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Euron III Greyjoy

What happened to the Targaryen slaves?

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Before anyone says so, yes I know that this question doesn't have an actual answer. Maybe we will find out about it in 'Fire and Blood' when it gets released, but until then I'm curious on your speculations. 

We know that Aenar Targaryen along with his family, wealth and dragons also brought his slaves with him to Dragonstone from Valyria. What do you think happened to them? Do you think that once that generation of slaves died they only used peasants? Did they make slaves mate with each other to make more slaves? Did they only stop using slaves when Aegon took Westeros? 

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The turning of the masts of the ships into statues of the Seven suggests to me at least an attempt to appear to embrace the faith of the majority of their subjects, and if so, it seems to me that one of the obvious steps to take would be to emancipate the slaves in accordance to the teachings of the religion.

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40 minutes ago, Ran said:

The turning of the masts of the ships into statues of the Seven suggests to me at least an attempt to appear to embrace the faith of the majority of their subjects, and if so, it seems to me that one of the obvious steps to take would be to emancipate the slaves in accordance to the teachings of the religion.

Maybe sell them to pirates when no one was looking ; )

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The Targaryans had both a sept of the seven and a place with a heart tree firstmen could go to prey long before Aegons invasion suggesting they most certainly did not have slaves, not to mention it would upset the nobility of Westeros for no reason but with dragons in your possession did it really matter?. 

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Having slaves on Dragonstone wouldn't make any sense for them. Taking over the island gave them a population of smallfolk to use economically and for servitude, they no longer needed slaves to work the land etc. Keeping their slaves as just that would only piss everyone else off. What I find more interesting is how much of the aforementioned actions of building a Sept were just face value. We know that Visenya conducted a traditional wedding for Maegor and his second wife, so obviously knowledge of Valyrian religious customs and ritual were still being passed down generations later. How active were the Targaryens in maintaining their own culture in the face of Westerosi assimilation?

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The Targaryens gave up many Valyrian practices and customs.  Some which could have brought them increased wealth and power.  Just to list a few:

  1. Forging of Valyrian steel weapons.
  2. Slavery
  3. Polygamy
  4. Valyrian gods

Valyria had become like Sodom and Gomorrah.  Aenar tried to save as many as he could and his warning fell on deaf ears.  The Targaryens wanted to leave Valyria behind to create a better world.  And naturally to save themselves.  Aenar brought slaves with him to Dragonstone because he wanted to save them from the doom.  He could have sold them for profit but he chose to take them to safety with his own family.  He could not leave them behind to die.  Giving them freedom was not an option because the other families would simply capture them perhaps send them to the mines.  Aenar did the right thing.  He wanted to give up slavery but could not simply release the ones his family had owned.  He took them to Dragonstone and the Targaryens cared for them until they lived their natural lives.  They were not replaced.  So the Targaryens gave up slavery and it ended for good when the last one died.  

Edited by Mordred

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5 hours ago, Ran said:

The turning of the masts of the ships into statues of the Seven suggests to me at least an attempt to appear to embrace the faith of the majority of their subjects, and if so, it seems to me that one of the obvious steps to take would be to emancipate the slaves in accordance to the teachings of the religion.

Hm. How many of the Dragonstonians were not Valyrian would depend on how many people of Westerosi stock lived on the island and how many the Valyrians and later Aenar brought with them from the Lands of the Long Summer.

Considering there is already a sept on Dragonstone when the Conquest begins, one assumes the statues of the Seven were made at sometime between Aenar and Aerion, presumably around the time the Targaryens were starting to become more and more invested in the Seven Kingdoms.

One assumes Gaemon and Aegon may have been more traditional Valyrians but Maegon and Aerys and Aerys' sons may have turned towards Westeros more than Essos.

As to the slaves:

Could be that they just disappeared at one point during the wars of the Century of Blood. Gaemon the Glorious must have played some role in that era (you are not called 'the Glorious' if you completely stayed out of the wars in your immediate neighborhood). Perhaps they struck a deal with Braavos at one point? Or with Westerosi neighbors? Or it was a much more mundane reason - like there was not a lot of work for slaves on the island, or small reasons to use slaves when you could use the smallfolk of the island.

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Aenar brought his entire household.  That would include his serving men and women.  He brought slaves but I think Mordred is right about why Aenar Targaryen did it.  He did it to save them.   

On 8/1/2018 at 7:21 PM, Mordred said:

The Targaryens gave up many Valyrian practices and customs.  Some which could have brought them increased wealth and power.  Just to list a few:

  1. Forging of Valyrian steel weapons.
  2. Slavery
  3. Polygamy
  4. Valyrian gods

Valyria had become like Sodom and Gomorrah.  Aenar tried to save as many as he could and his warning fell on deaf ears.  The Targaryens wanted to leave Valyria behind to create a better world.  And naturally to save themselves.  Aenar brought slaves with him to Dragonstone because he wanted to save them from the doom.  He could have sold them for profit but he chose to take them to safety with his own family.  He could not leave them behind to die.  Giving them freedom was not an option because the other families would simply capture them perhaps send them to the mines.  Aenar did the right thing.  He wanted to give up slavery but could not simply release the ones his family had owned.  He took them to Dragonstone and the Targaryens cared for them until they lived their natural lives.  They were not replaced.  So the Targaryens gave up slavery and it ended for good when the last one died.  

 

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I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I think we can safely assume that it was relatively benign.  Even after the Doom, it seems like there was no animosity between Braavos and the Targs.  We know that Balerion was the only one of Aenar's Dragons that lived until the conquest.  The Braavosi might have had a window to attack the Targs and vice/versa.

Later, Egon and Braavos both fought against  Volantis.

We also have no complaints from the Faith regarding Targ slaving post doom.

My own guess would be that when Aenar arrived on Dragostone abandoned chattel slavery in favor of something similar to thralldom on the Iron Islands.  As many posters above have pointed out, Aenar might not have been able to free his own slaves without fear of them being recaptured, but maybe he could let their children be born free?

Or maybe, he let some of them "sneak" off to Braavos?

It's an interesting question.

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7 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I think we can safely assume that it was relatively benign.  Even after the Doom, it seems like there was no animosity between Braavos and the Targs.  We know that Balerion was the only one of Aenar's Dragons that lived until the conquest.  The Braavosi might have had a window to attack the Targs and vice/versa.

Later, Egon and Braavos both fought against  Volantis.

We also have no complaints from the Faith regarding Targ slaving post doom.

My own guess would be that when Aenar arrived on Dragostone abandoned chattel slavery in favor of something similar to thralldom on the Iron Islands.  As many posters above have pointed out, Aenar might not have been able to free his own slaves without fear of them being recaptured, but maybe he could let their children be born free?

Or maybe, he let some of them "sneak" off to Braavos?

It's an interesting question.

We can be sure Aenar took them to Dragonstone for their own safety.  Either he gave them the choice to leave later on or they died of old age on Dragonstone.   Some maybe made it to Braavos and settled there.   

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On 8/2/2018 at 2:21 AM, Mordred said:

The Targaryens gave up many Valyrian practices and customs.  Some which could have brought them increased wealth and power.  Just to list a few:

  1. Forging of Valyrian steel weapons.

I´m sure the´d have kept that if they could. Valyrian steel was expensive even in Old Valyria - it is not clear that Targaryens as a minor dragonlord family ever could forge them, rather than buy.

On 8/2/2018 at 2:21 AM, Mordred said:
  1. Slavery
  2. Polygamy

Polygamy had not been Targaryen custom before Aegon.

On 8/2/2018 at 2:21 AM, Mordred said:
  1. Valyrian gods

Valyria had become like Sodom and Gomorrah.  Aenar tried to save as many as he could and his warning fell on deaf ears.  The Targaryens wanted to leave Valyria behind to create a better world.  And naturally to save themselves.  Aenar brought slaves with him to Dragonstone because he wanted to save them from the doom.  He could have sold them for profit but he chose to take them to safety with his own family.  He could not leave them behind to die.  Giving them freedom was not an option because the other families would simply capture them perhaps send them to the mines. 

Um?

Vogorro´s Whore stayed free and kept the proceeds from the sale of her palace.

Valyrian colonies that had slavery honoured freeing slaves by legal act of owner. Had Aenar chosen to dump his slaves at Volantis, Lys, Tyrosh, Myr or Pentos, all of which he would have sailed past on his way Valyria to Dragonstone, the freedmen would have been safe from both Doom and reenslavement. He chose not to do so.

On 8/2/2018 at 2:21 AM, Mordred said:

Aenar did the right thing.  He wanted to give up slavery but could not simply release the ones his family had owned.  He took them to Dragonstone and the Targaryens cared for them until they lived their natural lives.  They were not replaced.  So the Targaryens gave up slavery and it ended for good when the last one died.  

They somehow had to be replaced by Westerosi-type smallfolk servants, who had a legal option to leave.

The most likely possibility is that they became smallfolk by manumission.

The question is - when?

They probably had done so by time of Aegon.

But when precisely?

All together, at the time of Aenar?

All together, at the time of Aegon, shortly before Conquest?

All together at some occasion between Aenar and Aegon?

Or gradually, by individual manumissions over long time from Aenar to Aegon?

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On 8/3/2018 at 5:39 PM, Princess Daenerys said:

Aenar brought his entire household.  That would include his serving men and women.  He brought slaves but I think Mordred is right about why Aenar Targaryen did it.  He did it to save them.   

 

He did bring his household and his wealth.  He also brought his bannermen along, the Celtigars, Velaryons.  

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23 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

He did bring his household and his wealth.  He also brought his bannermen along, the Celtigars, Velaryons.

At least the Velaryons had been there before.

Edited by The Wondering Wolf

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On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:52 PM, EloImFizzy said:

Before anyone says so, yes I know that this question doesn't have an actual answer. Maybe we will find out about it in 'Fire and Blood' when it gets released, but until then I'm curious on your speculations. 

We know that Aenar Targaryen along with his family, wealth and dragons also brought his slaves with him to Dragonstone from Valyria. What do you think happened to them? Do you think that once that generation of slaves died they only used peasants? Did they make slaves mate with each other to make more slaves? Did they only stop using slaves when Aegon took Westeros? 

See Orys Baratheon .

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On 8/7/2018 at 7:21 AM, The Pink Letter said:

He did bring his household and his wealth.  He also brought his bannermen along, the Celtigars, Velaryons.  

yes

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I would imagine that they'd have to start paying them. It's that or they lived out their service until they passed away and were eventually phased out.

 :dunno:

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On 8/1/2018 at 8:21 PM, Mordred said:

Aenar brought slaves with him to Dragonstone because he wanted to save them from the doom. 

That is so cute... and wrong too. 

Slaved persons are property. They aren't seen as subjects but as objects. Taking their slaves with them was simply a means to mantaining their own lifes. The reproductions of their existence, then, depended on slave labour. If Aenar was at all preocupied with the slaved people to the degree your comment suggests he would have had a moral problem with slavery, which he obviously didn't. 

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On 8/1/2018 at 8:04 PM, Ran said:

The turning of the masts of the ships into statues of the Seven suggests to me at least an attempt to appear to embrace the faith of the majority of their subjects, and if so, it seems to me that one of the obvious steps to take would be to emancipate the slaves in accordance to the teachings of the religion.

Not necessarily. Christianity - which Faith of the Seven is based on - is very strictly against slavery, yet in early Middle Ages there were slaves in both Western Europe and Roman (Byzantine) Empire. So the fact that the Seven is against slavery doesn't even mean that there is no slavery in Westeros, let alone that Targaryens will have abandoned it pronto.

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Posted (edited)

@Aldarion

Christianity was not opposed to slavery, even of other Christians, from the get-go. It was a gradual development, and there was as much supporting the institution in the bible as was opposed to it.

But the Andals were opposed to slavery from the get-go (at least in relation to their arrival in Westeros), and so that has been the position of the Faith for thousands of years. It's a rather different thing.

Edited by Ran

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