The execution of Janos Slynt was spot on vol 2

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Buell Rider said:

Confinement in the ice cells is the appropriate punishment for what Slynt did.  Execution is not.  Think harder, kissbyfire.

And what are you basing your definition of “appropriate punishment” on? Can you quote any passage in the books that defines the punishment for continued insubordination in the NW? No you can’t, cause there isn’t one. Now don’t go comparing what Mormont did or did not do cause the circumstances were very different. The LC has the right to pass judgement as he sees fit. That’s exactly why you don’t see any opposition from the officers when Jon commands Slynt be executed. Jon second guesses many of his actions all through his chapters but he has no doubts about executing Slynt because there was no conflict with his duty as LC in doing so. 

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Buell Rider said:

It was unjust.  It was partly personal.  Driven by Jon's desire to get even for his father's death.  And his self-induced paranoia of what Janos Slynt might (emphasis on might) do in the future.

Janos Slynt was a broken man right before he was killed.  Jon could have and should have sent him to the cells for confinement.  He might even send him on to Greyguard as a lowly cook's assistant.   The man was done plotting.  To kill a broken man who finally agreed to follow orders is just butchery.  

 

Read the books. If that’s too hard, here’s Jon’s thoughts when he gives Slynt command of Greyguard:

”I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father”. 

Then again you have this:

”He could only hope that a night’s sleep would bring Lord Janos to his senses. The next morning proved that hope was vain.”

These are the thoughts of a man trying to put his feelings aside and command a military organization in a medieval setting not as you say of a man trying to “get even for his father’s death”.

As for Slynt being a broken man, he became such only when his head was on the chopping block. I’d call that Slynt realizing he’s a dead man not him being a “broken man”.

[Bullrout]

1 hour ago, Buell Rider said:

Confinement in the ice cells is the appropriate punishment for what Slynt did.  Execution is not.  Think harder, kissbyfire.

Execution is too harsh for this type of offense.  The Brotherhood reserved its use for the most serious of crimes, desertion.  

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

The appropriate punishment is whatever the LC of the NW decides it is. If you were the LC, you could have sent Slynt to the ice cells, or you could have given him a lollipop, or whatever. Only you are not the LC of the NW. 

Jon was obligated to execute Mance Rayder.  He did not.  So Jon failed to carry out his duty.  He is also guilty of being unjust because he executed a man for a lesser crime.  

[teej6]

1 minute ago, Bullrout said:

Jon was obligated to execute Mance Rayder.  He did not.  So Jon failed to carry out his duty.  He is also guilty of being unjust because he executed a man for a lesser crime.  

Sigh! Go back and read the reams of pages on this topic itself on why Jon didn’t execute Mance. Mance was not Jon’s prisoner to begin with. Jon saw Rattleshirt burn thinking it was Mance just like everyone else. When Mel does reveal to Jon that Mance is alive, there’s not much Jon can do. What do you expect him to do, fight Mel and perhaps even Stannis on it? Was he supposed to draw his sword and kill Mance on the spot? You only have a comparable argument with Slynt’s case if Mance was Jon’s prisoner and he commuted Mance’s sentence. But that’s not how events transpire in the books, now is it?

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

Execution is too harsh for this type of offense.  The Brotherhood reserved its use for the most serious of crimes, desertion.  

 

Jon was obligated to execute Mance Rayder.  He did not.  So Jon failed to carry out his duty.  He is also guilty of being unjust because he executed a man for a lesser crime.  

Lesser according to who, you? Again, for the umpteenth time, the punishment is decided by the LC. Are you LC of the NW? It's the point @teej6 just made above, also for the umpteenth time. Jon's decision to execute Slynt was not unjust, but more importantly, it was not questioned by any crow, not even Jon's detractors.

Mance is a different issue, and it's infantile to keep using the fact that Jon didn't execute him as an argument to defend Janos Slynt. Furthermore, Mance is not the topic of this thread, and if you want to discuss his non-execution, start another thread instead. 

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, Buell Rider said:

It was unjust.  It was partly personal.  Driven by Jon's desire to get even for his father's death. 

Beg to differ, but I believe this is a totally skewed reading of the entire passage. GRRM shows us Jon mulling over the wrongs that Slynt has done in the past, then Jon puts those aside to offer a command post to someone he finds it 'hard' (NOTE: not IMPOSSIBLE) to take as a brother. Jon DOES put Slynt's history behind him, and accepts that what went 'before the Wall' is wiped clean.

We have to note here also that neither Slynt nor Thorne put Jon's 'pre-Wall' circumstances behind him - they both call him a 'traitor's bastard', so they don't offer him the courtesy of wiping his past clean, like he does for Slynt.

It seems the maintsay of the 'Slynty defence' is that because Jon thought about the blood between them, that that is what he acted on. I firmly believe GRRM wrote that whole section to show Jon overcoming his 'personal' issues in favour of what serves the Watch better - ie giving Slynt something to do that would be useful, and make use of his experience as a commander.

This is where the boy is kiiled and the man is born: Jon Snow is the boy with the old beef; LC Snow is the man who tries to give Slynt a second (third, etc etc) chance by giving him a command. It was Slynt's mutiny against his LC that got him shortened by a head, not his old beef with the boy. But all we hear is 'but Jon thought about his beef' - yet how else could GRRM have shown us that Jon had overcome that beef without letting him think about it??? It seems for the 'Slynty defence', Jon's damned if he does, and damned if he don't.

1 hour ago, Buell Rider said:

And his self-induced paranoia of what Janos Slynt might (emphasis on might) do in the future.

It's not paranoia - after deciding that Slynt needed to be punished, and deciding that execution was the appropriate sentence, Jon still looked for reasons to give him clemency. But every way he could think of to commute the sentence had fatal flaws - Slynt would continue to plot or desert or otherwise undermine the command of the LC. You might read that as looking for reasons to kill Slynt, I see it as Jon still looking for grounds for clemency, but finding nothing.

1 hour ago, Buell Rider said:

Janos Slynt was a broken man right before he was killed.  Jon could have and should have sent him to the cells for confinement.  He might even send him on to Greyguard as a lowly cook's assistant.   The man was done plotting. 

He wasn't a broken man, that implies he was a man at some point By the time his head was on the block he was a snivelling little boy. If you've ever seen a three year old suddenly start screaming 'SORRYSORRYSORRYSORRY' once a frustrated parent has finally lifted a hand, or called for the naughty step, or taken away TV rights, then you've seen the same performance that Slynt gave then. There is absolutely no sincerity in such an 'apology', just a desperate, selfish panic to avoid the inevitable - and deserved - punishment.

1 hour ago, Buell Rider said:

To kill a broken man who finally agreed to follow orders is just butchery. 

He didn't 'finally' agree to follow orders. When he was given his final chance he was still suggesting proctological procedures, and defying and mocking his LC. Once the order was given, he was beyond 'final'.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Buell Rider said:

Confinement in the ice cells is the appropriate punishment for what Slynt did.  Execution is not.

Good answer. LC Snow could have had Slynt placed in an ice cell to freeze to death. Except martin decided that Slynts head would roll.

[Moiraine Sedai]

This was the beginning of Jon's downwards slide.  His judgment started to get worse from this point forward.  He followed the execution with the mission to get Arya to his intent to lead the Wildlings against the Bolton's.  The execution, the mission to get Arya, and the intent to attack the Bolton's are all caused by Jon's inability to make sound, objective decisions whenever a Stark was involved.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Entirely different circumstances.

Davos was judged by Stannis for smuggling, after saving Storm's Enders lives with the formers' supplies. Knowing Stannis he'd probably would've judged Davos more harshly if he just cought him for smuggling btw. 

Completely irrelevant to my overall point-the guy I was responding claimed we've only seen utterly despicable charachters to which most fans are supposed to be revolted by use mutilation as punishment-Stannis clearly is not such a charachter yet mutilated Davos in response to his crime. 

Mutilation isn't something just shown as being used as punishment by the "evil charachters; 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

By the time his head was on the block he was a snivelling little boy. If you've ever seen a three year old suddenly start screaming 'SORRYSORRYSORRYSORRY' once a frustrated parent has finally lifted a hand, or called for the naughty step, or taken away TV rights, then you've seen the same performance that Slynt gave then. There is absolutely no sincerity in such an 'apology', just a desperate, selfish panic to avoid the inevitable - and deserved - punishment.

48 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

This was the beginning of Jon's downwards slide.  

Funny, I'd say that this was the establishment of Jon as a man and leader who is able to make hard choices and follow through, and who knows that life is not a song where heroes are always good and never get their hands dirty.

[Ygrain]

If you want to see a man unable to put aside his personal grudge (death of a father figure), watch here and tell me if you really think this is what Jon did.

- Just to make clear who the Wardens are: Kinslayers, blood mages, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits. Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us. Sounds familiar? :-)

[Clegane'sPup]

Can we agree that Eddard was not beheaded because he was a traitor? Eddard was beheaded due to the politics taking place in KL.

The Slynt Jon Snow confrontation is below.

A Storm of Swords - Jon IX    "My father was murdered." Jon was past caring what they did to him, but he would not suffer any more lies about his father.    Slynt purpled. "Murder? You insolent pup.     King Robert was not even cold when Lord Eddard moved against his son."     He rose to his feet; a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear tipped with red enamel pinned his cloak at the shoulder. "Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King's Hand. For you, a noose will serve. Ser Alliser, take this turncloak to an ice cell."  "My lord is wise." Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm./

Who gave Slynt the authority to take command of CB and place Jon in a ice cell?

Slynt and Thorne send Jon out to kill Mance or is that have Mance kill Jon?

A Storm of Swords - Jon X    That was so wrong Jon might have laughed. "You've got it backward. Mance suspected me from the first. If I show up in his camp wearing a black cloak again and speaking for the Night's Watch, he'll know that I betrayed him."     "He asked for an envoy, we are sending one," said Slynt. "If you are too craven to face this turncloak king, we can return you to your ice cell. This time without the furs, I think. Yes."    "No need for that, my lord," said Ser Alliser. "Lord Snow will do as we ask. He wants to show us that he is no turncloak. He wants to prove himself a loyal man of the Night's Watch."/

Jon, who did not campaign to be lord commander. Jon Snow, the 15-16 year old bastard, now has a position that he did not seek nor did he want nor seek. Yes, Samwell and Aemon did some wheeling and dealing.

The boy, Jon Snow,  was taken on a ranging by Mormont, passed off to Halfhand, they get stranded, Halfhand says Jon is to lie and do what he needs to  do to survive so he can warn the Watch, Jon kills Halfhand, Jon enjoys getting his cherry plucked, He climbs the Wall with the wildlings, he manages to get back to CB to warn of the impending attack and holds the Wall.

Only to be what, what, what roused outta bed and placed in an ice cell by Slynt, a liar, and extortionist craven.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Can we agree that Eddard was not beheaded because he was a traitor? Eddard was beheaded due to the politics taking place in KL.

One can agree there. But this is actually meaningless considering Slynt could have skinned Ned alive and made Jon watch - and Jon should still forget all of that after Slynt took the black.

In addition, though, we do know that Ned isn't a traitor (or rather: not a traitor the way he is portrayed - he still lied to his friend and king on the deathbed and forged his last will) - Janos Slynt, Jon Snow, Robb Stark, and many other characters in the books actually do not know this. They only know that Ned confessed his treason and was duly executed.

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A Storm of Swords - Jon IX    "My father was murdered." Jon was past caring what they did to him, but he would not suffer any more lies about his father.    Slynt purpled. "Murder? You insolent pup.     King Robert was not even cold when Lord Eddard moved against his son."     He rose to his feet; a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear tipped with red enamel pinned his cloak at the shoulder. "Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King's Hand. For you, a noose will serve. Ser Alliser, take this turncloak to an ice cell."  "My lord is wise." Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm./

Who gave Slynt the authority to take command of CB and place Jon in a ice cell?

Jon should have kept his mouth and not accused his fellow brother as a murderer - and Slynt did not murder Ned. He followed the command of his king to execute a traitor. That's not murder. We don't even know whether Slynt believes Ned's claim that Cersei's children are not Robert's. If he believes they are then he would perceive Ned as a genuine traitor.

But one assumes Slynt and Thorne were given command of CB by Cotter Pyke who sent them there. They did not go there simply because they thought Castle Black was a great place to be.

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Beg to differ, but I believe this is a totally skewed reading of the entire passage. GRRM shows us Jon mulling over the wrongs that Slynt has done in the past, then Jon puts those aside to offer a command post to someone he finds it 'hard' (NOTE: not IMPOSSIBLE) to take as a brother. Jon DOES put Slynt's history behind him, and accepts that what went 'before the Wall' is wiped clean.

He doesn't do that when he presumes to accuse Slynt of murder when the merely executed a traitor following the command of the king.

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

This is where the boy is kiiled and the man is born: Jon Snow is the boy with the old beef; LC Snow is the man who tries to give Slynt a second (third, etc etc) chance by giving him a command. It was Slynt's mutiny against his LC that got him shortened by a head, not his old beef with the boy. But all we hear is 'but Jon thought about his beef' - yet how else could GRRM have shown us that Jon had overcome that beef without letting him think about it??? It seems for the 'Slynty defence', Jon's damned if he does, and damned if he don't.

The man was stillborn. Jon Snow is still the boy when he decides to break his vows for Arya. One can only hope the zombie version will finally be a man.

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

He didn't 'finally' agree to follow orders. When he was given his final chance he was still suggesting proctological procedures, and defying and mocking his LC. Once the order was given, he was beyond 'final'.

That doesn't change the fact that Jon could have still changed the sentence there - after all, he did change the punishment, did he not? - and chose not to do so. Jon had all the power in the scene - he could have done anything he wanted with Slynt. But he chose to behead him. It was his choice, and nobody forced him to do this.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

And what are you basing your definition of “appropriate punishment” on? Can you quote any passage in the books that defines the punishment for continued insubordination in the NW? No you can’t, cause there isn’t one. Now don’t go comparing what Mormont did or did not do cause the circumstances were very different. The LC has the right to pass judgement as he sees fit. That’s exactly why you don’t see any opposition from the officers when Jon commands Slynt be executed. Jon second guesses many of his actions all through his chapters but he has no doubts about executing Slynt because there was no conflict with his duty as LC in doing so. 

Who cares about what rights Jon had? The important thing is what he did. He could have shown mercy but he chose not to do this. Whether people approve of this or not has nothing to do with the question whether this was a smart or just move.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

Sigh! Go back and read the reams of pages on this topic itself on why Jon didn’t execute Mance. Mance was not Jon’s prisoner to begin with. Jon saw Rattleshirt burn thinking it was Mance just like everyone else. When Mel does reveal to Jon that Mance is alive, there’s not much Jon can do. What do you expect him to do, fight Mel and perhaps even Stannis on it? Was he supposed to draw his sword and kill Mance on the spot? You only have a comparable argument with Slynt’s case if Mance was Jon’s prisoner and he commuted Mance’s sentence. But that’s not how events transpire in the books, now is it?

That is a deliberate twisting of the facts. Stannis/Mel did not burn Mance, correct, but they also pointed it out repeatedly that 'Rattleshirt' was now Jon's man. He was under his jurisdiction. Jon had any reason and any right (as he himself admits when he regrets not killing Mance immediately) to execute Mance as soon as he realized that Mance was still there.

And sure - Jon could also have put down Melisandre for what she did there. He doesn't know what she can do and might be stupid enough to think he can actually try to harm her and live. She committed a crime and Stannis is far away and might be killed by the Boltons. It wouldn't be advisable but he could have tried to do it.

But what he could have definitely done is pretty obvious: Call his men, arrest Mance, drag him outside, denounce Stannis Baratheon and his red whore as the liars they are, get himself a block and sever Mance's head from his shoulders. The man deserved it. It would have been the right thing to do. Just as it was the right thing to take the head of Rickard Karstark. Just as it would have been the right thing to punish Jaime and Tywin for the Sack and the murders of the children.

[Clegane'sPup]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One can agree there. But this is actually meaningless considering Slynt could have skinned Ned alive and made Jon watch - and Jon should still forget all of that after Slynt took the black.

Again, you sometimes scare me.  Where did the Slynt could have skinned Ned alive and made Jon watch  come from?

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Again, you sometimes scare me.  Where did the Slynt could have skinned Ned alive and made Jon watch  come from?

It was a way to illustrate that Jon should have ignored what Slynt did to his father because the man also said the words. The man participated in an execution. Jon can, perhaps, blame Joff for giving the order. But he cannot play a loyal adviser and servant of the king that he follows orders.

But as a brother at the Wall he should also ignore Slynt's actions even if the man had been the one deciding to cruelly murder Ned. Just as Jon should also treat Theon and Ramsay as his brothers should they ever take the black while he is there.

I mean, do we hear Aemon complain that he has to burden himself with the bastard of a man who played a crucial role in the downfall of his house and the murder and exile of all his relatives? Do we hear Aemon Targaryen tell Jon Snow what he might *really* think about Eddard Stark? What Ned Stark and his family could expect of him if he, Aemon Targaryen, suddenly became king? No, we don't. All we get is Aemon's admission that he was on the side of Aerys and Rhaegar when they were killed, and that he doesn't even remotely condemn his mad grandnephew. Instead he speaks of the poor grandson of his brother who was brutally murdered.

At times Jon is capable of keeping his mouth shut (he never asks Donal Noye which pretender he prefers) but not when his own family is concerned.

[kissdbyfire]

But he did ignore it, @Lord Varys, it's right there in the text.

I'm not only scared but confused as well. You are someone who takes everything so bloody literally, but then when the text is so very literal you choose to dismiss and ignore it. 

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It was a way to illustrate that Jon should have ignored what Slynt did to his father because the man also said the words. The man participated in an execution. Jon can, perhaps, blame Joff for giving the order. But he cannot play a loyal adviser and servant of the king that he follows orders.

But as a brother at the Wall he should also ignore Slynt's actions even if the man had been the one deciding to cruelly murder Ned. Just as Jon should also treat Theon and Ramsay as his brothers should they ever take the black while he is there.

I mean, do we hear Aemon complain that he has to burden himself with the bastard of a man who played a crucial role in the downfall of his house and the murder and exile of all his relatives? Do we hear Aemon Targaryen tell Jon Snow what he might *really* think about Eddard Stark? What Ned Stark and his family could expect of him if he, Aemon Targaryen, suddenly became king? No, we don't. All we get is Aemon's admission that he was on the side of Aerys and Rhaegar when they were killed, and that he doesn't even remotely condemn his mad grandnephew. Instead he speaks of the poor grandson of his brother who was brutally murdered.

At times Jon is capable of keeping his mouth shut (he never asks Donal Noye which pretender he prefers) but not when his own family is concerned.

 I gotta tell ya sometimes your shite frightens me.

[Rufus Snow]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But one assumes Slynt and Thorne were given command of CB by Cotter Pyke

Oh, does 'one'?

And why does 'one' assume that Pyke had the authority to do so? You know what they say about the word 'assume', right?

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon should still forget all of that after Slynt took the black.

Jon made a point to do that (ok, GRRM made the point, but you know, like, the author....) of passing over Slynt's past and STILL offering him a command position, yet Slynt couldn't overlook 'traitor's bastard'

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The man was stillborn. Jon Snow is still the boy when he decides to break his vows for Arya. One can only hope the zombie version will finally be a man.

Well, I don't really hold that the 'dead boy/birth of the man' thing happened in an instant, I think it was more drawn out, more of a tug-of-war that went more and more towards the new man over time. Birth can be a drawn out and painful process. And I think we should restirct ourselves to what was known at the instant that decisions were made. IIRC (and I may be wrong without another trawl of the chapter) when Slynt was snaffled out, fArya was still unknown at Castle Black.

[Rufus Snow]

Sometimes I'm glad that I don't live in the same country where some of these Slynties are going to grow up and eventually be allowed to vote

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, does 'one'?

And why does 'one' assume that Pyke had the authority to do so? You know what they say about the word 'assume', right?

Then I just take the non-action of the men at CB as confirmation that Slynt and Thorne's authority there was accepted? Did the blind maester prevent Slynt from throwing Jon in an ice cell? Did anyone who fought at Jon's side against the Magnar and Mance stop them? No. Did anyone stop them from sending Jon on his suicide mission? No.

That tells us that the people at CB recognized Slynt as their interrim commander. And he was the one commanding things, Thorne was deferring to him - which also tells us something considering that Thorne being the more experienced man and officer should have been in command if he, Thorne, had had a say in it. Which he apparently did not. And that implies that the men where send from Eastwatch to take command and restore order at CB.

By the way - nobody has given Stannis authority to interfere with the Watch, either. He just does it. 

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Jon made a point to do that (ok, GRRM made the point, but you know, like, the author....) of passing over Slynt's past and STILL offering him a command position, yet Slynt couldn't overlook 'traitor's bastard'.

I know that. I pointed out Jon's original accusation to Slynt to illustrate as to why Slynt may not have been willing to trust this 'traitor's bastard' - after all, would you trust a guy who accused of murdering your father when you were only following orders and, more importantly, were part of a military order where everything what you did was forgotten as soon as you joined it?

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, I don't really hold that the 'dead boy/birth of the man' thing happened in an instant, I think it was more drawn out, more of a tug-of-war that went more and more towards the new man over time. Birth can be a drawn out and painful process. And I think we should restirct ourselves to what was known at the instant that decisions were made. IIRC (and I may be wrong without another trawl of the chapter) when Slynt was snaffled out, fArya was still unknown at Castle Black.

I honestly think Jon tried to make a good start. But then he bumbled and failed. I'm also not sure whether this ridiculously hard-to-himself-shit of sending his friends away was necessary. I say this was stupidity. I mean Egg's best friend becomes his Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He doesn't send him off to some castle at the end of the world. You need your friends around you, not your enemies, when you want to rule in a world like this.

Jon didn't understand what Aemon's lesson was supposed to mean. A boy can afford to play, have fun, put his wife and children first. But a king has to set the Realm, his dynasty, and his people first, not his interests. And Jon really cannot do that. He knows what he should do but in the end he does the wrong thing. Granted, the situation at the Wall is harder, but it is still clear that Arya is no longer his concern as LC of the NW.