North South inter-marriage/religion prior Conquest

[Shrykos]

Forgive my lack of a detailed starting point, but I haven't got my WOIAF with me at the moment.

I was just thinking about the fact Ned constructed a Sept for Cat. So we know a Sept has not existed at Winterfell for a very long time (I can't remember if a character says its the first ever, but with such a long history, I'm sure if one had been built a couple of thousand years ago, no one would remember), if ever. This could mean two things, that A. there hasn't been a large enough population of the Faith to justify the construction of one, or that every Lord/King prior to Ned has denied/not thought about it. Or B, the Stark's haven't married into a Southern house before.

The religion of the Old Gods is by no means the bastion of tolerance, but they are generally speaking a little more relaxed. So it doesn't seem unreasonable that other Lord/Kings wouldn't have really cared if a southern spouse wanted a place to worship as long as they acted in the correct northern way. So do we infer that prior to not only Targaryen conquest, but the marriage between Ned and Cat that no southern Lady or Princess had been sent to marry The King/Warden of the North? Or accept its a muddy bit of history?

If this is me being blindly ignorant and missing something please correct me!

[Lord Varys]

Since there were plenty of Stark-Manderly marriages after the Conquest (and likely also before) in addition to marriages involving Royces there is no reason to assume Cat was the first Lady of Winterfell to follow the Seven.

[Frey Kings]

1 hour ago, Florys The Fox said:

Forgive my lack of a detailed starting point, but I haven't got my WOIAF with me at the moment.

I was just thinking about the fact Ned constructed a Sept for Cat. So we know a Sept has not existed at Winterfell for a very long time (I can't remember if a character says its the first ever, but with such a long history, I'm sure if one had been built a couple of thousand years ago, no one would remember), if ever. This could mean two things, that A. there hasn't been a large enough population of the Faith to justify the construction of one, or that every Lord/King prior to Ned has denied/not thought about it. Or B, the Stark's haven't married into a Southern house before.

The religion of the Old Gods is by no means the bastion of tolerance, but they are generally speaking a little more relaxed. So it doesn't seem unreasonable that other Lord/Kings wouldn't have really cared if a southern spouse wanted a place to worship as long as they acted in the correct northern way. So do we infer that prior to not only Targaryen conquest, but the marriage between Ned and Cat that no southern Lady or Princess had been sent to marry The King/Warden of the North? Or accept its a muddy bit of history?

If this is me being blindly ignorant and missing something please correct me!

From the Ruling line they married the Blackwoods, Lorra Royce, Jeyne Westerling.

Sansa Stark married Tyrion Lannister. They sen't Stark women to marry into House Royce and House Rogers from the Stormlands. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Since there were plenty of Stark-Manderly marriages after the Conquest (and likely also before) in addition to marriages involving Royces there is no reason to assume Cat was the first Lady of Winterfell to follow the Seven.

I think Manderlys are more tolerant of tree gods since they rule over tree god worshipping folks.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

I think Manderlys are more tolerant of tree gods since they rule over tree god worshipping folks.

Cat is tolerant of the old gods, too. Everybody is pretty tolerant of the old gods considering they still have godswoods in pretty much every castle.

But the point was about a sept at Winterfell - and a Manderly as Lady Stark (or Queen in the North, before the Conquest) might very well have had the wish to have a sept for the practice of her personal faith and services. Whether such septs ever existed is unknown, but if they did not it would seem that the Starks weren't the not-so-tolerant ones and not the followers of the Seven.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Starks allowed sept in White Harbor and that shows how tolerable they are to other religions.

I don't think that it is a good idea to build a sept in Winterfell for single lady. These Royce-Manderly marriages didn't cause Starks to lose their true roots. At least, Robb and Bran didn't show any interest to Seven.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Florys The Fox said:

Forgive my lack of a detailed starting point, but I haven't got my WOIAF with me at the moment.

I was just thinking about the fact Ned constructed a Sept for Cat. So we know a Sept has not existed at Winterfell for a very long time (I can't remember if a character says its the first ever, but with such a long history, I'm sure if one had been built a couple of thousand years ago, no one would remember), if ever. This could mean two things, that A. there hasn't been a large enough population of the Faith to justify the construction of one, or that every Lord/King prior to Ned has denied/not thought about it. Or B, the Stark's haven't married into a Southern house before.

The religion of the Old Gods is by no means the bastion of tolerance, but they are generally speaking a little more relaxed. So it doesn't seem unreasonable that other Lord/Kings wouldn't have really cared if a southern spouse wanted a place to worship as long as they acted in the correct northern way. So do we infer that prior to not only Targaryen conquest, but the marriage between Ned and Cat that no southern Lady or Princess had been sent to marry The King/Warden of the North? Or accept its a muddy bit of history?

If this is me being blindly ignorant and missing something please correct me!

I don't see why they would need to build a sept for Catelyn if there was already one in Winterfell. So my guess is that this was the first time the Faith of the Seven had entered the Stark's ancient stronghold, and likely Chayle and Mordane were the first septon and septa to reside there.

But Catelyn is unique in another key way: she is apparently the first Andal to birth a Lord of Winterfell. The only other Andal Starks that I can see are:

-- Jeyne Manderly, who married Rickon Stark, son of Cregan. Rickon died before Cregan, though, so he was never lord, and they only had two daughters; and.

-- Myriam Manderly, who married Lord Rodwell Stark, but they had no children.

The only other southerners in the line were a few Royces and Blackwoods, both First Men houses. Other than that, it's a long list of Karstarks, Lockes, Flints, etc.

So I still can't help wondering if the fact that both potential Lords of Winterfell, Robb and Bran, contain Andal blood somehow upset the old gods (aka, the CotF), perhaps triggering the long summer and eventual re-awakening of the Others? I dunno.

[The Sunland Lord]

19 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Starks allowed sept in White Harbor and that shows how tolerable they are to other religions.

I don't think that it is a good idea to build a sept in Winterfell for single lady. These Royce-Manderly marriages didn't cause Starks to lose their true roots. At least, Robb and Bran didn't show any interest to Seven.

Bran showed interest in being a knight, which is directly connected with the Seven. But prob he didn't have an idea about it really so I guess you're right. Ironically he becomes like the most powerful medium of the Old Gods ever.

As to the OP, it's most likely an uncovered history. I don't think thay every Stark generation since the Andal presence cared so much to forbid building a Sept or something that radical.

Although if I remember correctly, when the Manderlys came in the North, the King "let them worship their New Gods but took their gold". It sounds like sort of a compensation. Or it's just a price for the Manderlys to pay for their future as Northerners.

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Starks allowed sept in White Harbor and that shows how tolerable they are to other religions.

White Harbor is not Winterfell. It is not nice to demand of your wife that she forsake/no longer worship her own gods in favor of yours. And presumably that is what happened when the Starks married all those women who, most likely, did not follow the old gods.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But Catelyn is unique in another key way: she is apparently the first Andal to birth a Lord of Winterfell.

The Tullys are, originally, a First Men house.

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The only other Andal Starks that I can see are:

-- Jeyne Manderly, who married Rickon Stark, son of Cregan. Rickon died before Cregan, though, so he was never lord, and they only had two daughters; and.

-- Myriam Manderly, who married Lord Rodwell Stark, but they had no children.

The only other southerners in the line were a few Royces and Blackwoods, both First Men houses.

That distinction is quite odd, actually. The Blackwoods are the only ones who still keep the old gods - but the Tullys, the Manderlys, and the Royces are all originally First Men houses who took the Seven. And thus it is odd that their Stark husbands apparently did not build septs for them and forced them to worship their gods in private - or even to publicly denounce the Seven and only follow the old gods in the future.

One has to keep in mind that while religious life revolves around the Seven in the south the old gods are not gone. Their godswoods are still there, the ancient First Men heroes live on in songs and stories, and vows, oaths, promises, declarations are made in the name of the old gods and the new. They are pretty inclusive there.

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So I still can't help wondering if the fact that both potential Lords of Winterfell, Robb and Bran, contain Andal blood somehow upset the old gods (aka, the CotF), perhaps triggering the long summer and eventual re-awakening of the Others? I dunno.

That makes no sense in light of the fact that they would have inherited such blood from the Blackwoods, Royces, and Manderlys they married in the past. After all, those houses (while First Men in origin) had intermarried with Andal houses for hundreds of years.

[Damon_Tor]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And thus it is odd that their Stark husbands apparently did not build septs for them and forced them to worship their gods in private

Strong suspicion: taking the Seven and renouncing the Old Gods was a requirement for their continuing existence as the Andals took over.

[Angel Eyes]

Royces have converted to the Andals, all three of Bronze Yohn’s sons are knights. 

Offhand, what gods do the Vale Mountain Clans worship? Do they worship the Old Gods? Or do they have their own gods that they worship? 

[Universal Sword Donor]

46 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Royces have converted to the Andals, all three of Bronze Yohn’s sons are knights. 

Offhand, what gods do the Vale Mountain Clans worship? Do they worship the Old Gods? Or do they have their own gods that they worship? 

It depends. Burned Men worshipped a fire god with a dragon (possibly Nettles) but I'd assume most of them keep to the old gods, if they worship any gods at all

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Strong suspicion: taking the Seven and renouncing the Old Gods was a requirement for their continuing existence as the Andals took over.

Not sure what you mean by that. We are talking Stark wives, nor Andal wives. Or do you mean the Starks forced their women to abandon the Seven when they married them?

That might be - but if it was then this reflects badly on the Starks.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Community needs sept. There is no need to build sept for Lady Starks unless she brings to Winterfell enough companions to use it. Barristan Selmy didn't need sept to worship the Warrior in Meeren. Also we know that there was a period in Winterfell when women ruled the North (She-wolves of Winterfell, one of them being Royce). If Lady Royce wanted she could persuade his son to build SEPT.

Beside it, we can't criticize Starks about the Seven when there is no single house in the North that was converted to Seven. Even Blackwoods didn't change their religion in the Riverlands but they still got Aegon IV and Egg. 

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Community needs sept. There is no need to build sept for Lady Starks unless she brings to Winterfell enough companions to use it. Barristan Selmy didn't need sept to worship the Warrior in Meeren. Also we know that there was a period in Winterfell when women ruled the North (She-wolves of Winterfell, one of them being Royce). If Lady Royce wanted she could persuade his son to build SEPT.

A Queen in the North and Lady of Winterfell would have brought her own ladies, retainers, servants, etc. with her.

9 minutes ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Beside it, we can't criticize Starks about the Seven when there is no single house in the North that was converted to Seven. Even Blackwoods didn't change their religion in the Riverlands but they still got Aegon IV and Egg. 

I actually expect Betha Blackwood to be forced to also visit the sept and honor the Seven in addition to the old gods. The Targaryens follow the Seven and they act as Defenders of the Faith since the days of Jaehaerys I. It doesn't seem to be likely to me that she could put her private beliefs before her duty as queen. Or if she did, it would have been another scandal/conflict in the reign of Aegon V.