How Should We Deal With Bigoted Comments Made By Celebrities When They Were Teens?

[MisterOJ]

I think context matters. 

I grew up in a small coal mining town in Eastern Kentucky. In my schools where I grew up, there were literally zero openly gay or black people. The only person in the whole school that wasn't white was a Lebanese kid whose dad was a doctor in town. I was one of his few friends in school. Even so, I was surrounded by people saying awful, racist and homophobic stuff ALL THE TIME. Sometimes I went along with it and joined in. Looking back at that through a lens of around 30 years of life experience since - I can't say for sure whether I believed that stuff or not. Maybe I did to some degree, but for the most part, it was stupid words said out of complete ignorance. If Twitter had been a thing then, there's a good chance I would have put something really stupid and ugly on there.

Unlike a lot of people who I graduated with, I got out and went to a big state school (the University of Kentucky) and was immediately put into direct contact with a lot of people who were not like me at all. I didn't hate or dislike any of them. I was kind of uncomfortable when I found out one of the friends I made freshman year was gay and had a crush on me. And I avoided him for a while after that, but wound up realizing it wasn't a big deal after all and we went back to hanging out and going bowling and whatnot. I learned and I grew and I became a better person. I don't think that's a bad thing. I'd hate to think that some of the terrible things I said when I was in junior high and high school came back to haunt me today. So, I can give others the benefit of the doubt for mistakes made in their youth too.

[Week]

40 minutes ago, MisterOJ said:

Unlike a lot of people who I graduated with, I got out and went to a big state school (the University of Kentucky) and was immediately put into direct contact with a lot of people who were not like me at all. I didn't hate or dislike any of them. I was kind of uncomfortable when I found out one of the friends I made freshman year was gay and had a crush on me. And I avoided him for a while after that, but wound up realizing it wasn't a big deal after all and we went back to hanging out and going bowling and whatnot. I learned and I grew and I became a better person. I don't think that's a bad thing. I'd hate to think that some of the terrible things I said when I was in junior high and high school came back to haunt me today. So, I can give others the benefit of the doubt for mistakes made in their youth too.

Mistakes may be made in youth -- excuses and apologies are now made by adults. People needed to have the ability, and interest, to convey your maturity and self-improvement in order to receive the benefit of the doubt.

Also to say, the whole "mistakes" is a euphemism for white people to not feel bad about the impact of what has been said or done. The intent of youthful indiscretions is largely irrelevant to the impact*.

*I'll grant "impact" of twittering 7+ years ago is low -- however, the failure of the apologies has certainly sharpened what had been blunted.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I agree with History's Greatest Monster, @MisterOJ. It takes a lot of courage to confront the mistakes of our past/youth and what you did was exactly what I was talking about before. It's not just about saying that bigotry is bad, but specifically saying why it's bad that helps an individual grown and learn.

5 hours ago, Week said:

Also to say, the whole "mistakes" is a euphemism for white people to not feel bad about the impact of what has been said or done. The intent of youthful indiscretions is largely irrelevant to the impact*.

This. Also, I heard a comment on the radio this week that sums it up well: White people are allowed to be kids longer than minorities, and the bar they have to meet to say they've overcome bigotry is far lower. 

[Theda Baratheon]

Quite hilariously - I remember bemoaning feminists when I was 14 on Facebook. I remember really hating on them and playing the whole “Im Not Like Other Girls” bullshit. I didn’t really totally grow up ok the Internet - I didn’t have a smart phone until I was about 17 or 18 but I am young enough that I did put some stupid stuff online that of COURSE I don’t believe now. I didn’t even really believe it then to be honest. I’d hate for people to find the dumb shit I said when I was 14 and use it against me now HOWEVER - that was the worst thing I said...I believe. I remember battling people against racism vehemently when I was a teenager, I never for one moment said or believed anything that could reasonably be used against me other than being  dumb insecure girl who said she didn’t like feminism lol. So I’m of two minds - one, it’s disturbing to sift through the thoughts of people from decades ago because we all say dumb shit when we’re kids - and on the other hand...some things are like...so bad that you have to think, even as a teen you thought/felt THAT? yikes...

but for the most part I think anything said as a young teenager should be taken with a grain of salt. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Quite hilariously - I remember bemoaning feminists when I was 14 on Facebook. I remember really hating on them and playing the whole “Im Not Like Other Girls” bullshit. I didn’t really totally grow up ok the Internet - I didn’t have a smart phone until I was about 17 or 18 but I am young enough that I did put some stupid stuff online that of COURSE I don’t believe now. I didn’t even really believe it then to be honest. I’d hate for people to find the dumb shit I said when I was 14 and use it against me now HOWEVER - that was the worst thing I said...I believe. I remember battling people against racism vehemently when I was a teenager, I never for one moment said or believed anything that could reasonably be used against me other than being  dumb insecure girl who said she didn’t like feminism lol. So I’m of two minds - one, it’s disturbing to sift through the thoughts of people from decades ago because we all say dumb shit when we’re kids - and on the other hand...some things are like...so bad that you have to think, even as a teen you thought/felt THAT? yikes...

but for the most part I think anything said as a young teenager should be taken with a grain of salt. 

First, I agree that it's totally lame to be combing through people's social media profiles from years ago. But second, what you described isn't really what I was talking about. We've all said things we regret. You should have seen my profile the day after Trump won and I was fighting with people while polishing off a 750 of whiskey. There were many apologies that had to be made afterwards (although everything I argued has been proven correctly, at least for the most part). And I really don't think we should kill white kids for posting a rap lyric with the N word in it. Lord knows I repeated Eminem and 50 Cent songs word for word when I was a kid. I was more talking about people who repeatedly used racial and homophobic slurs to attack and humiliate people. That requires a certain level of authentic contrition for forgiveness to be given. 

[Which Tyler]

Haven't read the thread yet; but my first thoughts are...

Pretty much the same rules as for creepy dating; so anything written before you were half current age +7  - it would be creepy (and none of my business) to date someone that age; it would be wrong to think that things said at that age reflect upon the person they now are. I'd probably then put a maximum of about a decade ago (social mores really do change that quickly; and indeed far quicker for individuals with self-realisation).
I will now go back and read the thread, and probably edit this as I'm swayed by someone's argument.

[DMC]

6 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Lord knows I repeated Eminem and 50 Cent songs word for word when I was a kid. I was more talking about people who repeatedly used racial and homophobic slurs to attack and humiliate people. That requires a certain level of authentic contrition for forgiveness to be given. 

Yeah I was definitely guilty of that growing up with Biggie/WuTang/Snoop etc., so I guess if they're just c+p lyrics whatever.  But even though I'm an Old Millenial, I've been on internet forums since I literally became a teenager, or 1998.  And while I certainly have sympathy for doing a lot of stupid things as a kid considering I was arrested three times before my 18th birthday, those stupid things never remotely entailed me using racial slurs (outside of singing along to the aforementioned) on the internet or otherwise.  One thing I was guilty of was using "gay" as a pejorative until a friend pointed that one out when I was in my sophomore year.

I loathe all of social media in general, so I can't answer how anyone "deals" with the upcoming generation that very stupidly grew up with a public and searchable profile, but it's hard for me to have any sympathy for even a teenager doing what you said - using slurs to attack and humiliate people.

[DMC]

8 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Also, I heard a comment on the radio this week that sums it up well: White people are allowed to be kids longer than minorities, and the bar they have to meet to say they've overcome bigotry is far lower. 

They're also allowed to be less susceptible to incarceration or being killed. 

Also, the "environment" factor doesn't really fly with me.  In my teen years I visited my uncle who owns a dairy around Lubbock, Texas every summer for two weeks.  My cousin is literally five days older than me so I would naturally hang out with all her friends.  Were there more racists and homophobes than my privileged liberal upbringing?  Sure.  But my cousin knew better, as did most of her friends.

[Theda Baratheon]

7 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

First, I agree that it's totally lame to be combing through people's social media profiles from years ago. But second, what you described isn't really what I was talking about. We've all said things we regret. You should have seen my profile the day after Trump won and I was fighting with people while polishing off a 750 of whiskey. There were many apologies that had to be made afterwards (although everything I argued has been proven correctly, at least for the most part). And I really don't think we should kill white kids for posting a rap lyric with the N word in it. Lord knows I repeated Eminem and 50 Cent songs word for word when I was a kid. I was more talking about people who repeatedly used racial and homophobic slurs to attack and humiliate people. That requires a certain level of authentic contrition for forgiveness to be given. 

Oh my apologies I didn’t really read through the thread - bit rude of me. I agree. If you’ve repeatedly used quite nasty derogatory language and someone has discovered it then it requires a bit more than “I was just a kid” I think. 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Oh my apologies I didn’t really read through the thread - bit rude of me.

Neither did I.  Don't think it's rude.  What's rude is Ty's way too long title.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:54 PM, larrytheimp said:

I'd say what's more important is just demonstrating change. 

To everyone else just saying "ah stupid youth" I'd say that the default position shouldn't be "oh you used to drop N-bombs regularly but now you don't, good job".  If you used to say fucked up shit maybe show everyone else that you don't actually believe it.  It's kind of hard to say "well I was young and dumb but I'm not really a racist" if you're just more subtle about it now.

I guess being so old that there is no record of the things I said affects my point of view.   I was also thinking more of the general topic question, rather than a specific incident. 

Using myself as an example, I can say without a doubt that the person I was at 15 and 19 were worlds apart.

I grew up, in a small(ish) town of 12,000, where there was one bi-racial girl, and not another person of color. Then I moved to a city of around 100,000, and still 95% (or more) white.  I can't remember if I ever used the n word when I was a young teen but it's possible (there's a sing-song thing they all used to say when two kids were fighting that comes to mind. I can't remember saying it myself, but I know I never criticized my siblings for saying it). Truth is, I didn't know the depths of the wrong in using it. I used a lot of other words to sound as cool as my friends too (like the c word).  So I take these things into account. (That was during the "angry" teen stage where you knew words were bad, but just didn't care---or even realize how bad)

Joining the army and widening my world view and exposure to people of many races and cultures did a whole lot to educate me. (I think for some college might do this as well).

I know without a doubt my view on inter-racial dating changed in under a year from "that's weird, why would she date him (because he's different from her)?" to complete acceptance (as in doing it on a regular basis myself).

I guess I just have a less cynical view of people changing from their teens. 

[Week]

Great thread in response to the "just words" and "it was so long ago" crews.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

People should mostly be dealt with according to how they are now, not how they were several years ago. Except of course when it comes to actual crimes for which they have not been held to account.

If you punish people for past behavior too much it diminishes the importance of how much people can grow, mature and change in the intervening years.

Particularly when it comes to teenage behaviour adult celebs should be cut a bit of slack.

[Larry of the Lawn]

17 hours ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

I guess being so old that there is no record of the things I said affects my point of view.   I was also thinking more of the general topic question, rather than a specific incident. 

Using myself as an example, I can say without a doubt that the person I was at 15 and 19 were worlds apart.

I grew up, in a small(ish) town of 12,000, where there was one bi-racial girl, and not another person of color. Then I moved to a city of around 100,000, and still 95% (or more) white.  I can't remember if I ever used the n word when I was a young teen but it's possible (there's a sing-song thing they all used to say when two kids were fighting that comes to mind. I can't remember saying it myself, but I know I never criticized my siblings for saying it). Truth is, I didn't know the depths of the wrong in using it. I used a lot of other words to sound as cool as my friends too (like the c word).  So I take these things into account. (That was during the "angry" teen stage where you knew words were bad, but just didn't care---or even realize how bad)

Joining the army and widening my world view and exposure to people of many races and cultures did a whole lot to educate me. (I think for some college might do this as well).

I know without a doubt my view on inter-racial dating changed in under a year from "that's weird, why would she date him (because he's different from her)?" to complete acceptance (as in doing it on a regular basis myself).

I guess I just have a less cynical view of people changing from their teens. 

I hear you.  I'm not saying people can't or don't change.  I'm certainly not the same person I was at age 14.  I just think that if some instance of this comes up later (if for example) an employer say finds a racist comment you made years ago) I don't think it's particularly unreasonable for them to ask you about it.  And in that situation I think the onus is on you to show that this isn't how you are anymore.   And obviously the 13 year old who one time posted on Twitter some racially insensitive joke they heard their aunt tell when she was drunk has a different burden of proof than say someone who ran a KKK Facebook page for four years.  One of those is closer to "I was young and stupid" than the other.

 

[lessthanluke]

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

I hear you.  I'm not saying people can't or don't change.  I'm certainly not the same person I was at age 14.  I just think that if some instance of this comes up later (if for example) an employer say finds a racist comment you made years ago) I don't think it's particularly unreasonable for them to ask you about it.  And in that situation I think the onus is on you to show that this isn't how you are anymore.   And obviously the 13 year old who one time posted on Twitter some racially insensitive joke they heard their aunt tell when she was drunk has a different burden of proof than say someone who ran a KKK Facebook page for four years.  One of those is closer to "I was young and stupid" than the other.

 

I mean I get what you are saying but I can barely remember what  I posted on facebook recently let alone 10 years ago. If someone asked me about a post I made when I was 19 (10 years ago) I'd be like I have no idea what I was thinking at that time.

[SeanF]

Most of us say rubbish as teenagers

[DMC]

14 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

I mean I get what you are saying but I can barely remember what  I posted on facebook recently let alone 10 years ago. If someone asked me about a post I made when I was 19 (10 years ago) I'd be like I have no idea what I was thinking at that time.

Neither would I, but that's not really the point.  Because however blackout I got, I never posted racial slurs (other than maybe the lyrics thing).  Over a decade ago I made quite the effort to delete my facebook profile because of doing dumb things when I was fucked up, but those things entailed stealing road signs and marking up friend's faces.  If you're in a social circle in which attacking people with racial slurs is encouraged, you're in the wrong social circle.  Can people change, especially from their teen years?  Of course.  But as has been said, the onus is on that individual to explain and prove it - and there are examples of that.

[Lord of Oop North]

Basically, teenagers are the worst of all the people. We have always known this - hence old people complaining and telling people to get off their lawns.

[Tears of Lys]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:01 PM, Lord of Oop North said:

Basically, teenagers are the worst of all the people. We have always known this - hence old people complaining and telling people to get off their lawns.

This.  And I'd go even farther and say that human beings come into this world as selfish savages.  The innocence of youth is more like just plain "ignorance" of youth.  Through necessity, I suppose, we start out believing ourselves to be the center of the universe and anyone else is just there to serve us, or are totally unimportant and not worthy of our attention.   To put another's feelings, safety, well-being before our own does not come naturally to us as human beings.  It takes a combination of time, learning by watching examples, learning through repercussions for bad behavior, and a whole lotta other things to turn a young human creature into a civilized human being worthy of the name.  (Unfortunately, a large number never do manage to make the transition.)

Of course, there are exceptions, but they're extremely rare.   That there are any at all makes me want to believe in reincarnation.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I was bullied by many students in primary school and I really have hard time forgetting that and I would held them against it even today, since main reason why I was bullied was my mental illness. During the school I hoped for some of them to be more friendly towards me, but now I realized I was being stupid ass and that I would like to ignore them as they did me.

In high school one of my colleges said that she would be really offended if what she and her boyfriend had (I don't know if she still dating that guy) had the same name as what gays have/had - that was during Croatian marriage equality refferendum. I saw her later and I couldn't stop thinking about what she said (the line above).

Hope gay is OK term for saying, I always thought gay is OK, but above post may point otherwise. I'm OK with homosexuality and think it's equal to hetersexuality.

Point I was trying to made - it depends on case from case.... you really can't force people to do full apology just to show they are not thinking it anymore - you'll never ever know. I was real stupid when I was kid and teenager, and as time gone pass I beecome more lucid and smarter (I was liberal before 18 birthday). I'm 24 now....