Aegon's attitude towards the Lannisters and the Baratheons?

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

What do you think?  Jon Con will be the voice of reason but another strong voice will come from Uncle Doran.  The Martells want Lannister blood.  Gregor murdered Elia and Rhaenys.  Robert killed his father.  Which is it?  Forgiveness.  Revenge.  

[Lord Lannister]

The Baratheons are pretty much a moot point for Aegon at this point. Other than his garrison at Storm's End, Stannis is literally off at the edge of the world. Assuming he takes Storm's End, he'll probably take a page out of Aegon the conqueror's book and gift it to a house that's loyal to him.

As for the Lannisters, they are fully invested in supporting Tommen who sits on his throne. With maybe the exception of Tyrion, who's also literally at another point on the edge of the world, they're the enemy to be destroyed. Not to mention the small detail that much of his support is going to stem out of hatred of the Lannisters rather than any desire for a Targaryen restoration.

[Lion of the West]

6 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

What do you think?  Jon Con will be the voice of reason but another strong voice will come from Uncle Doran.  The Martells want Lannister blood.  Gregor murdered Elia and Rhaenys.  Robert killed his father.  Which is it?  Forgiveness.  Revenge.  

Between JonCon and Doran Martell I think that Aegon is set on the path of tainting himself with so much blood that he will turn the people away from him and potentially force his enemies into a corner where cooperation despite mutal hatred is what they will get on with.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

3 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Between JonCon and Doran Martell I think that Aegon is set on the path of tainting himself with so much blood that he will turn the people away from him and potentially force his enemies into a corner where cooperation despite mutal hatred is what they will get on with.

JonCon and especially Doran Martell don't seem like the type to have Aegon go on some bloody warpath. Sure JonCon wants to end Roberts line and Doran wants the people that killed his sister dead but that's about it.

[Stormking902]

Jon Con and Faegon want the Lannisters destroyed other then that they have no REAL enemeies unless Stannis decides to leave the North and engage Faegon which we know he probabably wont be leaving the North alive ever again.

[Lion of the West]

39 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

JonCon and especially Doran Martell don't seem like the type to have Aegon go on some bloody warpath. Sure JonCon wants to end Roberts line and Doran wants the people that killed his sister dead but that's about it.

Really? Isn't that just what they are planning?

As I recall JonCon want the Baratheon kids dead, that's Tommen and Myrcella while it sounds to me like Doran wants to bath in Lannister blood and turn the Rock into a smoking ruin. That also sounds like something which will draw lots of blood as House Lannister is a large House. There will be plenty of unpleasant acts committed and a need for a butcherer, or two, if King Aegon will want this to be done.

28 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Jon Con and Faegon want the Lannisters destroyed other then that they have no REAL enemeies unless Stannis decides to leave the North and engage Faegon which we know he probabably wont be leaving the North alive ever again.

Define "real" enemies.

King Aegon's got enemies in all those people who have the Lannisters to thank for their gains and who have curried faovr with King Joffrey and then King Tommen. And most importantly, the Tyrells hold through King Tommen a number of seats at court. If King Tommen dies or is unseated then the Tyrells go straigh out back into the cold and in moves the Martells. The Tyrells will fight for their place behind the throne and not throw in the towel just because the going gets tough. They've done so before and I will expect them to do so gain.

[Stormking902]

12 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Really? Isn't that just what they are planning?

As I recall JonCon want the Baratheon kids dead, that's Tommen and Myrcella while it sounds to me like Doran wants to bath in Lannister blood and turn the Rock into a smoking ruin. That also sounds like something which will draw lots of blood as House Lannister is a large House. There will be plenty of unpleasant acts committed and a need for a butcherer, or two, if King Aegon will want this to be done.

Define "real" enemies.

King Aegon's got enemies in all those people who have the Lannisters to thank for their gains and who have curried faovr with King Joffrey and then King Tommen. And most importantly, the Tyrells hold through King Tommen a number of seats at court. If King Tommen dies or is unseated then the Tyrells go straigh out back into the cold and in moves the Martells. The Tyrells will fight for their place behind the throne and not throw in the towel just because the going gets tough. They've done so before and I will expect them to do so gain.

The Tyrells want one thing and thats Marg to marry a king and Maces grandchild to sit the Iron Throne, if Tommon dies which we as the reader know he will OR if Cersie has Marg murdered or imprisoned then Tyrells automatically turn back to Targ loyalists and becomes good friends of Faegon. 

[Lion of the West]

7 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

The Tyrells want one thing and thats Marg to marry a king and Maces grandchild to sit the Iron Throne, if Tommon dies which we as the reader know he will OR if Cersie has Marg murdered or imprisoned then Tyrells automatically turn back to Targ loyalists and becomes good friends of Faegon. 

No we don't know that.

If Margaery gets killed the Tyrells will want revenge on the guilty parties and if Tommen dies they become a bit awkward, provided they can't impregnate Maraerys and claim the child is Tommen's or if they can marry someone to Myrcella. But the idea that they just will roll back to become Targaryen loyalists seems very unlike them. I'm open to that they might support Aegon, or Danaerys, but I think that they'll be motivated primarily by other factors than loyalty to the Dragon. Thus I wouldn't call them Targaryen loyalists.

[Leo of House Cartel]

@James Fenimore Cooper XXII 

I think one element we must consider is how Aegon's view of the Lannisters, post-Westerosi-landing, will link up with the stories he heard about them whilst growing up. We can't say for sure if he has a Dany-style "they are all dogs and usurpers!" view in regards to the lions, but there is a strong possibility he shares such opinions as those of his aunt. 

I'd imagine Aegon has spent much of his youth hearing tales about "the power, wealth and influence of the mighty lions" as well as being warned about the dangers of messing with Tywin. Trouble is, the Lannisters are in a pretty shitty spot, and seem to be losing influence rather quickly.

After he has been in Westeros for a while, what will Young Griff think, when he realises most of these mosters from his childhood stories are dead? Tywin, Robert, Gregor, Amory Lorch, Eddard - all gone. Fair enough, Cersei certainly still has power, but with the sparrow uprising, her walk of atonement and dwindling public/polictal influence, there's a great chance that Aegon is recieved well by the public, making his quest for the IT even easier.

In that case, maybe Aegon will consider himself free of the need to avenge his family - with the aforementioned likes of Tywin and Lorch dead, all he really needs to do is bring down Cersei, and perhaps grant Casterly Rock to someone else.

He might not take to kindly to the undead corpse of his sister's killer walking around, but I'm sure a few GC soldiers with crossbows and long-axes could deal with such a situation.

As to Aegon's opinions of the stag - I believe Lysonno Maar has people back home in Lys who will bring Edric Storm over, to be a figurehead ruler of Storm's End on behalf of the Young Dragon.

Doran certainly wants revenge, but I think he'll be in a much better spot to reap that vengeance if Aegon is on the Throne with a (somewhat) stable realm. 

I reckon Doran's idea of revenge would be to take all power away from the Lannisters. At this point, Cersei is the only real Lannister political figure left who had any closeness to Tywin (Gemma and Lancel aren't really Tywin-level powerful when it comes to politics). 

Would the Prince of Dorne, who moves like the grass which hides the snake, really have reason to want a complete Lannister genocide?

Assuming Aegon is crowned King, I can't see the long-game-loving Prince Doran feeling the need to go after the remaining lions such as Gemma or Daven - they had no part in Elia's murder, and really, what point would it serve? I could see Doran advising his Kingly nephew that Jaime be trialed, or maybe young Tommen be warded in Dorne, but not a Robert Baratheon-esque "Kill all the members of a certain family, due to the decade old sins of someone else.

If Cersei's forces are defeated, I'd imagine she would be executed, if she survived Aegon's conquest, that is. Considering she is running around with a reanimated Gregor, who the IT tried to pass of as "dead for good" at the Dornish Sugar Skull Feast, I'd imagine Doran will be outraged (unless of course, Qyburn is working for the Dornish), and thus won't see much need for keeping Cersei alive.

That said, Casterly Rock has an awful lot of Gold - perhaps Aegon and Doran would see some use for Cersei in a marriage pact? Maybe a union with young Trystane, with the idea of making the lad Lord of Casterly Rock, only to have Cersei killed.

To be fair, all of this is assuming Aegon and Doran develop a healthy relationship. As Young Griff's only remaining blood-family in Westeros, the Martells should be welcome additions to the young pretender's cause. The trouble is, will any of the Martells/Sands fracture and betray each other in the haste to get the Perfect Prince on board?

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

One of the things that I didn't like about that plotline was the feeling that I never really knew who was in charge in their camp. Is it JC or Griff? I know Griff is young, but if he has been trained to be a prince on his way toward reclaiming his birthright I would think he'd be a little more of a commanding presence. I guess a little more Vicerys, but without the arrogant stupidity and cruelty.

Griff seems like a good kid, but we don't get much screen time with him. He's definitely been groomed correctly on the finer points, but meting justice after a conflict is over is the hardest part a king has to play. How to do it without restarting the conflict can be very delicate. Revenge may not be on the table for the good of the realm. It is here that the teaching, advice and agenda of his handlers will be tested. Will Griff become Aegon in his own right or remain all or partly Griff?

Me? I just hope he lives long enough to face the dragon test.

[The Commentator]

Jon Connington would counsel for leniency to everyone who bends the knee.  Doran is not going to be so easily satisfied.  He wants revenge.  Aegon will be caught between the two.  He might do a Jon Snow style revenge and kill them all to get back at the people who murdered his mother and his sister.  

[Stormking902]

6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@James Fenimore Cooper XXII 

I think one element we must consider is how Aegon's view of the Lannisters, post-Westerosi-landing, will link up with the stories he heard about them whilst growing up. We can't say for sure if he has a Dany-style "they are all dogs and usurpers!" view in regards to the lions, but there is a strong possibility he shares such opinions as those of his aunt. 

I'd imagine Aegon has spent much of his youth hearing tales about "the power, wealth and influence of the mighty lions" as well as being warned about the dangers of messing with Tywin. Trouble is, the Lannisters are in a pretty shitty spot, and seem to be losing influence rather quickly.

After he has been in Westeros for a while, what will Young Griff think, when he realises most of these mosters from his childhood stories are dead? Tywin, Robert, Gregor, Amory Lorch, Eddard - all gone. Fair enough, Cersei certainly still has power, but with the sparrow uprising, her walk of atonement and dwindling public/polictal influence, there's a great chance that Aegon is recieved well by the public, making his quest for the IT even easier.

In that case, maybe Aegon will consider himself free of the need to avenge his family - with the aforementioned likes of Tywin and Lorch dead, all he really needs to do is bring down Cersei, and perhaps grant Casterly Rock to someone else.

He might not take to kindly to the undead corpse of his sister's killer walking around, but I'm sure a few GC soldiers with crossbows and long-axes could deal with such a situation.

As to Aegon's opinions of the stag - I believe Lysonno Maar has people back home in Lys who will bring Edric Storm over, to be a figurehead ruler of Storm's End on behalf of the Young Dragon.

Doran certainly wants revenge, but I think he'll be in a much better spot to reap that vengeance if Aegon is on the Throne with a (somewhat) stable realm. 

I reckon Doran's idea of revenge would be to take all power away from the Lannisters. At this point, Cersei is the only real Lannister political figure left who had any closeness to Tywin (Gemma and Lancel aren't really Tywin-level powerful when it comes to politics). 

Would the Prince of Dorne, who moves like the grass which hides the snake, really have reason to want a complete Lannister genocide?

Assuming Aegon is crowned King, I can't see the long-game-loving Prince Doran feeling the need to go after the remaining lions such as Gemma or Daven - they had no part in Elia's murder, and really, what point would it serve? I could see Doran advising his Kingly nephew that Jaime be trialed, or maybe young Tommen be warded in Dorne, but not a Robert Baratheon-esque "Kill all the members of a certain family, due to the decade old sins of someone else.

If Cersei's forces are defeated, I'd imagine she would be executed, if she survived Aegon's conquest, that is. Considering she is running around with a reanimated Gregor, who the IT tried to pass of as "dead for good" at the Dornish Sugar Skull Feast, I'd imagine Doran will be outraged (unless of course, Qyburn is working for the Dornish), and thus won't see much need for keeping Cersei alive.

That said, Casterly Rock has an awful lot of Gold - perhaps Aegon and Doran would see some use for Cersei in a marriage pact? Maybe a union with young Trystane, with the idea of making the lad Lord of Casterly Rock, only to have Cersei killed.

To be fair, all of this is assuming Aegon and Doran develop a healthy relationship. As Young Griff's only remaining blood-family in Westeros, the Martells should be welcome additions to the young pretender's cause. The trouble is, will any of the Martells/Sands fracture and betray each other in the haste to get the Perfect Prince on board?

 

Lmao nothing would say F you Tywin more then a Martell leading house Lannister ahahah. 

[Lord Varys]

No indication Aegon gives a rat's ass about his dead relatives. He has never met them, why should he care? He will remove obstacles to his throne - which means the incest bastards and Stannis/Shireen are dead, if he ever lays his hands on them (or rather: the men are dead, the women could be married to strengthen his claim) but there is no indication his campaign is motivated to a large degree by a desire for vengeance.

And since the Baratheons are pretty much done, and the Lannisters about to fall (and the other branches not exactly all that close to Jaime/Cersei and their brood) there is little to no reason to assume that one cannot come to an understanding.

[asongofheresy]

Aegon doesn't talk about Baratheons but does talk about murder of Elia and Rhaenys at the hands of Lannisters - though even after learning who Tyrion is he saves him. So Aegon, Jon Connington aren't that vengeful in truth compared to Martells who I suspect will kill Tommen before Aegon decided to go to KL. 

[Jaak]

On 8/1/2018 at 6:58 AM, Lord Lannister said:

The Baratheons are pretty much a moot point for Aegon at this point. Other than his garrison at Storm's End, Stannis is literally off at the edge of the world. Assuming he takes Storm's End, he'll probably take a page out of Aegon the conqueror's book and gift it to a house that's loyal to him.

Taking that page involves sparing the life and inheritance of your enemy´s daughter. Happens that Myrcella Baratheon is betrothed to Trystane AND in Martell hands. Handing Storm´s End to Lord Protector Trystane and sparing Myrcella over Jon´ s objections is something Arianne can quite reasonably ask as price of Martell support, and Aegon grant.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Aegon already met a Lannister and he didn't have a problem with him, even after he found out who he was. He even went as far as to forbid Tyrion be thrown overboard after he saved his life. 

At the very least, he seems to separate the people who killed his family and those who had nothing to do with it. And he received his education from Haldon, so I'm assuming his thoughts on Ned Stark and others who took part in the rebellion may extend beyond the whole "usurper's dogs" label Viserys stuck them with. 

[The Sleeper]

On 8/1/2018 at 3:41 PM, LionoftheWest said:

Really? Isn't that just what they are planning?

As I recall JonCon want the Baratheon kids dead, that's Tommen and Myrcella while it sounds to me like Doran wants to bath in Lannister blood and turn the Rock into a smoking ruin. That also sounds like something which will draw lots of blood as House Lannister is a large House. There will be plenty of unpleasant acts committed and a need for a butcherer, or two, if King Aegon will want this to be done.

Define "real" enemies.

King Aegon's got enemies in all those people who have the Lannisters to thank for their gains and who have curried faovr with King Joffrey and then King Tommen. And most importantly, the Tyrells hold through King Tommen a number of seats at court. If King Tommen dies or is unseated then the Tyrells go straigh out back into the cold and in moves the Martells. The Tyrells will fight for their place behind the throne and not throw in the towel just because the going gets tough. They've done so before and I will expect them to do so gain.

I don't think Doran will be an issue. I don't see him as being particularly involved. Arianne and the Sand Snakes however are a different issue. I would also add the ambitions of the Golden Company, while Aegon's side seem inclined to pander to the Faith. So, on his side I expect a bitter dying man driven by hate, a ruthless spy master (who maybe among the ones who show the most restrain), a slaver, two maniacs (Tyenne and Nymeria), an ambitious older bride, ten thousand hungry sellswords and an army of religious fundamentalists. 

The Others might come as a blessed relief. 

[Lord Lannister]

23 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Taking that page involves sparing the life and inheritance of your enemy´s daughter. Happens that Myrcella Baratheon is betrothed to Trystane AND in Martell hands. Handing Storm´s End to Lord Protector Trystane and sparing Myrcella over Jon´ s objections is something Arianne can quite reasonably ask as price of Martell support, and Aegon grant.

That's a dang big price to ask. It's not unreasonable, but I'd have to think if that was granted a betrothal to Arianne would be off the table then. Though that might actually end up being better for Dorne. They'd get long term control over a second kingdom, and if Aegon's conquest fails, they might still be in a position to back out with something in tact.

[Lion of the West]

27 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I don't think Doran will be an issue. I don't see him as being particularly involved. Arianne and the Sand Snakes however are a different issue. I would also add the ambitions of the Golden Company, while Aegon's side seem inclined to pander to the Faith. So, on his side I expect a bitter dying man driven by hate, a ruthless spy master (who maybe among the ones who show the most restrain), a slaver, two maniacs (Tyenne and Nymeria), an ambitious older bride, ten thousand hungry sellswords and an army of religious fundamentalists. 

The Others might come as a blessed relief. 

Indeed. It could easily become very messy and dangerous as people pick sides, or tries to avoid having to do so.

[The Sleeper]

13 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Indeed. It could easily become very messy and dangerous as people pick sides, or tries to avoid having to do so.

Part of the problem is with Aegon himself, he came off really angry when thwarted. So, while things are relatively smooth he will probably be OK, but when he starts to face real obstacles... 

With Dany coming, I think back to Tyrion and his "advice" to Aegon. His mouth might be the most dangerous thing in the world.