The execution of Janos Slynt was spot on vol 2

[Clegane'sPup]

10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Are we still having the Janos Slynt, oppressed victim argument? Sheesh, it's been what a couple of years now?

Sure, why not.

The USA government has to put out warnings about jumping out of moving cars and the dangers of pouring boiling water on people.

 

[Lord Lannister]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Sure, why not.

The USA government has to put out warnings about jumping out of moving cars and the dangers of pouring boiling water on people.

 

At least those are over with quickly.  

[TheMiddleHero]

I have to say, hadn't checked this site in quite a while, and the original thread just intrigued me to respond when I did read it. It amazes me the lengths some will go through to spin Janos Slynt as a victim. He's like Jesus reborn after 6+ years without a book from GRRM.

The Seven save Janos Slynt, the martyr of the NW.

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is kind of tired to hear people discount people's opinions as not being valid because they are a 'hater' or 'fanboy'. 

 

God forbid you don't express a viewpoint of a specific popular character's action that's not shared by the majority of the fandom. You don't think Jon's decision to execute of Slynt was influenced by the man killing his father and wasn't truly just? What you can only be saying is Jon sucks and Slynt rocks

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Contrast that with Joff's reaction about Robert's death in first Sansa's chapter in Acok.

Martin gave minor redeeming quality to secondary character, yet  didn't give Joffrey, who is more important character than him.

Meh, I took Joffery asking Tyrion's expression of sympathy for Robert's death more of surprise that Tyrion(who he hates and who hates him), is expressing sympathy to the boy rather than an attempt to show Joffery genuinely didn't care about the man. I do believe if there was anyone Joffery could be seen as loving Robert seems the most obvious. Ned actually noted the boy was distressed at seeing Robert dying, Joffery quotes Robert on occasion, and likely tried to get Bran killed because Robert's whole "cripples should be euthanized" speech. Hell even the incident with the cat has Joffery seemingly trying to impress Robert(who loves hunting), in Joffery being able to do something like it in his warped five year old mind. Their relationship was interesting. 

[Bernie Mac]

58 minutes ago, TheMiddleHero said:

I have to say, hadn't checked this site in quite a while, and the original thread just intrigued me to respond when I did read it. It amazes me the lengths some will go through to spin Janos Slynt as a victim.

If it amazes you then you should have no trouble finding ten posts in the last thread of people calling him a victim. 

Janos is scum, on a karmic level he deserved everything he got afterall the man was willing to order the deaths of children for the right price, but the whole point of the nights watch is that the sins of their former life are no longer held against them, they have received their punishment by being sent to the wall.  A miscarriage of justice is no less a miscarriage if an awful person is the recipient. 

When Jon sentenced him to death he was not offering justice, it was revenge. 

 

Though there is one great irony about this whole thread, people forget that Jon's 'father' was also corrupt, that he was trying to bribe Slynt and the Gold Cloaks to betray the new king and by refusing  Slynt was actually loyal to his king. Tyrion, not wanting a commander of the Gold Cloaks more loyal to  the Royal family rather than himself had him sent to the Wall. The accusations that he had to be killed or he would mutiny ring are not necessarily true, he's been a 'company man' his entire life. 

 

58 minutes ago, TheMiddleHero said:

He's like Jesus reborn after 6+ years without a book from GRRM.

Is there any need for such hyperbole.  

[Wylla Manderly]

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 No, the text seems to indicate that Slynt is not executed because he was insubordinate but because Jon was concerned with what he would do in the future. 

"You are refusing to obey my order?"

 "You can stick your order up your bastard's arse," said Slynt, his jowls quivering.

 Alliser Thorne smiled a thin smile, his black eyes fixed on Jon. At another table, Godry the Giantslayer began to laugh.

 "As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall - "

 -  and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

—and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?

"—and hang him," Jon finished.

 

 

Had most, perhaps all other brothers, committed insubordination they'd be in a cell or tied to a horse on their way to Greyguard. Slynt was executed for what Jon feared he could do.  That is not justice. 

No, it really is not. He is literally fantasizing about slicing his head off in the same chapter while acknowledging he can not bring himself to think of him as a brother. This is not some literary coincidence, Jon has a huge grudge against this man and it informed his decision. 

Do you think any American judge who was dealing with a criminal who had killed a love one would be able to fairly judge that person? Jon made a snap judgement, no time to think about, no discussion with anyone else but in a split second he went from thinking the man who killed his father should be sent to a cell to execution. 

Maybe consciously Jon thinks Janos killing his father had nothing to do with it but his subconscious betrays him, we know what was on his mind and he took the chance to kill the man who killed his father as soon as he could. 

You really don't understand it. Of course Jon thinks about Slynt and how he hates him and how it would be satisfying to kill him. But despite his personal feelings Jon offers him the commanding position at Greyguard. And I asked it in my last post and do so again. Which other suitable position could Jon offer to Slynt? And Slynt refuses this command by Jon. And he not only refusses but he also insults Jon. And still Jon gives him another chance to think it over. And the next morning Jon confronts Slynt again in the common room. And Slynt refusses again and he also insults Jon again. This time in front of all present NW members. This is insubordination and this is the reason Jon punishers him. And nowhere there is any indication that revenge has anything to do with his decision. Otherwises you are free to quote. And regarding the sentence, Jon ponders the possibilities. And yes, the prognosis what Slynt would do in the future plays a part. The prognosis of future behaviour also plays a part in sentencing today. A judge also considers possible future behaviour based on the past behaviour of the accused. He also considers if the accused shows remorse. As Janos' behavour clearly shows that he probably would't change and he doesn't show remorse Jon comes to the conclusion that no other option would work. And again, this is a very rational decision.

[The Sunland Lord]

Jon should have beheaded Marsh, Slynt, Thorne, etc. for plotting to grant Tywin Lannister a favour, a man who didn't have any business in the Watch matters. 

 

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, Wylla Manderly said:

You really don't understand it. Of course Jon thinks about Slynt and how he hates him and how it would be satisfying to kill him. But despite his personal feelings Jon offers him the commanding position at Greyguard.

To rid himself of a rival. 

"It was. The fort is in a sorry state, admittedly. You will restore it as best you can. Start by clearing back the forest. Steal stones from the structures that have collapsed to repair those still standing." The work will be hard and brutal, he might have added. You' ll sleep on stone, too exhausted to complain or plot, and soon you' ll forget what it was like to be warm, but you might remember what it was to be a man

It is a clear punishment for a man he hates and wants dead and is offered to provoke a reaction. He later is hoping Thorne gives him an excuse to do the same to him.  

Janos Slynt's face went as white as milk. The spoon slipped from his fingers. Edd and Emmett crossed the room, their footsteps ringing on the stone floor. Bowen Marsh's mouth opened and closed though no words came out. Ser Alliser Thorne reached for his sword hilt. Go on, Jon thought. Longclaw was slung across his back. Show your steel. Give me cause to do the same.

 

I find it admirable, he goes machiavellian, makes certain that many who did not vote for him are not fearful of what he will do (though it possible that may have backfired given that later he himself is murdered by them for not being willing to compromise). 

[Wylla Manderly]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

To rid himself of a rival. 

"It was. The fort is in a sorry state, admittedly. You will restore it as best you can. Start by clearing back the forest. Steal stones from the structures that have collapsed to repair those still standing." The work will be hard and brutal, he might have added. You' ll sleep on stone, too exhausted to complain or plot, and soon you' ll forget what it was like to be warm, but you might remember what it was to be a man

It is a clear punishment for a man he hates and wants dead and is offered to provoke a reaction. He later is hoping Thorne gives him an excuse to do the same to him.  

Janos Slynt's face went as white as milk. The spoon slipped from his fingers. Edd and Emmett crossed the room, their footsteps ringing on the stone floor. Bowen Marsh's mouth opened and closed though no words came out. Ser Alliser Thorne reached for his sword hilt. Go on, Jon thought. Longclaw was slung across his back. Show your steel. Give me cause to do the same.

 

I find it admirable, he goes machiavellian, makes certain that many who did not vote for him are not fearful of what he will do (though it possible that may have backfired given that later he himself is murdered by them for not being willing to compromise). 

Of course, one of the reasons Jon choose Greyguard as the place to send Slynt to, was that he was not be able to plot. In my opinion a wise move and no punishment. It is a hard job, but most jobs in the Night's Watch are and Jon tries to use his personnel as good as possible. But nowhere in the text it is  indicated that Jon hopes that Slynt would decline the command. Actually exact the opposite.  Jon thinks that Slynt has some abilities - he disusses this shortly with Giant, who gets the command of Icemark. And after Slynt declines the first time he hopes that he comes to his his senses - I already quoted this. So no, Jon did not goad Slynt to decline the offer.

[Tagganaro]

16 minutes ago, Wylla Manderly said:

Of course, one of the reasons Jon choose Greyguard as the place to send Slynt to, was that he was not be able to plot. In my opinion a wise move and no punishment. It is a hard job, but most jobs in the Night's Watch are and Jon tries to use his personnel as good as possible. But nowhere in the text it is  indicated that Jon hopes that Slynt would decline the command. Actually exact the opposite.  Jon thinks that Slynt has some abilities - he disusses this shortly with Giant, who gets the command of Icemark. And after Slynt declines the first time he hopes that he comes to his his senses - I already quoted this. So no, Jon did not goad Slynt to decline the offer.

Apparently Jon hates Giant and Edd and Iron Emmett too .  "Ridding himself of rivals." 

[Bernie Mac]

21 minutes ago, Wylla Manderly said:

Of course, one of the reasons Jon choose Greyguard as the place to send Slynt to, was that he was not be able to plot. 

well then he is clearly contradicting himself because the reason he chooses to execute him is his fear that he will plot and mutiny at Greyguard. 

 

He wanted his father's killer dead so he killed him. 

 

 

[Wylla Manderly]

3 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Apparently Jon hates Giant and Edd and Iron Emmett too .  "Ridding himself of rivals." 

Yeah, probably. As well as the thirty me.n who will do the actual work.

[Unacosamedarisa]

14 hours ago, Wylla Manderly said:

You really don't understand it. Of course Jon thinks about Slynt and how he hates him and how it would be satisfying to kill him. But despite his personal feelings Jon offers him the commanding position at Greyguard.

This is really the pertinent point... That Jon, despite Slynt and all he's done, tries to work with him, and offers him command of a castle on the Wall not once, but twice. Jon puts his personal feelings aside, and tries to deal with Slynt impersonally. Slynt refuses to accept the order, so Jon deals him some military justice. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 7/31/2018 at 5:50 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Previous thread has reached 20 pages.

This is what happens when people don't read the same book
 

On 7/31/2018 at 5:55 PM, Jedi Exile said:

Pro-tip: It wasn't. The execution of Janos Slynt was personal and it was not justice. 

Mormont cut Jon some slack for his desertion of the watch and for breaking his vows.   Jon could have shown the same mercy to Janos Slynt, whose offense was a lot less than his own.  His execution of Janos Slynt was personal and made a mockery of justice when he later allowed the most insubordinate Night's Watch brother of them all in Mance Rayder walk away unpunished.   That is not proper conduct for a leader and a disgrace for a lord commander.  The appropriate punishment and wisest decision would have been to lock Slynt in one of the cells.  Jon was thinking of Ned when he killed Slynt.  It was personal.  Jon was not objective when he passed judgment on Janos Slynt.  Whatever Slynt may have done during his life before the took the black is no longer important.  Any brother who takes the black get their past crimes forgiven.  

case in point here 

[kissdbyfire]

29 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This is what happens when people don't read the same book
 

case in point here 

It's truly baffling. Some things are open for debate speculation, and sure, different people will have different opinions etc. But this is spelled out, we have Jon's thoughts on the matter, and I don't get why people are still arguing that it was personal, it was vengeance, yadda yadda yadda. 

I mean, seriously, this is a non-thread, on its third iteration, debating a non-issue. The mind boggles. 

[Clegane'sPup]

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's truly baffling

Ready to Good. This is my for fun and for free idea.

Let take off my tin foil antenna and let me put on my arm chair psychologist, social worker, psychiatrist ten dollar degree cap. Hum, umm, yes, right, okay, yeah umm ya might wanna reconsider. Ah yes, rubs hairless chin, mayhaps you may need to come back next week.

That is not intended for the smoochy faced redhead it is for Slynties.

[Lord Varys]

39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's truly baffling. Some things are open for debate speculation, and sure, different people will have different opinions etc. But this is spelled out, we have Jon's thoughts on the matter, and I don't get why people are still arguing that it was personal, it was vengeance, yadda yadda yadda. 

I mean, seriously, this is a non-thread, on its third iteration, debating a non-issue. The mind boggles. 

Those books are, at times, written in such a way that we actually do not know what people think or say or do. Else Ned's first chapter would not only have spelled out that Jon is not his son but also the entire sad story of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Or take the conversation between Tyrion and Haldon - we don't know what Haldon said to Tyrion or what he had figured out by himself at that point.

Or take the way the whole valonqar/Maggy thing remained in the dark for nearly an entire novel, or how the true story of Tysha was not revealed until Jaime actually spilled it out in conversation. And so on.

It is clear that Jon Snow's decisions are informed by his entire personality, not just those the author shares with us. And it is very likely that Slynt's actions in the past as well as his overall attitude towards Jon, personally, played a huge role in Jon's decision to execute the man.

It is an interesting fact in the entire chapter that Jon only thinks of mild punishments (like binding him to his horse to get to Greyguard or throwing him into an ice cell) and then jumps immediately to execution.

There is much and more between imprisonment and execution in this world. Nobody ever asked me what I thought was the proper punishment for Slynt if not execution. Why not beat the man to pulp? Why not castrate him, like Johanna Lannister castrated one of the sons of the Red Kraken? Why not cripple, maim, or torture him? There are many ways to break a man, and many of those ways could have send a much more clearer message to Slynt's buddies (provoke me and you suffer the same fate) as well as to the people beyond the Wall (Jon Snow is not running around executing friends of House Lannister for being friends with House Lannister).

[Darth Sidious]

13 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Jon should have beheaded Marsh, Slynt, Thorne, etc. for plotting to grant Tywin Lannister a favour, a man who didn't have any business in the Watch matters. 

 

The NW should have beheaded Jon Snow for failing to carry out justice when he let Mance Rayder off the hook.  But they stabbed him instead.  Dead is dead.  So I guess Jon got what he gave.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's truly baffling. Some things are open for debate speculation, and sure, different people will have different opinions etc. But this is spelled out, we have Jon's thoughts on the matter, and I don't get why people are still arguing that it was personal, it was vengeance, yadda yadda yadda. 

I mean, seriously, this is a non-thread, on its third iteration, debating a non-issue. The mind boggles. 

welcome to the westeros forum..........