Night's Watch vows and the truth of history.

[AlaskanSandman]

Not only is there a change to the Night's Watch vows, but they stop saying the vows before the Weirwoods and instead say them in the sept. (Septon made a big stink about Jon saying his in front of a weirwood).

If Castle Black was made 4000 years ago, it would align with one of 3 dates we have for the Andal Invasion. 2,4, or 6 thousand years ago. If we go with the middle, itd be 4000 years ago. 

There is a weirwood in the Citidel in the oldest part. Itd be interesting if it fell in to neglect when the Andals took Old Town.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Do you think the switch in vows is in any way tied to the switch in where the L.C. is stationed at? Assuming the Nightfort is 8000 years old and as old as the wall, then Castle Black is only 4000 years old.

Good to see you again, Sandman.

It's not so much that the vows were switched (for the sake of this discussion), but that they were amended and added on to. The "core" vows that Sam says to the Black Gate seem to be about the identity of the individual, which should be all that is required to guard your friends and family. There has been some discussion introduced in to this thread that the other parts (or just the beginning) are a creed, which is an indoctrination to an authority figure. This seems to reflect the influx of new peoples with a strict faith that is very different from the First Men (who as you may agree with is actually and umbrella term for a waves of many peoples.)

Quote

Was the switch when Castle Black was built, or after? And is it tied to when the watch switched up the vows? Separating the L.C. from the Night Fort and more importantly, the Black Gate, i find interesting.  I assume the Night King Lord Commander was using the BlackGate to sacrifice to the Others. When did they stop using it? Cause the Watch was happy to leave the Nightfort in Alysanne's time suggesting at least by then, no one was using the Blackgate for sacrificing.

We may be seeing a a "reset" of history, and in doing so we could be watching how history unraveled the first time. Maybe. We are at minimum getting those broad strokes. 

Aside from Ramsay "flying down off his wall" to chase after the corpse-bride fArya, we have only one other character that is interested in the Black Gate... and this person also happens to be noted to show special interest in Bowen Marsh as well. I could go on

And speaking of going on, I have a strong feeling that there will be plenty of Queen Alysanne threads after Fire & Blood is released.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not only is there a change to the Night's Watch vows, but they stop saying the vows before the Weirwoods and instead say them in the sept. (Septon made a big stink about Jon saying his in front of a weirwood).

If Castle Black was made 4000 years ago, it would align with one of 3 dates we have for the Andal Invasion. 2,4, or 6 thousand years ago. If we go with the middle, itd be 4000 years ago. 

Yeah, there were a few times in the story where a fuss was made about going to the weirwoods rather than a sept. Not a one time mention that a reader should brush off, but two or three times that I can remember.

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is a weirwood in the Citidel in the oldest part. Itd be interesting if it fell in to neglect when the Andals took Old Town.

If I remember correctly, weirwoods rather prefer to be left alone? The weirwood you are thinking of is on the Honeywine on the Isle of Ravens... yes, oh yes, this honey and raven symbol stuffs means something at this location with certain people arriving there now, I believe.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Good to see you again, Sandman.

It's not so much that the vows were switched (for the sake of this discussion), but that they were amended and added on to. The "core" vows that Sam says to the Black Gate seem to be about the identity of the individual, which should be all that is required to guard your friends and family. There has been some discussion introduced in to this thread that the other parts (or just the beginning) are a creed, which is an indoctrination to an authority figure. This seems to reflect the influx of new peoples with a strict faith that is very different from the First Men (who as you may agree with is actually and umbrella term for a waves of many peoples.)

We may be seeing a a "reset" of history, and in doing so we could be watching how history unraveled the first time. Maybe. We are at minimum getting those broad strokes. 

Aside from Ramsay "flying down off his wall" to chase after fArya, we have only one other character that is interested in the Black Gate... and this person also happens to be noted to show special interest in Bowen Marsh as well. I could go on

And speaking of going on, I have a strong feeling that there will be plenty of Queen Alysanne threads after Fire & Blood is released.

Yes, amended to is more accurate and that wave you speak of would be the Faith hahah interesting idea on the amendment being to some higher authority. I wonder to whom you think that would be? The Faith? Maesters? No unified king really to swear to.

  And we'll see haha im really hoping Fire and Blood will touch on some of the juicier bits of Alysanne and Jaehaerys, or if it's so important, it will wait till the main books. Im kinda expecting more Daenerys threads haha an interesting change for sure.

[The Fattest Leech]

I sorta lost my place a bit in the thread with where I left off last night, so I am adding this here as it was mentioned somewhat recently...

Ancient Greek and Roman legions would often allow their warriors to pair up romantically/sexually because it was a common acceptance that you would defend and fight harder for your country if you actually had a love interest you cared for along side you.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, there were a few times in the story where a fuss was made about going to the weirwoods rather than a sept. Not a one time mention that a reader should brush off, but two or three times that I can remember.

If I remember correctly, weirwoods rather prefer to be left alone? The weirwood you are thinking of is on the Honeywine on the Isle of Ravens... yes, oh yes, this honey and raven symbol stuffs means something at this location with certain people arriving there now, I believe.

Yea i guess i more mean the part of the citidel that it's contained in. Seems rather neglected and Marwyn is all we hear of using it

[The Fattest Leech]

22 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea i guess i more mean the part of the citidel that it's contained in. Seems rather neglected and Marwyn is all we hear of using it

Gotcha. Sorry, I misunderstood. I have a whole thing I could write up about how that island is dilapidated and is most likely about to come back to "life".

[Ygrain]

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

One idea that I briefly, briefly mentioned a page or two back is about the Night’s King. That IF we are indeed witnessing  a reset/replay/repeat/whatever of history, then we will see a Night’s King replay as well... but not to expect it to be just as the tales of tales tell it. 

History repeats itself, it is known :-) Or rather, certain patterns. Which is why Stannis-Mel similarities to NK-NQ are so unsettling :-)

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I'm not here to serve you the kind of evidence that you demand. I'm here to analyse the text and discuss a certain aspect of it, using what is available and sharing my thoughts with those who are interested in the same aspect of the books. If you don't like it, just avoid my posts. I have had lots of discussions with you, and they have convinced me that you are not interested in my thoughts, so I don't know why I'm getting all this attention from you. 

Ignore button is a wonderful thing, believe me.

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Are you sure you read the post you are replying to? I have already pointed out that even men who don't have wives can have families. Parents, sisters, etc.

/cough/ Jon almost leaving for Robb /cough/

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ancient Greek and Roman legions would often allow their warriors to pair up romantically/sexually because it was a common acceptance that you would defend and fight harder for your country if you actually had a love interest you cared for along side you.

Greeks did, but if MyCullough's series set during the decline of Roman republic is anything to go buy, homosexuality was not acceptable for Romans (that may have changed under the emperors, but that's not a period I'm interested in).

[The Fattest Leech]

 

25 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Greeks did, but if MyCullough's series set during the decline of Roman republic is anything to go buy, homosexuality was not acceptable for Romans (that may have changed under the emperors, but that's not a period I'm interested in).

I trust your info over my memory any day 

I may be thinking of a different Roman custom. 

[Lord Varys]

Even if one entertains the notion that the vows may have changed overtime - why is there the idea that somehow *changed* or *twisted* their purpose?

If the celibacy thing wasn't there from the start, it would have been an improvement nonetheless, because it ensured that the Gift and the castles and the Wall itself would remain the property of the order and not become part of the feudal landscape of the Seven Kingdoms.

There are other recent innovations, too, like Jon extending NW protection to the wildlings - that was never their mission as long as they protected the Wall while the wildlings lived in the territory north of the Wall. If the founders of the Watch had intended to include the lands of the wildlings in their protection grid they would have built the Wall farther in the North.

They are men, of course, and that's why Jon can reinterpret the vow the way he does, but they were never part of the pool of people who supported the NW. And that's why this is a renovation based on a reinterpretation of an ancient vow, and not a return to the way things were before 'corruption' and 'evil innovation' had set in.

This is not Tolkien. Things in the distant past weren't the glorious elder days. It was a time where things were much worse which is why it wouldn't be a real issue if the vows of the NW had changed overtime.

As to the glory thing in the NW:

The desire and ambition to win glory and power is clearly contradictory to the stationary border duty a man of the Watch has. He is not a man who fights other men, be they evil or good, he is a man who ignores other men and guards the realm of men against demons and zombies. He cannot be distracted by the promises of power and glory and love and family. He mans the Wall and looks ever northwards.

If they held tourneys up there or indulged in other activities that would win them glory (like aggressively enlarging their territory both south and north of the Wall) things would quickly break down. This is also a reason why it makes little sense to assume that entire families could have accompanied the men who took the black - families breed more families, and the Gift was the same size for thousands of years. And nobility brings ambition, too. Peasants do peasant things, but if lords and princes and kings brought their kin with them to the Wall they would not be content to serve there meekly, especially if they never actually took the black but merely accompanied their fathers or brothers to the Wall.

We don't know how powerful the Watch was in their prime, but considering how large the Nightfort is, and how many castles they have, and how empty CB is despite the fact that a decent chunk of the men lives there, I'm inclined to believe that the Watch would have had 50,000 men in their greatest hour, perhaps even more.

And of course does every man taking the black have a family - but the clue is that he gives them up when he does that. They are still *there* but the bonds are broken, and the loyalty of a black brother belongs now to the Watch and his brothers there, not his birth family. And it is quite clear why this is the case. Jon's entire story is testament to that. He knows about the Others just as he knew about the wildlings before, but he cannot give up his family, just as he is later very confused by his torn loyalty between Ygritte and the Watch.

If we assume every black brother had his own lover he would have to worry about - and, perhaps, even children from such unions - how likely is it that they would do their duty if they had to worry about them, too? If your loved ones aren't with you but are down south then this should actually give you a better motivation to keep the enemy out of the realms of men - because when you fail they will eventually have to suffer. But where they are they are safe from the threats you protect them against.

In addition, the idea that the Watch could function if families and their issues could be brought to the Wall with children and kin doesn't sound likely. I mean, it would have been difficult enough for a Stark to suffer the presence of a Stark-flaying Bolton as a fellow brother, but if they brought their families with them or created new ones up there, people who never said the vows, then everything would break down.

[AlaskanSandman]

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is not Tolkien. Things in the distant past weren't the glorious elder days. It was a time where things were much worse which is why it wouldn't be a real issue if the vows of the NW had changed overtime.

The Palaces of the Sarnori > Westeros structures of modern times

Valyria > Westeros structures of modern times.

The Palaces of the Rhoynar > Westeros structures of modern times

Westeros ancient structures (Hightower, Winterfell, Wall, Storm's End, Highgarden) > Westeros Structures of Modern Times (Kings Landing is no where near Storm's End.) 

Also, one of the first Arryn Kings, upon flying around Westeros was so amazed by their castles, that he had to try to out do them (Aside from being on a cliff, and having lots of marble, is it better?). Which also suggest the people of Westeros were building better structures than the Andals, who left no ruins or castles behind in Andalos. And Pentos and Braavos have square buildings.

But sure haha

Not to mention the mysterious black stone structures.

[kissdbyfire]

18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Isn’t there another quote somewhere in the books that describes or explains why the castles on he wall were no true castles (except maybe Nightfort). I thought there was, but could only find this one. 

There's one in the WB. But I'm on phone now, and search of I&F doesn't work on my phone for whatever reason.

Try searching in the WB or search of I&F using "no enemies foes to the south" (or something like that?). 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

I don't have a whole lot to add except in The Way of Cross and Dragon, "Lord Commander" is what Knights Inquisitor Damien calls Archbishop Torgathon.  This indicates that the Night's Watch is a religious as well as martial institution.  The Night's Watch is essentially a military death cult, to join you give up all your possessions and family ties and give up having a wife and children, and in George's other writings god is a fictional character and the cultists and religious extremists are never the good guys. (neither is the military)

The One-True Interstellar Catholic Church has a permanent Inquisition to persecute heresy and to silence or kill anyone to defies the Church.  In that story it is revealed that there is a secret society of myth-makers who are called Liars, who invent religions to placate the masses.

In And Seven Times Never Kill Man the Steel Angels are baby killers, and expansionist nature-destroying zealots, they justify their actions by claiming they are doing Bakkalon's work.  The true religion is being at peace and in balance with Nature, and Nature ends up getting its revenge on them.

The people of Suthlam (Malthus spelled backwards) in Tuf are compelled by their religion to breed themselves right into civilization collapse.  Tuf sterilizes 99.9% of their population to restore balance.

In The Glass Flower, Kleronomas is an all-knowing cyborg whose name means "clergy no more" who forsakes immortality to live as a regular human, because the finite nature of living creatures is what gives their life meaning.  George also criticizes transhumanism in this story, arguing that uploading your consciousness to a computer (or a weirwood network or hive mind) is ultimately futile as your individual consciousness is obliterated in the process and what gets transferred is just an imitation of the original, a glass flower.

In Dying of the Light the Kavaalar religion allows them to hunt and kill innocent people on suspicion that they are "mockmen" (evil face-swapping shape-shifter doppelgangers) and enslave their women as breeders, because at some point in their past such actions were required to ensure the survival of their people, but the circumstances of their world have changed and yet the old religion endures. 

In In the House of the Worm the Yaga-la-hai are taught by their religion to hate and fear and kill and eat the Grouns who they think are evil and subhuman but are really just an offshoot of humans that have been genetically altered to live underground.  There is even a "wall" that separates the Grouns from the Yaga-la-hai.  The protaganist Annelyn realizes that they should be uniting and breeding with the Grouns rather than fighting them and their centuries-long war was a horrible mistake.  An important part of this story is that the religion of a people mirrors whatever situation they find themselves in.  The Yaga-la-hai worship a white worm that is an embodiment of death and decay, because their sun has died and they are condemned to live in underground tunnels until they all eventually die as the planet cools.

The Others are not the bad guys, and the Nights Watch are not the good guys.  Their stated mission is to guard to realms of men--presumably against the Others, but what if their true mission is to prevent the realms of men from learning the truth about the Others and uniting with them?

 

[argonak]

This has probably occurred to others before, but it only just came to me now.  If there's one thing we can tell from the size of the night's watch facilities and the wall itself, is that it was built to protect from a truly MAJOR threat.  More signficant than just its size, is how long the rest of the North willingly supported that size.  Whatever the threat was, it must have been so signficant as to have made a tremendous impression on a largely illiterate society.  

So what could make the North support an army of 20-50 thousand men, permently stationed on top of a seven hundred foot wall?  The others (if it really is them), must have had a tremendous force to warrant such a response.  Possibly hundreds of thousands of zombies, regularly assaulting the wall itself.

Now I'm thinking of that silly Great Wall movie all of a sudden.  The Westeros version would be epic.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 8/23/2018 at 3:34 PM, Lord Varys said:

That goes without saying. I'd say he even know something was afoot there with the cheesemonger and the eunuch when he wrote that scene in AGoT. But that's not the place to discuss this... ;-).

Absolutely. 

[bemused]

On 8/23/2018 at 5:17 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Isn’t there another quote somewhere in the books that describes or explains why the castles on he wall were no true castles (except maybe Nightfort). I thought there was, but could only find this one.

<snip> 

Quote

The ancient stronghold of the black brothers was no Winterfell, no true castle at all. Lacking walls, it could not be defended, not from the south, or east, or west; but it was only the north that concerned the Night's Watch, and to the north loomed the Wall.

<snip>

I had forgotten that one... but remembered the following one .. because it's the same chapter where Jon thinks of the best strategy to deal with the wildlings approaching from the south, an adaptation of which, I think he will apply to Ramsay in TWoW.  

Quote

The first time he had seen Castle Black with his own eyes, Jon had wondered why anyone would be so foolish as to build a castle without walls. How could it be defended?

"It can't," his uncle told him. "That is the point. The Night's Watch is pledged to take no part in the quarrels of the realm. Yet over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions. Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible. The Night's Watch had nine hundred and ninety-six Lords Commander before Jeor Mormont, most of them men of courage and honor . . . but we have had cowards and fools as well, our tyrants and our madmen. We survive because the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms know that we pose no threat to them, no matter who should lead us. Our only foes are to the north, and to the north we have the Wall."

ASOS, Jon VII

Benjen's reasoning make sense when it's the forces for order (Stark in WF) coming from the south, but times change and we see that Jon has to face the downside of the arrangement. For Jon and his NW, no longer are the only foes to the north. Jon has Roose and Ramsay to deal with, as well as the Others.

Aside: Jon's strategy..

Quote

The thing to do would be to take the attack to them, he thought. With fifty rangers well mounted, we could cut them apart on the road. They did not have fifty rangers, though, nor half as many horses.

ASOS, Jon VII

 ( No, I'm not meaning to get into a sidetrack discussion)

More on topic, according to BJ, not even the Nightfort was defensible from the south... but was it ever? It seems he's talking about events post Night's King.

[dmfn]

On 8/3/2018 at 12:31 AM, Trefayne said:

There are people that forget that they stashed $100,000 in a desk drawer in their own lifetime.

The Watch deteriorated, in men, fortifications and spirit. I would think that the earlier members of the NW were more or less learned men, while over time the choice of recruits fell to the illiterate and more base elements we see in the story. As the quality and quantity of men dropped, so did the ability to maintain fortifications, but more importantly to the long term health of the Watch, they let their libraries decay into disuse and ruin. They don't know what they have lost until Sam comes along and realizes the worth of the missing information.

The Black Gate isn't an inconspicuous door, it's a talking wierwood face! Seems pretty important, and memorable. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, dmfn said:

The Black Gate isn't an inconspicuous door, it's a talking wierwood face! Seems pretty important, and memorable. 

 

Isn't it at the bottom of well? Not really out in the open, and an odd place to put it. 

Ive read some theories that the Castle was built up around the Door and that the door predates The Wall's construction towards the end of the Long Night. 

There is also a part in TWOIAF suggesting that the oldest parts of the wall are made of stone foundations. It's likely the Door was built into this ancient Wall.

If it really has been 8000 years, one would think much of what was back then would be buried and built over much like Rome of old. 

Door may have been put in around the time Moles Town was made?

Edit- From the wiki for time sakes

Quote

According to maesters who served at the Nightfort, the castle was rebuilt many times over thousands of years, with only deep stone vaults remaining from its first form.^[3]

Its also the only Castle on the Wall with steps cut into the Wall.

[dmfn]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Isn't it at the bottom of well? Not really out in the open, and an odd place to put it. 

Ive read some theories that the Castle was built up around the Door and that the door predates The Wall's construction towards the end of the Long Night. 

There is also a part in TWOIAF suggesting that the oldest parts of the wall are made of stone foundations. It's likely the Door was built into this ancient Wall.

If it really has been 8000 years, one would think much of what was back then would be buried and built over much like Rome of old. 

Door may have been put in around the time Moles Town was made?

Edit- From the wiki for time sakes

Its also the only Castle on the Wall with steps cut into the Wall.

Yeah, that's true. It's pretty well hidden. But once you saw it, it would make an impression. It's a talking door. You walk into its mouth. Craziest thing in the whole series.

I can't see it having much of a function with no Wall though. Just a strange back door that opens into a tunnel in the forest?

 

[Rufus Snow]

On 8/24/2018 at 3:49 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Ancient Greek and Roman legions would often allow their warriors to pair up romantically/sexually because it was a common acceptance that you would defend and fight harder for your country if you actually had a love interest you cared for along side you.

You're thinking of the Theban 'Sacred Band' - iirc composed of 300 pairs of lovers for exactly the reason you quoted. Widely regarded as one of ancient Greece's most feared units, capable of going toe-to-toe with the the Spartan homoioi and winnning. 'Don't ask, don't tell' - hah!

/derail

/nerding