Why does the Hound hate Tyrion so much?

[Springwatch]

9 hours ago, Trefayne said:

I can appreciate your query, but unless Sandor or Cersei decide to tell us we may never know.

I've always wondered why Sandor was in their service at all considering his attitudes. As I said, I'm sure the money didn't hurt, but he could have taken off and had the time of his life in Essos as a sellsword. If he's willing to work for the Lannisters and tolerate his brother, he can put up with most anything.

I don't think he has to work with his brother. Service with the Lannisters was his escape route out of the Clegane household, which he took as soon as Gregor became head of family.

He shouldn't have stayed with the Lannisters, but he did, one reason being he could reach the top of his game as the best bodyguard money can buy. The other reason is the depressed reasoning and cynicism that made him think that no-one, not even Ned Stark, was in reality any better than the Lannisters. It's the only world he knew.

[zandru]

10 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Well, we can't be sure if Cersei asked or Tywin ordered, but it probably went something like this:

Tywin told Gregor to send him.

Gregor glared at Sandor and pointed.

Sandor glared back, just as meanly, then went and became Cersie's pup.

No, this is totally wrong. Sandor left (possibly fled) his father's home right after Gregor killed their father in a "hunting accident." He'd go straight to Casterly Rock to claim service with Tywin Lannister, his liege lord - and thus be under Lannister protection from his murderous brother. After all, he was 12 years old and no match for a 17-yo 8 foot tall monster like Gregor, who didn't want any competition for the Clegane lands and tower house.

Tywin would have been the man who assigned Sandor to guard his lovely daughter, Cersei, once she was betrothed to  Robert Baratheon. Probably not at first, until he'd proved himself and maybe grown a little. Tywin wasn't in King's Landing for most of the backstory, but would have sent Sandor, along with many other Lannister men, to keep Cersei and her offspring safe. Naturally, she would later assign him to her little Crown Prince Joffrey, once he was old enough to strut around on his own.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't think he has to work with his brother. Service with the Lannisters was his escape route out of the Clegane household, which he took as soon as Gregor became head of family.

He shouldn't have stayed with the Lannisters, but he did, one reason being he could reach the top of his game as the best bodyguard money can buy. The other reason is the depressed reasoning and cynicism that made him think that no-one, not even Ned Stark, was in reality any better than the Lannisters. It's the only world he knew.

Wow! A lot of "me" quotes back there, so I'll try to answer all of you in one post.

As to how Sandor got into service of the Lannisters I can't really speak to. My first post on that was a facetious attempt at character deconstruction. Gregor is very two dimensional in comparison to his brother. Sandor seems willing to push back against and defy him (at the tourney for example), but only to a point, and I don't believe it has anything to do with family loyalty, harmony or a respect for the societal norm.

Yes, he probably was young when he entered their service, but damaged people like that tend to grow up fast. I can't fathom why he stays. He may not see his brother often or have to work with/under him, but he still has to suffer him occasionally since Gregor is a Lannister vassal. He has contempt for almost everyone and everything, but I suppose he respects Tywin's strength as a person and the power he wields, but not his position as a high lord.

The only real conclusion that I can come to on this is that Sandor is afraid. He's afraid to go out and be seen as anything but a monster. He has repressed rage that he exorcises by being mean to others and pretending(?) not to care (Mycah). His brother is a monster and Sandor wants to be seen as one so people won't try to get to close. It's why he has such a love/hate relationship with Sansa. He wants her attentions, but doesn't think he's worthy to have them. In this way he and Brienne have parallel character arcs.

Oh wow, sick thought! What if Sandor and Brienne end up together at the end? Of course they would both have to die tragically fighting off an enemy together to make it a worthwhile theme.

Anyway, obviously Sandor was inclined to leave and was compelled by the catalyst of the wildfire, but he could have just deserted the line and gone back to the Red Keep and made an excuse. He didn't. He went to "save" Sansa and then said bugger to it all when that didn't go as he'd hoped (dreaded?). It was too much shame, even for him, and he can't stand being pitied.

His subsequent relationship with Arya could fill textbooks.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Why single out this particular dynamic?  Sandor is an emotionally damaged young man with a lot of pent up anger.  The same can be said of Tyrion.  Tyrion hates on a lot of people.  Sandor is just one of his victims.  

[Springwatch]

Tyrion gets on really well with Bronn, and I'm sure he could have got along with the Hound as well. The only thing preventing it is Tyrion's unstoppable habit of insulting and humiliating Joff, and that makes trouble for the Hound because Joff is both crazy and cruel and it's his job to deal with it. A lot of what Sandor says - mocking Tyrion; embarrassing Robb - is aimed at protecting Joff's ego, preventing an outburst of evil.

Why does Tyrion not know this? When Sandor 'warns' Tyrion that the prince will not forget an insult, Tyrion takes it as a toothless threat and responds with more snark. But it was genuinely a warning.

[Springwatch]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

Tywin would have been the man who assigned Sandor to guard his lovely daughter, Cersei, once she was betrothed to  Robert Baratheon. Probably not at first, until he'd proved himself and maybe grown a little. Tywin wasn't in King's Landing for most of the backstory, but would have sent Sandor, along with many other Lannister men, to keep Cersei and her offspring safe

Tywin, definitely - probably he selected the Hound for his sensationally lovely daughter for the same reasons that Tyrion chose monster ugly household guards for his beautiful Shae.

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

The only real conclusion that I can come to on this is that Sandor is afraid. He's afraid to go out and be seen as anything but a monster. He has repressed rage that he exorcises by being mean to others and pretending(?) not to care (Mycah). His brother is a monster and Sandor wants to be seen as one so people won't try to get to close.

This has got to be close to the mark. Not just repressed rage, but repressed ideals, a repressed conscience, repressed everything. Also, if his monster act is convincing enough, he probably doesn't have to be as brutal quite so often in actual fact - frightened people give in without a fight.

I think one of the reasons he keeps coming back to Sansa is because he knows he hasn't managed to frighten her into submission yet (putting herself in danger with Joff apart from anything).

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

This has got to be close to the mark. Not just repressed rage, but repressed ideals, a repressed conscience, repressed everything. Also, if his monster act is convincing enough, he probably doesn't have to be as brutal quite so often in actual fact - frightened people give in without a fight.

This is true. He uses the reputation of his brother as a shield to bolster his own, while at the same time resenting him for it. Sandor is a formidable man and to be feared to be sure, but the Mountain overshadows all.

Sandor chooses (or possibly has chosen for him) the symbol of a domesticated dog for his moniker and identifying marks. Not a wild creature, like a wolf or lion or even a bear. He chose a hound. Fierce, but well heeled. Trained to follow commands, but still put on a leash. Compare this to Gregor who is allowed to be a free ranging wild animal and valued for it.

Perhaps that's the key. Sandor sees Gregor as what he could be, so he actively wants to be curtailed by someone who has the power to do so, i.e. Tywin., but he gets caught in a situation where the people he's assigned to, Cersei and Joff, are worse than his brother in many ways.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I think one of the reasons he keeps coming back to Sansa is because he knows he hasn't managed to frighten her into submission yet (putting herself in danger with Joff apart from anything).

I think it's pretty obvious that he's in love with her. She is the first to ever show him any interest or see him as anything but the monster he wants to project. And he reacts much like Brienne did with Renly, trying in his own fumbling and misguided way to be romantic with his "little bird" moniker. He just doesn't have the words, and more importantly, the courage to say what he feels, so he resorts to being the mean little boy in the schoolyard who pushes the girl he has a crush on into the mud.

I think it was an interesting point that Sandor stepped in when Gregor wanted to kill Loras at the tourney. Why should he care about Loras (except for Highgarden starting a war against a sworn sword of the Lannisters, but that's not his problem)? It certainly wasn't to spare family honor. I think it was because Loras is what Sandor would like to be; beloved and desired, but also able to look Gregor in the eye and sneer and show no fear to the most fearsome man in the realm, like Loras did metaphorically with the mare.

[zandru]

Lots of very insightful posts!!

4 hours ago, Trefayne said:

he only real conclusion that I can come to on this is that Sandor is afraid. He's afraid to go out and be seen as anything but a monster. He has repressed rage that he exorcises by being mean to others and pretending(?) not to care (Mycah).

Sounds on the mark. I also assumed that "defecting" from the Lannisters would result in Tywin putting a price on his head, or something. Can a "sworn sword" retract his vow without consequence?

4 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Oh wow, sick thought! What if Sandor and Brienne end up together at the end?

Seems pretty reasonable to me (think of the gigantic children!!) But Westeros would regard it with laughter as a freak show. Don't see why everyone has to die tragically, going down fighting... (that's just me)

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Tyrion gets on really well with Bronn, and I'm sure he could have got along with the Hound as well. The only thing preventing it is Tyrion's unstoppable habit of insulting and humiliating Joff, and that makes trouble for the Hound because Joff is both crazy and cruel and it's his job to deal with it. A lot of what Sandor says - mocking Tyrion; embarrassing Robb - is aimed at protecting Joff's ego, preventing an outburst of evil.

You've really got it there! As you noted, when Sandor warned Tyrion that Joffrey would remember this, Tyrion just thought it was more of the big guy's "insolence." In fact, Joffrey and Sandor seem to have a very familiar, easy relationship. As far as I recall, Joffrey has never demanded obeisances from Sandor and Sandor has never given them. Their exchanges (can't call them conversations) seem fairly light-hearted and off the cuff. But, harkening back to earlier observations, while Sandor may be Joff's "sworn shield", he reports back to Cersei. Always, and frequently. Joff knows he's on a relatively short leash. At least, until he's named King.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

This has got to be close to the mark. Not just repressed rage, but repressed ideals, a repressed conscience, repressed everything. Also, if his monster act is convincing enough, he probably doesn't have to be as brutal quite so often in actual fact - frightened people give in without a fight.

Good catch! Note all the times that Sandor just needs to loosen his sword in its sheath, or give one of his "Hobson's choices" (your boots or your legs).

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think one of the reasons he keeps coming back to Sansa is because he knows he hasn't managed to frighten her into submission yet

Don't know about this one. Sansa is in a constant state of terror when he's nearby. When Sandor is elsewhere, he's like the Perfect Man that she compares every other man to. In his presence, she's a gibbering parrot.

[Peach King]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

I think it was an interesting point that Sandor stepped in when Gregor wanted to kill Loras at the tourney. Why should he care about Loras (except for Highgarden starting a war against a sworn sword of the Lannisters, but that's not his problem)? It certainly wasn't to spare family honor. I think it was because Loras is what Sandor would like to be; beloved and desired, but also able to look Gregor in the eye and sneer and show no fear to the most fearsome man in the realm, like Loras did metaphorically with the mare.

Agree, also in that moment Loras was a frightened kid who was powerless in the face of The Mountain's cruelty. This might have stirred some powerful memories in Sandor, recognising his younger self in Loras and thus he felt obligated to save him from Gregor. 

And kinda irrelevant but I can't think why people get mad at Loras for playing that trick on the Mountain.

"The most terrifying moment of the day came during Ser Gregor's second joust, when his lance rode up and struck a young knight from the Vale under the gorget with such force that it drove through his throat, killing him instantly."

Like did they forget  this just happened earlier that day? The Mountain is a gigantic brute who has no problem killing innocents. Loras is a small dude plus he's 16 and is said to look even younger than that. Cheating was the smart thing to do. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Sounds on the mark. I also assumed that "defecting" from the Lannisters would result in Tywin putting a price on his head, or something. Can a "sworn sword" retract his vow without consequence?

...

Seems pretty reasonable to me (think of the gigantic children!!) But Westeros would regard it with laughter as a freak show. Don't see why everyone has to die tragically, going down fighting... (that's just me)

IIRC they did put a bounty on his head. It's one of the things that made his arc with Arya so fun and full of merriment!

No, usually an oath is binding until death or by the release of the receiver of the oath. His desertion at least warrants imprisonment. Since he deserted the battle, his post and the Crown, they pumped it up to dead or alive.

...

Are you kidding? The Hound and the Maid of Tarth back to back on a low hill, surrounded by ten thousand zombies, hacking away for hours in red misted bliss, until finally the Hound is overwhelmed. Howling in grief, Brienne continues on, killing another two hundred before she too, is finally overcome. The only thing that would make it more poetically tragic is if she had their suckling babe at her breast during the whole battle.

[FictionIsntReal]

3 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Sandor chooses (or possibly has chosen for him) the symbol of a domesticated dog for his moniker and identifying marks.

Tytos Lannister raised up the Cleganes from kennelmasters to landed knights after their dogs saved him during a hunt, although all three dogs died. That's where the arms come from (depicting three dogs, not one). Sandor didn't choose them.

Quote

I think it was an interesting point that Sandor stepped in when Gregor wanted to kill Loras at the tourney. Why should he care about Loras (except for Highgarden starting a war against a sworn sword of the Lannisters, but that's not his problem)? It certainly wasn't to spare family honor. I think it was because Loras is what Sandor would like to be; beloved and desired, but also able to look Gregor in the eye and sneer and show no fear to the most fearsome man in the realm, like Loras did metaphorically with the mare.

I figured it was just because Sandor hates Gregor.

[Frey Kings]

Sandor jumped in to save Loras because that was his job. There were no one else. 

 

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tytos Lannister raised up the Cleganes from kennelmasters to landed knights after their dogs saved him during a hunt, although all three dogs died. That's where the arms come from (depicting three dogs, not one). Sandor didn't choose them.

Sandor is not head of the house and spits on the whole idea knighthood so coats of arms don't mean a thing to him. Technically, they are not Sandor's coat of arms anyway, at least until his brother dies. Unless Gregor had children we haven't heard about. His brother is never described as having elaborate dog themes in his armor or other trappings.

So why would Sandor choose a motif to which he has no attachment? One that even his brother doesn't seem to display with pride? Convenience could be a reason or lack of imagination, although his armor is more imaginative than his brother's. A gift from Joffery no doubt. So as I said before, Sandor either chose it or it was chosen for him (since he's not going to cross Joffery). He could be just a big ugly guy in plain armor, but he allows himself to be the Hound instead because he can use it to hide behind.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Tyrion loved making fun of people.  The Hound was the butt of his many insults.  

[zandru]

3 hours ago, Trefayne said:

andor is not head of the house and spits on the whole idea knighthood so coats of arms don't mean a thing to him.

This is not true. All members of a House are entitled to wear the sigils of that house, as are the folks who serve that house. Sandor has every right to the Clegane black dogs on a field of yellow, and in fact, this is how his shield is painted.

Calling himself "the Hound" echoes the family sigil as well as emphasizing his loyalty, obedience, and ferocity. The helm, which is in keeping with the fanciful helms described for the major houses, emphasizes his identity as the Hound, as well as making him more attractive.

There's nothing arbitrary or unimaginative about any of it. I'd also guess that his armor was done by his own order. If Joffrey (or Cersei) had had anything to do with it, it would be some frou frou gilded crap with lion's heads all over it. Like the stuff Jaime wears when he's not in Kingsguard whites.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

7 minutes ago, zandru said:

This is not true. All members of a House are entitled to wear the sigils of that house, as are the folks who serve that house. Sandor has every right to the Clegane black dogs on a field of yellow, and in fact, this is how his shield is painted.

Calling himself "the Hound" echoes the family sigil as well as emphasizing his loyalty, obedience, and ferocity. The helm, which is in keeping with the fanciful helms described for the major houses, emphasizes his identity as the Hound, as well as making him more attractive.

There's nothing arbitrary or unimaginative about any of it. I'd also guess that his armor was done by his own order. If Joffrey (or Cersei) had had anything to do with it, it would be some frou frou gilded crap with lion's heads all over it. Like the stuff Jaime wears when he's not in Kingsguard whites.

There is your key term right there. Entitled does not mean required. The Blackfish eschews it for his own coat of arms. And if Sandor decided to be knighted he would create his own coat of arms to distinguish himself from his brother. He wears it because he is in service to his liege lord through his brother's house. You did notice that he doesn't have the helmet anymore? It's not like he can't be easily identified without it. Someone was impersonating him in the Riverlands just to cash in on his monsterous reputation. The one he was careful to cultivate.

The commons wore livery badges and outfits to let others know what their social status was and to which house or agency they were attached. In a mostly illiterate society identity papers were practically useless and this let people know who they were dealing with. Household knights would wear their own coat of arms with a livery badge of the house to which they were attached if they chose. Men at arms and impressed troops would be the ones required to wear the house colors and badges. Landed knights wore their own heraldic devices. Their vassalage was well known by the lands they administrated. Just think about how Egg likes to fire off all the heraldry and dynastic attachments to Dunk.

I'm not really too interested in the origin of the Hound's helmet, just what he uses it for and why he would seemingly embrace something he so openly finds distasteful. The bolded snippet above sounds more like the Lannisters talking than the Hound. I also doubt your assertion he would wear any "frou frou" armor as you call it. He wouldn't wear the KG white armor IIRC. His armor was always described as rather plain and out of place in the spectacle of KL, something I think he did on purpose to make the people around him uncomfortable.

[Lord Varys]

In Westeros, all members of a noble house are entitled to wear the arms of that house. There is no question about that. Sandor's arms are the same as Gregor's until such time as he takes personal arms of his own - which he never does, to our knowledge.

Personal arms are the exception, not the rule, as we learn when Renly quips about there being confusion on the battlefield if Stannis hadn't taken a new sigil.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In Westeros, all members of a noble house are entitled to wear the arms of that house. There is no question about that. Sandor's arms are the same as Gregor's until such time as he takes personal arms of his own - which he never does, to our knowledge.

Personal arms are the exception, not the rule, as we learn when Renly quips about there being confusion on the battlefield if Stannis hadn't taken a new sigil.

Gentry too, and only if they choose to do so. Freemen are not bound to any knight or lord by law. Sandor chooses to wear his brother's arms.

They are not the exception. Personal arms defined who you were. Very often they would be similar in design and symbolism of the family crest, but they would be distinct. Sometimes they just changed the color scheme like Blackfyre did.

Stannis' and Renley's case is actually "bass ackwards". As the elder brother Stannis has the right to display the family crest and Renly would have been obliged to change his coat of arms, but it was also Stannis' option to do what he did.

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

Gentry too, and only if they choose to do so. Freemen are not bound to any knight or lord by law. Sandor chooses to wear his brother's arms.

Sandor wears his own arms, the arms of House Clegane. They do not belong only the eldest son of the house.

16 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

They are not the exception. Personal arms defined who you were. Very often they would be similar in design and symbolism of the family crest, but they would be distinct. Sometimes they just changed the color scheme like Blackfyre did.

Personal arms are a very rare thing in the history of Westeros. They are thee exception, not the rule.

16 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

Stannis' and Renley's case is actually "bass ackwards". As the elder brother Stannis has the right to display the family crest and Renly would have been obliged to change his coat of arms, but it was also Stannis' option to do what he did.

There was no obligation to do anything. The crowned stag of House Baratheon was the personal sigil of King Robert, Lord Stannis (until such a time as King Stannis changed it) and Lord Renly. None of these men saw any reason to change their sigil, nor do the various brothers and cousins of Houses Lannister or Tyrell see any reason to change their arms.

You seem to want to introduce more complex real world heraldic rules into the Seven Kingdoms when the rules there are much simpler.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You seem to want to introduce more complex real world heraldic rules into the Seven Kingdoms when the rules there are much simpler.

Oh? And where exactly are the heraldic rules for Westeros spelled out?