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The execution of Janos Slynt was spot on vol 2

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Pro-tip: It wasn't. The execution of Janos Slynt was personal and it was not justice. 

Mormont cut Jon some slack for his desertion of the watch and for breaking his vows.   Jon could have shown the same mercy to Janos Slynt, whose offense was a lot less than his own.  His execution of Janos Slynt was personal and made a mockery of justice when he later allowed the most insubordinate Night's Watch brother of them all in Mance Rayder walk away unpunished.   That is not proper conduct for a leader and a disgrace for a lord commander.  The appropriate punishment and wisest decision would have been to lock Slynt in one of the cells.  Jon was thinking of Ned when he killed Slynt.  It was personal.  Jon was not objective when he passed judgment on Janos Slynt.  Whatever Slynt may have done during his life before the took the black is no longer important.  Any brother who takes the black get their past crimes forgiven.  

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Still haven't actually heard a good reason for why Slynt could be reasonably expected to desert knowing he'd merely be hunted down and killed for being a deserter much less convince many others if any as well to commit suicide with him or how sending Slynt to the greyguard suddenly won't make Slynt and Thorne plotting an issue when it's time to actually decide to punish Slynt(Jon apparently thought the distance of Castle black and greguard would stop plotting between the two prior when he didn't have cause to punish Slynt severely).

If you want to make Slynt incapable of leading a garrison taking Slynt's tongue seems far more appropriate. And make him into a butcher. That would be classic.  Or geld him(which many a man would see worse than death). 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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33 minutes ago, Jedi Exile said:

Pro-tip: It wasn't. The execution of Janos Slynt was personal and it was not justice. 

Mormont cut Jon some slack for his desertion of the watch and for breaking his vows.   Jon could have shown the same mercy to Janos Slynt, whose offense was a lot less than his own.  His execution of Janos Slynt was personal and made a mockery of justice when he later allowed the most insubordinate Night's Watch brother of them all in Mance Rayder walk away unpunished.   That is not proper conduct for a leader and a disgrace for a lord commander.  The appropriate punishment and wisest decision would have been to lock Slynt in one of the cells.  Jon was thinking of Ned when he killed Slynt.  It was personal.  Jon was not objective when he passed judgment on Janos Slynt.  Whatever Slynt may have done during his life before the took the black is no longer important.  Any brother who takes the black get their past crimes forgiven.  

Very nice summary.  And this is closer to the intent of the original post.  

My opinion?  It was personal.  Jon talked himself into killing Slynt.  It was a dickish move from Jon and I suppose Jon got what he deserved when Bowen Marsh and the Crows stabbed him to death.  

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12 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

Shouldn't the name of this one be "Janos Slynt Was a Really Fun Loving, But Completely Misunderstood Guy"?

How about this one "The deceased, Jon Snow, was a conflicted lord commander who used his position to carry out revenge on his family's enemies.  Until a brave man from the swamps removed him from power."

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4 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Janos Slynt was caring father.

lol when I first read this I thought you were trolling, but you are right. Tyrion is only able to break Slynt by threatening his children kind of similar how Ned was broken. 

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19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol when I first read this I thought you were trolling, but you are right. Tyrion is only able to break Slynt by threatening his children kind of similar how Ned was broken. 

The one morally redeeming trait that's been shown quite frankly is him caring about his family quite frankly. It's a nice touch showing the humanity of someone whose mostly portrayed as scum(which he is), most of the time.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The one morally redeeming trait that's been shown quite frankly is him caring about his family quite frankly. It's a nice touch showing the humanity of someone whose mostly portrayed as scum(which he is), most of the time.

 

Well, you just had to know him better, like Janos Slynt's many friends.

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Wow, the Jon Snow hate is strong in this thread!

On 7/31/2018 at 5:55 PM, Jedi Exile said:

Pro-tip: It wasn't. The execution of Janos Slynt was personal and it was not justice.

There may have been personal elements involved in Janos Slynt's execution but it was justice.  When Janos arrived at the wall his first action was to hurry from Eastwatch by the Sea to Castle Black and put Jon in a Cell with the intent to kill him.  No trial.  No justice.   Maester Aemon's intervention prevented that murdery plan so he and his new friend Alliser Thorne cooked up a new plan to send Jon on a suicide mission to negotiate peace with Mance Rayder who had amassed his forces north of the wall.  They were confident that Jon would die on this mission.   These actions were motivated by Janos trying to curry favour at the the Wall from the Iron Throne and Twyin Lannister.  These are factors to consider before talking about Janos Slynt refusing to follow Jon's orders to take command of  Castle Greyguard.  Denys Mallister had the right measure of Slynt:  “And this so-called Lord of Harrenhal is a butcher’s whelp upjumped by the Lannisters. Small wonder he is venal and corrupt.”

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Mormont cut Jon some slack for his desertion of the watch and for breaking his vows.   Jon could have shown the same mercy to Janos Slynt, whose offense was a lot less than his own.

When Jon deserted he returned to Castle Black and was back in bed before dawn.  Much like all of the members of the watch who dig for buried treasure at the brothel south of the wall in Moletown.  This is not exactly the same thing as Slynt's public refusal to accept a command from his Lord Commander. 

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His execution of Janos Slynt was personal and made a mockery of justice when he later allowed the most insubordinate Night's Watch brother of them all in Mance Rayder walk away unpunished. 

At the time of Slynt's execution everyone in the watch believed that they had witnessed Mance Rayder dying in Melisandre's  sacrificial fires.  When "Mance" was screaming and writhing in agony Jon did the compassionate thing and had his archers save him from more pain.  It is later revealed by Melisandre that she had glamoured Rattleshirt to appear as Mance and that Mance is still alive and glamoured as Rattleshirt.  It is Melisandre and Stannis who are responsible for Mance escaping his execution.

 

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That is not proper conduct for a leader and a disgrace for a lord commander.  The appropriate punishment and wisest decision would have been to lock Slynt in one of the cells.  Jon was thinking of Ned when he killed Slynt.  It was personal.  Jon was not objective when he passed judgment on Janos Slynt.  Whatever Slynt may have done during his life before the took the black is no longer important.  Any brother who takes the black get their past crimes forgiven.  

People die in the ice cells so your preferred punishment would have been a slower and crueler path to death than the one Jon gave him.  Past crimes are supposed to be forgiven, yes.  But Slynt brought new crimes with him when he tried to kill Jon with no authority to do so, not to mention the crime of openly refusing to follow the orders of his Lord Commander.  The vows sworn by all men at the Wall don't just state that past crimes are forgiven, they also state that old loyalties should be left behind, but Slynt is clearly working to gain favour with the Iron Throne and Tywin Lannister.  I wouldn't be surprised if Slynt thought that he could earn his way back to Harrenhal.

Slynt was a cancer in Jon's command and rather than be allowed to fester and infect the rest of the watch Jon used a permanent solution when he punished him for openly refusing to follow orders. 

 

Edited by White Ravens
grammar thing

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22 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Wow, the Jon Snow hate is strong in this thread!

Not really. There has been over 40 pages written now on this subject in the last two weeks, most of us who don't regard it as justice don't hate Jon. Personally I have no issue with it, had he killed my father I'd likely do as Robb did as well, but it was not justice.

It is kind of tired to hear people discount people's opinions as not being valid because they are a 'hater' or 'fanboy'. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

 

Slynt was a cancer in Jon's command and rather than be allowed to fester and infect the rest of the watch Jon used a permanent solution when he punished him for openly refusing to follow orders. 

Jon was commander of the Watch for a whole week before he ordered the death of the man who killed his father, there really was not enough time for him to have been a 'cancer' in that time. 

Jon did fear what Slynt may do in the future so rather than whip him or send him to a cell till he changed his mind he instead killed him. A sensible, pragmatic decision but not justice. Refusing an order did not warrant his death, Jon is aware of this that is why when he thinks of suitable punishments he chooses to imagine the future crimes that Slynt could do to justify to himself that he has to kill the man he was only a few pages earlier fantasizing about killing. 

Sometimes hero's want revenge, it does not lessen them as characters, it only makes them more interesting. 

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I can accept that some people would do as Jon did, kill Slynt to avenge his father.  Hopefully those people are not in a position of power where they have to be objective and just.  And just because some people would give in to emotions and do what Jon did does not make it right.  It definitely does not make it justice.  Besides, it wasn't Slynt who killed Ned.  It was Joffrey Baratheon.  Jon took it out on Slynt because he can't strike back at the people who did it.   

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52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon did fear what Slynt may do in the future so rather than whip him or send him to a cell till he changed his mind he instead killed him. A sensible, pragmatic decision but not justice.

So you're now saying it was a sensible, pragmatic decision?  Doesn't that kind of undercut the whole "it was personal and emotional" argument?  And in turn doesn't that undercut what you end your sentence with, that it wasn't justice? 

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Refusing an order did not warrant his death.

We can disagree on this all day, going back to like the first of hundreds of threads on this, but I just don't see how you can draw this conclusion.  Following orders is paramount in a military organization.  We have yet to see anyone else disobey a LC's orders like that in the books (I guess you can count the mutineers who killed Mormont), but to outright dismiss death as a possibility for openly disobeying a Lord's orders...does not line up at all with what we see in the books IMO.

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Jon is aware of this that is why when he thinks of suitable punishments he chooses to imagine the future crimes that Slynt could do to justify to himself that he has to kill the man he was only a few pages earlier fantasizing about killing. 

And isn't this "sensible" and "pragmatic"?  Why wouldn't Jon think of "future crimes" that Slynt could (and lets be honest, probably would) commit while deciding on his sentence.  Jon rationally looks at all his options here, he's making a decision based on Slynt's past behavior (of trying to kill Jon), his present behavior (openly disobeying Jon's orders and publicly mocking him), and Slynt's likely future behavior ("I will never take orders from a traitor's bastard")...to me that is 100% justice.

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Sometimes hero's want revenge, it does not lessen them as characters, it only makes them more interesting. 

I agree with this, which is why I find Jon's reaction to the Pink Letter to be so interesting.  I just don't see it here, when again, based on my reading of the books the books pretty openly disavow the idea that this is any kind of revenge (Jon's internal monologue is showing us that Jon himself hopes Slynt obeys the order).

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1 minute ago, Tagganaro said:

So you're now saying it was a sensible, pragmatic decision? 

 

What do you mean 'now'? I was saying that two weeks ago, not once have I said otherwise.  

 

1 minute ago, Tagganaro said:

 

Doesn't that kind of undercut the whole "it was personal and emotional" argument?  And in turn doesn't that undercut what you end your sentence with, that it wasn't justice? 

How? Justice is receiving the appropriate punishment for the crime you commited, not the crimes you may or may not commit in the future. 

If you get pulled over for speeding justice is you being punished for speeding not being punished for killing running over people, which you may or may not do in the future if you carry on speeding. 

 

Many characters have done far worse things than Jon that can be justified as being pragmatically for the best, even if it is not justice. The original  OP, who i hope is well, was very clear on the subject matter, that it was personal and not justice and he/she was correct. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I can accept that some people would do as Jon did, kill Slynt to avenge his father.  Hopefully those people are not in a position of power where they have to be objective and just.  And just because some people would give in to emotions and do what Jon did does not make it right.  It definitely does not make it justice.  Besides, it wasn't Slynt who killed Ned.  It was Joffrey Baratheon.  Jon took it out on Slynt because he can't strike back at the people who did it.   

Jon didn't kill Janos Slynt to avenge his father. He executed him because of Slynts insubordination. This is what was written in the text. Yes he ponders about killing Slynt before he receives him. But when Slynt finally shows up Jon gives him the chance to command the Greyguard. This was a command and not some minor job. Actually, based on my reading of the text, this was the best position Slynt could hope to achieve at this moment. Otherwise you could point out which positions were available, which could suit Janos. When Slynt refuses, Jon gives him another night to think it over. And he actually hopes that Slynt comes to his senses:

"...He could only hope that a night's sleep would bring Lord Janos to his senses.

The next morning proved that the hope was vain."

And Jon then gives Janos another chance. And Janos defies him in front of all the people. And then Jon again ponders his possibilities. And nowhere regarding his actual decision he thinks about avenging his father. He thinks about what Slynt did and which possibilties he has. It was a very rational decision. But this already was pointed out by a lot of other posters in the first thread. So this shouldn't be new to you.

So your statement, that Jon killed Slynt to avenge his father ist just plain wrong.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Wylla Manderly said:

Jon didn't kill Janos Slynt to avenge his father. He executed him because of Slynts insubordination. This is what was written in the text.

 No, the text seems to indicate that Slynt is not executed because he was insubordinate but because Jon was concerned with what he would do in the future. 

"You are refusing to obey my order?"

 "You can stick your order up your bastard's arse," said Slynt, his jowls quivering.

 Alliser Thorne smiled a thin smile, his black eyes fixed on Jon. At another table, Godry the Giantslayer began to laugh.

 "As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall - "

 -  and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

—and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?
"—and hang him," Jon finished.
 
 
Had most, perhaps all other brothers, committed insubordination they'd be in a cell or tied to a horse on their way to Greyguard. Slynt was executed for what Jon feared he could do.  That is not justice. 
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So your statement, that Jon killed Slynt to avenge his father ist just plain wrong.

No, it really is not. He is literally fantasizing about slicing his head off in the same chapter while acknowledging he can not bring himself to think of him as a brother. This is not some literary coincidence, Jon has a huge grudge against this man and it informed his decision. 

Do you think any American judge who was dealing with a criminal who had killed a love one would be able to fairly judge that person? Jon made a snap judgement, no time to think about, no discussion with anyone else but in a split second he went from thinking the man who killed his father should be sent to a cell to execution. 

Maybe consciously Jon thinks Janos killing his father had nothing to do with it but his subconscious betrays him, we know what was on his mind and he took the chance to kill the man who killed his father as soon as he could. 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The one morally redeeming trait that's been shown quite frankly is him caring about his family quite frankly. It's a nice touch showing the humanity of someone whose mostly portrayed as scum(which he is), most of the time.

 

Contrast that with Joff's reaction about Robert's death in first Sansa's chapter in Acok.

Martin gave minor redeeming quality to secondary character, yet  didn't give Joffrey, who is more important character than him.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Are we still having the Janos Slynt, oppressed victim argument? Sheesh, it's been what a couple of years now?

It's like trickle-down economics; a ludicrous theory that refuses to die no matter how many times it is disproved.

Edited by The Ned's Little Girl

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