Jump to content
Frey Kings

The Orginal purpose for the crypts in Winterfell was a fortress

Recommended Posts

Apparently its much bigger than the entire castle. And Brandon the builder didn't build the WF castle. Only the crypts. As we know, old customs die hard. So they continued to bury their dead there. Only the "Kings of Winter". IIRC Brandon or House Stark weren't Kings (yet). I forgot what he built above the grounds, but it was a single building. 

But isn't it puzzling that no one bothered to look around further into the collapsed or harder places of the crypts for generations? I think Brandon may have left a significant hint. Besides dragon's eggs. 

 

Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brandon built strongholds:

Storm's end

The Wall

Hightower

Crypts of WF

 

Also, Brandon's daughter was there with her Bael's bastard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

I assumed he built WF as well, if he only built the crypt as you say, I would say its def hiding a few secrets. 

Yea he just built something insignificant on the grounds above. The later generations added and expanded stuff. Like GARGOYLES.

The WF of today was rebuilt and expanded countless times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It had to be a natural formation.  An underground cave that was there before the castle was built.  Excavation on that scale in a land that freezes for significant parts of the year is no easy task.  The builders built on top of the cave and made use of it to store their dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Mordred said:

It had to be a natural formation.  An underground cave that was there before the castle was built.  Excavation on that scale in a land that freezes for significant parts of the year is no easy task.  The builders built on top of the cave and made use of it to store their dead.

I would think that one of BtB main reasons for exploring/excavating was to discover and harness the geothermal energy there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I have teased in other threads (I'm slowly working on a lengthy essay on this very subject), I would bet a thousand dollars there is an albino female greenseer in the crypts, enthroned like BR in the roots of the WF weirwood, absorbing the souls of all the Starks buried there. WF was in fact built as a fortress... to protect the heart tree... to protect HER.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mordred said:

It had to be a natural formation.  An underground cave that was there before the castle was built.  Excavation on that scale in a land that freezes for significant parts of the year is no easy task.  The builders built on top of the cave and made use of it to store their dead.

Woah. Makes a lot of sense. What do you think the purpose of the Excavating was for?

And the Starks continued the practice of burying their dead kings because of the old ways

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bran does compare Winterfell to a monstrous stone tree with roots sunk deep into the earth. The dead Blackwood weirwood is supposed to turn to stone in a thousand years. 

The fact that Bran opened his third eye while he was hiding away in the crypts and managed to connect with Jon who was far beyond the Wall speaks to whatever power exists there, below the ground. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

I would think that one of BtB main reasons for exploring/excavating was to discover and harness the geothermal energy there.

Interesting why geothermal energy ?

I'd say Perhaps the influence and magical properties of the COTF and the natural elements. Because COTF seems to like rocks as much trees. As they carved on  them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Frey Kings said:

Interesting why geothermal energy ?

I'd say Perhaps the influence and magical properties of the COTF and the natural elements. Because COTF seems to like rocks as much trees. As they carved on  them.

WF is warmed by geothermal energy and its greenhouses powered by it. It would be reasonable to assume that BtB had bigger plans for WF, but after finding the larger structures underground and source of the hot springs there he didn't have enough years in one lifetime to get much done above ground. He left that for later generations to complete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Woah. Makes a lot of sense. What do you think the purpose of the Excavating was for?

And the Starks continued the practice of burying their dead kings because of the old ways

The purpose of the entire COTF/Others network of underground caves/tunnels was very possibly a defense against dragons. Asoiaf is very much inspired by the Vietnam War, like all GRRM's writing, and the north Vietnamese built extensive underground bunkers to withstand the American airstrikes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The purpose of the entire COTF/Others network of underground caves/tunnels was very possibly a defense against dragons. Asoiaf is very much inspired by the Vietnam War, like all GRRM's writing, and the north Vietnamese built extensive underground bunkers to withstand the American airstrikes.

I would not think so.  The ancients took advantage of something they found useful.  The statues and monuments to the dead came later, after the castle was erected.

Edited by The Lord of the Crossing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/1/2018 at 8:04 PM, Trefayne said:

I would think that one of BtB main reasons for exploring/excavating was to discover and harness the geothermal energy there.

Maybe this.  The castle was erected to take advantage of the hot spring and the underground caverns.  The castle was made by man.  The caverns and the hot springs were made by nature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I would not think so.  The ancients took advantage of something they found useful.  The statues and monuments to the dead came later, after the castle was erected.

But took advantage for what purpose? Why live permanently underground, as the COTF and Others do? I'm not saying they excavated the earth from scratch, but it is strange for humans to choose to live underground, and both the COTF and the Others are for all intents and purposes human. Yes the caverns and hot springs were probably natural formations, but it was likely the COTF who connected the various caverns and caves all over Westeros to create the existing network we have been told about by characters like Ygritte.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But took advantage for what purpose? Why live permanently underground, as the COTF and Others do? I'm not saying they excavated the earth from scratch, but it is strange for humans to choose to live underground, and both the COTF and the Others are for all intents and purposes human. Yes the caverns and hot springs were probably natural formations, but it was likely the COTF who connected the various caverns and caves all over Westeros to create the existing network we have been told about by characters like Ygritte.

My take on this: initially for the Long Night, afterwards for the harshest winters. We already see similar uses of underground passages and living areas in Mole Town and Castle Black. I think many of the petty kingdoms that rose after the Long Night were centered around CotF caves that sheltered them from the worst effects of Winter.

In BR's cave the CoTF and Bran's team are sheltered from the cold, have running water, fish, space to breed animals and are hidden/protected from raiders. They are similar to Fallout's vaults

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The oldest structure above ground is the First Keep (which maesters say was built after the Andals arrived, because it's a round drum tower) situated near the entrance to the crypts. Obviously maesters choose to plug in whatever dates are convenient for them, uh Storm's End is round.

There's is (I think) only one mention of a spiral staircase that goes deeper into the crypts, but has been blocked by debris or what looks like a cave in. 

I thought (and have since read theories) that the crypts were there to house an army of badass Starks that could be raised from the dead to fight the Others.

I also always wondered wtf Bran saw flying out of the crypts, whether it was a dream or vision or whatever of something dragon-like.

And the idea that there's a greenseer down there is super intriguing! Can't wait to read that @40 Thousand Skeletons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tucu said:

My take on this: initially for the Long Night, afterwards for the harshest winters. We already see similar uses of underground passages and living areas in Mole Town and Castle Black. I think many of the petty kingdoms that rose after the Long Night were centered around CotF caves that sheltered them from the worst effects of Winter.

In BR's cave the CoTF and Bran's team are sheltered from the cold, have running water, fish, space to breed animals and are hidden/protected from raiders. They are similar to Fallout's vaults

Aaah, but the long night may not refer simply to winter, but dragon attacks. The sun "hiding for a generation" could be a result of a major climatic event, but it could also refer to humans going underground. GRRM has written the story so that we think dragons will stop the long night, when really dragons are the long night. They bring death and destruction and little else. 

I can't stress enough how much asoiaf is an anti-Vietnam War story, and a huge aspect of that war is that American aerial bombing campaigns were rendered basically useless because the north Vietnamese simply hid in underground bunkers. They in fact constructed enough bunkers to house almost their entire population of 18 million people.

And the underground tunnel network also explains how a war between Others and dragons wouldn't be completely one-sided. The Others live underground (obviously, because they cannot withstand sunlight) and would be able to retreat underground at any moment. They also seem to have the power to telekinetically move frigid air from the north with them through the tunnels (as implied by the AGOT prologue), and this is a potential lethal weapon against dragons. In the short story The Ice Dragon, an ice dragon kills fire dragons by freezing them to death with frigid air.

Directly related to all that is House Stark and WF. Which side were the Starks on? Well the big clue is the words of their house: winter is coming. Most readers assume this is a warning. But that goes against the general theme of house words, which are otherwise braggadocious and more akin to a battle cry, like "hear me roar" or "we do not sow". "Winter is coming" is not a warning. It's a battle cry. The Starks were the Kings of Winter. And this would be consistent with the idea that Brandon the Builder Stark did not raise the Wall to stop the Others, since the Others travel underground anyways and so a Wall above ground is basically useless.

In short, I think the matriarch progenitor of House Stark/wife of Brandon the Builder is a greenseer living in the crypts who is pro-winter and pro-Others and anti-dragon, hence the name Winterfell. Even Jory mentioned in the very first chapter that he has heard vague stories of dead mothers giving birth in reference to the direwolves. What stories have you heard Jory? Could those stories originally have been about House Stark itself? Hopefully TWOW will give us answers...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Aaah, but the long night may not refer simply to winter, but dragon attacks. The sun "hiding for a generation" could be a result of a major climatic event, but it could also refer to humans going underground. GRRM has written the story so that we think dragons will stop the long night, when really dragons are the long night. They bring death and destruction and little else. 

I can't stress enough how much asoiaf is an anti-Vietnam War story, and a huge aspect of that war is that American aerial bombing campaigns were rendered basically useless because the north Vietnamese simply hid in underground bunkers. They in fact constructed enough bunkers to house almost their entire population of 18 million people.

And the underground tunnel network also explains how a war between Others and dragons wouldn't be completely one-sided. The Others live underground (obviously, because they cannot withstand sunlight) and would be able to retreat underground at any moment. They also seem to have the power to telekinetically move frigid air from the north with them through the tunnels (as implied by the AGOT prologue), and this is a potential lethal weapon against dragons. In the short story The Ice Dragon, an ice dragon kills fire dragons by freezing them to death with frigid air.

Directly related to all that is House Stark and WF. Which side were the Starks on? Well the big clue is the words of their house: winter is coming. Most readers assume this is a warning. But that goes against the general theme of house words, which are otherwise braggadocious and more akin to a battle cry, like "hear me roar" or "we do not sow". "Winter is coming" is not a warning. It's a battle cry. The Starks were the Kings of Winter. And this would be consistent with the idea that Brandon the Builder Stark did not raise the Wall to stop the Others, since the Others travel underground anyways and so a Wall above ground is basically useless.

In short, I think the matriarch progenitor of House Stark/wife of Brandon the Builder is a greenseer living in the crypts who is pro-winter and pro-Others and anti-dragon, hence the name Winterfell. Even Jory mentioned in the very first chapter that he has heard vague stories of dead mothers giving birth in reference to the direwolves. What stories have you heard Jory? Could those stories originally have been about House Stark itself? Hopefully TWOW will give us answers...

I have a somehow different (crackpot) view on this. I see the people inhabiting the caves having 3 enemies: a magical uncontrollable/non-rational Winter, the fire fanatics with their dragons and the broken men desperate for resources.

The WW and the wights are magical tools to help these people be safe within their caves until the magical winter is over. These people are not pro-Winter or anti-dragon, just survivors that trust the Old Gods and can still can follow old Pacts without asking too many questions; the Starks, Reeds, some wildlings and others would be part of this.

Personally I don't expect ice dragons as this conflict is asymmetric. It is also not possible to win it, just survive it.

As Jon says to Clydas:

Quote

"Winter is coming <...> save as many as you can"

 

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have a somehow different (crackpot) view on this. I see the people inhabiting the caves having 3 enemies: a magical uncontrollable/non-rational Winter, the fire fanatics with their dragons and the broken men desperate for resources.

The WW and the wights are magical tools to help these people be safe within their caves until the magical winter is over. These people are not pro-Winter or anti-dragon, just survivors that trust the Old Gods and can still can follow old Pacts without asking too many questions; the Starks, Reeds, some wildlings and others would be part of this.

Personally I don't expect ice dragons as this conflict is asymmetric. It is also not possible to win it, just survive it.

As Jon says to Clydas:

 

But the bigger question is, what do the Old Gods themselves (the weirnet and the multitude of greenseers attached to its root system) want. It is them I am really accusing of being pro winter and anti dragon. And I think they may be the ones directly controlling the weird seasons.

I also don't expect actual ice dragons to be in this story, though they could be, but the point is that frigid cold has been established as a method to kill dragons by the author.

Yes, Jon and modern Starks certainly interpret their words as a warning, but I don't think that was their original meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×