maybe in the early days the wall was freely passable by folk free to move at will. It was only as time passed and the focus changed that it became impassable for folk to move freely. 

(sorry for the slight puns )

Quote

An additional thought RE the Night’s King might prove that the NW has lost its original scope. We know that every record of the Night’s King was destroyed supposedly because he sacrificed to the Others. So does Craster in ASOIAF time, but the NW tolerates him. Be it for “his roof, his rules”, or convenience, I would expect the opposite, if they know their scope.

Craster is a strained "friend" to say the least. But just to add a very small extra bit, even Mormont was willing to escort Craster south, so I guess not all "wildlings" are exempt? The saving of humans in all realms truly starts with Mormont in the series, Jon's poppa bear when he gets to the Night's Watch, his next in line father.

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

Craster gave a shrug. "Happens I have better things to do than tend to the comings and goings of crows." He drank a pull of beer and set the cup aside. "Had no good southron wine up here for a bear's night. I could use me some wine, and a new axe. Mine's lost its bite, can't have that, I got me women to protect." He gazed around at his scurrying wives.

"You are few here, and isolated," Mormont said. "If you like, I'll detail some men to escort you south to the Wall."

The raven seemed to like the notion. "Wall," it screamed, spreading black wings like a high collar behind Mormont's head.

And speaking of bringing free folk south, have you read Fire & Blood? This part about a free folkian is interesting...

Spoiler

• Lord Manderly entertained the queen lavishly. At the welcoming feast an entire aurochs was roasted, and his lordship’s daughter Jessamyn acted as the queen’s cupbearer, filling her tankard with a strong northern ale that Her Grace pronounced finer than any wine she had ever tasted. Manderly also staged a small tourney in the queen’s honor, to show the prowess of his knights. One of the fighters (though no knight) was revealed to be a woman, a wildling girl who had been captured by rangers north of the Wall and given to one of Lord Manderly’s household knights to foster. Delighted by the girl’s daring, Alysanne summoned her own sworn shield, Jonquil Darke, and the wildling and the Scarlet Shadow dueled spear against sword whilst the northmen roared in approval.

I have never seen any good reason yet posted by a reader that gives any decent reason as to why a free folk girl was captured north of the wall, carried south, put into a highborn house as basically nothing more than a caged fighting animal for entertainment.

Tell me again which side of the wall has the "savages"?

Quote

It is also interesting how easy the NW abandoned the Nightfort under the reign of Jaehaerys. It means that they probably had already forgot how important this site may be, a notion which seems to be clear to Melisandre and Stannis instead. I wonder when Castle Black became the main seat of the NW. Some of you mentioned about 4K years ago. Do we have some evidence I can’t recall or find?

The Night's Watch was literally distracted by shiny things!

But seriously, Alysanne was up to no good from the second she met Alaric Stark. She made him warm to her, she made the NW warm to her, all before she ripped key components out from under their feet. She cut off magics and the indigenous when she offered her jewels. That was 200 years ago (in current timeline). Between the direwolves returning, the gold paint at Queenscrown flaking away, and some northern houses till practicing first night rites (which that one is dubious- but maybe with reason), the efforts of the fire-people against the icey ones may be dwindling as we return to a balance (after the Long Night 2.0)

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"It's no freak," Jon said calmly. "That's a direwolf. They grow larger than the other kind."

Theon Greyjoy said, "There's not been a direwolf sighted south of the Wall in two hundred years."

"I see one now," Jon replied.

Which brings me to Melisandre... hell yes that fire woman knows what's up with Nighfort, and that is why she wants to get there! Ack! I have tons of ideas about this... but maybe later...

Quote

 

I saw you compared Ramsey to the Night’s King. I have always thought about him as an Other, especially if we think about his favourite sport (chasing girls with dogs) which reminds me of Old Nan's tale to Bran about the Others hunting girls in the haunted forest. @bemused’s quote “who comes before the God” makes me sort of think to the Great Other. It doesn’t make much sense probably, but perhaps some of you may get an idea.

Wonderful! Great additions to the Ramsay connections. There are many instances of the Boltons and the Starks being at each other's throats in the past that is IS continuing now in the current story. GRRM didn't give us this history so we can listen and knit a sweater as we take it in. No. The Red Kings are just as important to the current story as they were to the past.

And as far as the god before a tree idea, you are not too far off...

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

They were gone. All the bodies were gone.

"Gods!" he heard behind him. A sword slashed at a branch as Ser Waymar Royce gained the ridge. He stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see.

"Get down!" Will whispered urgently. "Something's wrong."

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Ser Waymar looked him over with open disapproval. "I am not going back to Castle Black a failure on my first ranging. We will find these men." He glanced around. "Up the tree. Be quick about it. Look for a fire."

Will turned away, wordless. There was no use to argue. The wind was moving. It cut right through him. He went to the tree, a vaulting grey-green sentinel, and began to climb. Soon his hands were sticky with sap, and he was lost among the needles. Fear filled his gut like a meal he could not digest. He whispered a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood, and slipped his dirk free of its sheath. He put it between his teeth to keep both hands free for climbing. The taste of cold iron in his mouth gave him comfort.

Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, "Who goes there?" Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched.