Were the Tyrells necessary to defeat Stannis?

[Canon Claude]

Honestly, I dispute why the Tyrells were needed to beat Stannis at the battle of the Blackwater. Sure, he had fewer than 20,000 men, but if you combine that with the garrison of King’s Landing, he would have outnumbered Stannis. And yes, it would have been a tough fight, but I think Tywin would have been able to win without the Tyrells.

 

[Bernie Mac]

Sure, but it would have been a pyrrhic victory. An army of 10-15k would not be enough to rule the realm and would likely make them sitting ducks against Robb. 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

The Lanns were besieged by multiple enemies.  They needed the Tyrells to give Stannis a thorough beating.  Stannis might not break through the city defenses but he could surround the city and starve them out.  Cersei doesn't have an onion knight to call on.  They had to beat Stannis quickly and do it convingly to send him running back to dragonstone.

 

[Pikachu101]

Having the Tyrells was very necessary, not only did they help the Lannisters defeat Stannis but their support gave Joffrey much needed legitimacy after 4/7 of Westeros rebelled against him.

[Trigger Warning]

Tywin could have broken Stannis' army by himself, his vanguard could have probably done it. They were taken completely unawares in the rear whilst they were in the middle of storming a city... across a river... with half their fleet burning. Even a much smaller force would have probably crippled their morale the second they heard fighting behind them, being attacked in the rear is devastating there's a reason most armies withdraw from a siege when a relief force is on the way, the hammer and the anvil is no joke I don't think it would have been a tough fight at all. At the Battle of Barnet the arrival of allies was mistaken as the arrival of enemies at the rear, fighting broke out and confusion spread through the line, the Lancastrian centre began to collapse as fear and confusion spread... now imagine that but with masses of heavy cavalry ploughing into the rear. 

Honestly their morale should have been crippled the second their fleet turned into a fiery hellscape of death, what nutcases would cross a bridge of mangled ships after all that death to what? Emerge beneath a city wall and all their archers with no siege equipment? Stannis' men are berserkers until they're not. 

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

As other people said, it wasn't just about defeating Stannis. The Tyrells joining the Lannisters meant that everyone opposed to them was instantly screwed. But to answer the question, no, Tywin could have probably defeated Stannis on his own.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Better to have a definite victory then a possible one. Plus it gets them a connection to the second wealthiest House in the Seven Kingdoms, along with food to keep the small folk content. 

[Corvinus85]

In terms of how the battle went down, Tywin probably could have won on his own, but it's more than that.

Tywin was engaged with Robb's forces (the River Lords) and turned around, linked up with the Tyrells, and marched on KL. But if Littlefinger hadn't secured this deal, then Tywin's whole strategy may have been different. There was certainly some communication between factions that we don't see in the books, and a lot of what happened hinges on that.

[Canon Claude]

I suppose a better question would have been what Tywin would have done if the Tyrells had stayed neutral. Given their size and strengh, the Tyrell army could have easily swept in and killed the survivors of Tywin or Stannis’ army, regardless of who wins, and installed Mace Tyrell as the new King of the Iron Throne.

[Blackfish Tully]

If the Tyrells decided to stay neutral then there would be no riders sent to the Battle of the Fords to tell Tywin that Stannis is attacking Kings Landing and also there are no barges waiting to take Tywin's army to Kings Landing so he would arrive there much later than in the story . More than likely Stannis would have taken the city before Tywin arrived and would be holding Joffrey, Cersei & Tyrion hostage if they survived the battle not to mention the other Knights and other noblemen that were in the city so Tywin would be in a very tricky situation with what to do at that point . Also he still would have Robb and the Riverlords to deal with plus who knows what Dorne, the Vale and the Iron Islands would do once Tywin is in such a weakened situation. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 7:58 PM, Canon Claude said:

I think Tywin would have been able to win without the Tyrells.

 

Quite possibly, but why would you turn down such valuable allies? As others have said, it wasn't just about beating Stannis, but winning the war as a whole. The alliance with the Tyrells meant the two most powerful of the 7K were united. The alliance is so important, even after the Blackwater, that Tywin wants to "temper it and make it strong".

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Quite possibly, but why would you turn down such valuable allies? As others have said, it wasn't just about beating Stannis, but winning the war as a whole. The alliance with the Tyrells meant the two most powerful of the 7K were united. The alliance is so important, even after the Blackwater, that Tywin wants to "temper it and make it strong".

The question wasn't whether Tywin would reject those allies. The idea is what would happen if that gesture by the Tyrells was never made to the Lannisters in the first place. And frankly, I'm starting to think that from the Tyrells' point of view, they really missed out on a great opportunity to take power without having to compromise. Renly did it best when he just sat back and waited for his enemies to destroy each other. Stannis would have wiped out Cersei, Joffrey, Tyrion, and the others, while Robb and Edmure would deal with Tywin. Meanwhile, though, Stannis won't ally with Robb because Robb's declared himself king, Robb has to deal with Balon declaring war on the North, Edmure won't betray Robb, Stannis is too weak to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, so it would have been the perfect chance for Mace Tyrell to sweep in after the Battle of the Blackwater was over, smash Stannis' victorious but depleted army, kill him, and have Mace Tyrell sit on the Iron Throne. Forget any need to bargain with Tywin to have Margaery married into the royal family, just make yours the royal family and be done with it. 

[James Steller]

Just now, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The question wasn't whether Tywin would reject those allies. The idea is what would happen if that gesture by the Tyrells was never made to the Lannisters in the first place. And frankly, I'm starting to think that from the Tyrells' point of view, they really missed out on a great opportunity to take power without having to compromise. Renly did it best when he just sat back and waited for his enemies to destroy each other. Stannis would have wiped out Cersei, Joffrey, Tyrion, and the others, while Robb and Edmure would deal with Tywin. Meanwhile, though, Stannis won't ally with Robb because Robb's declared himself king, Robb has to deal with Balon declaring war on the North, Edmure won't betray Robb, Stannis is too weak to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, so it would have been the perfect chance for Mace Tyrell to sweep in after the Battle of the Blackwater was over, smash Stannis' victorious but depleted army, kill him, and have Mace Tyrell sit on the Iron Throne. Forget any need to bargain with Tywin to have Margaery married into the royal family, just make yours the royal family and be done with it. 

It is not that simple. Half the men with Stannis were knights and noblemen from the Reach. That's a huge chunk of the Tyrells' bannermen, and that's also before you even consider the infantry that never joined their lords in supporting Stannis. Obviously the biggest houses didn't turn on Mace (Hightower, Tarly, Redwyne) but the point is that the Tyrells do not have as much command over their own bannermen as, say, the Lannisters or the Arryns. The Tyrells are regarded in similar ways as the Freys: common social climbers who got lucky. If Mace Tyrell tried to claim the Iron Throne by right of conquest, nobody would support him outside of the Reach. I mean, they don't even follow the royal family, why should anyone support a random Great House once again trying to get above their position? True, Stannis and Tywin dead or captured is a huge asset to anyone else's campaign (assuming Mace waits for both those things to happen). But you'd still have multiple kingdoms who have no history or interest in answering to a southron lord from the Reach. It would just push even more people to declare their independence. 

And we haven't even discussed the fact that Myrcella would still be alive, and probably Tommen too. They'd become thorns in any usurper's side, not to mention the fact that the hated Dornish have their hands on Myrcella. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

they really missed out on a great opportunity to take power without having to compromise.

They had no claim. That does matter in this world.

18 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Meanwhile, though, Stannis won't ally with Robb because Robb's declared himself king

From what Robb said when he bollocked Edmure for the Stone Mill debacle, it seems at the very least Robb would have talked to Stannis. Whether that would have worked or not, I don't know, neither do you, and neither did the Tyrells.

The point is, after Renly died, they were open to the highest bidder that wasn't Stannis. That was Tywin.

 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:58 PM, Canon Claude said:

Honestly, I dispute why the Tyrells were needed to beat Stannis at the battle of the Blackwater. Sure, he had fewer than 20,000 men, but if you combine that with the garrison of King’s Landing, he would have outnumbered Stannis. And yes, it would have been a tough fight, but I think Tywin would have been able to win without the Tyrells.

 

Are you talking just in terms of military strength? Then no, Tywin did not need Tyrell swords to defeat Stannis.

But he did need Tyrell boats to get to the battle in time. Remember, Tywin was up at Riverrun when Stannis was closing in on King's Landing. He literally arrived just in time only because he was able to force march to the headwaters of the Blackwater where Tyrell was waiting with barges. How did Mace happen to have so many barges way up on the Blackwater? That's a good question, but somehow he managed it.

But even if Tywin does reach KL in time without Tyrell help, he would still have a problem even after defeating Stannis. First, his army would be depleted, and Tyrell still has some 60,000 men at Bitterbridge, and second, the city walls and gates would be badly damaged.

So in all likelihood, Tywin would have still defeated Stannis on the Blackwater, but in a very short while the Tyrell army would have descended on them and wound up executing all Lannisters in sight and putting a crown on Mace's head.

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Are you talking just in terms of military strength? Then no, Tywin did not need Tyrell swords to defeat Stannis.

But he did need Tyrell boats to get to the battle in time. Remember, Tywin was up at Riverrun when Stannis was closing in on King's Landing. He literally arrived just in time only because he was able to force march to the headwaters of the Blackwater where Tyrell was waiting with barges. How did Mace happen to have so many barges way up on the Blackwater? That's a good question, but somehow he managed it.

But even if Tywin does reach KL in time without Tyrell help, he would still have a problem even after defeating Stannis. First, his army would be depleted, and Tyrell still has some 60,000 men at Bitterbridge, and second, the city walls and gates would be badly damaged.

So in all likelihood, Tywin would have still defeated Stannis on the Blackwater, but in a very short while the Tyrell army would have descended on them and wound up executing all Lannisters in sight and putting a crown on Mace's head.

Seems strange then that they didn’t do that. 

[Stormking902]

10 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

If the Tyrells decided to stay neutral then there would be no riders sent to the Battle of the Fords to tell Tywin that Stannis is attacking Kings Landing and also there are no barges waiting to take Tywin's army to Kings Landing so he would arrive there much later than in the story . More than likely Stannis would have taken the city before Tywin arrived and would be holding Joffrey, Cersei & Tyrion hostage if they survived the battle not to mention the other Knights and other noblemen that were in the city so Tywin would be in a very tricky situation with what to do at that point . Also he still would have Robb and the Riverlords to deal with plus who knows what Dorne, the Vale and the Iron Islands would do once Tywin is in such a weakened situation. 

And exactly how would Stannis take the Redkeep with no siege equipment ? Everyone forgets the Redkeep is a seperate structure from the walls of KL and a formidable castle which would hold out untill Tywin arrived. The city would absolutly be lost though, and if Stannis stormed the walls his men would be thrown back easily since they lost their siege weapons in the fire. 

[Blackfish Tully]

40 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

And exactly how would Stannis take the Redkeep with no siege equipment ? Everyone forgets the Redkeep is a seperate structure from the walls of KL and a formidable castle which would hold out untill Tywin arrived. The city would absolutly be lost though, and if Stannis stormed the walls his men would be thrown back easily since they lost their siege weapons in the fire. 

why would Stannis not have any siege equipment ?  The siege equipment was hammering the gates of Kings Landing so they would not have burnt up in the fire . Stannis still had 16,000 soldiers left and they would have returned to hammering on the Mud Gate (which had been abandoned by the gold cloaks ) and when that gate fell they would move their equipment to the Red Keep and hammered those gates till they fell and that would have been it . Don't forget that the main defenders of Kings Landing are sellswords and gold cloaks neither one have any real loyalty to the Lannisters so first chance they get they will turn their cloak or just abandon their post. The gold cloaks at the Mud Gate abandoned their posts and killed their captain before Stannis broke the gate so what do you think they will do after Stannis gets inside the city , why would any of them die for Joffrey or Tywin ?

without the Tyrells there just is no scenario  where Stannis does not take the city and the Red Keep , the only question is will he get to Tommen before Tywin ?

[Stormking902]

42 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

why would Stannis not have any siege equipment ?  The siege equipment was hammering the gates of Kings Landing so they would not have burnt up in the fire . Stannis still had 16,000 soldiers left and they would have returned to hammering on the Mud Gate (which had been abandoned by the gold cloaks ) and when that gate fell they would move their equipment to the Red Keep and hammered those gates till they fell and that would have been it . Don't forget that the main defenders of Kings Landing are sellswords and gold cloaks neither one have any real loyalty to the Lannisters so first chance they get they will turn their cloak or just abandon their post. The gold cloaks at the Mud Gate abandoned their posts and killed their captain before Stannis broke the gate so what do you think they will do after Stannis gets inside the city , why would any of them die for Joffrey or Tywin ?

without the Tyrells there just is no scenario  where Stannis does not take the city and the Red Keep , the only question is will he get to Tommen before Tywin ?

The gold cloaks and sell swords hold the city walls while the Lannister men at arms hold the Redkeep, do you think THE KINGS castle doesnt have a regular garison of men for peace times let alone war time? Gold cloaks are city guard not Redkeeps garison of men. Also there were three KG commanders and other soldiers still fighting when Tywin and the Tyrells arrived they would eventually fall back to the Redkeep when the city was truly lost. I dont have the quote handy but Stannis DID lose his siege weapons in the wildfire assault, yes his men were hammering down the mud gate they could use alote of different things for this task a battering ram could be a dahm tree. If all 16000 men landed and organized an assault sure maybe they take the Redkeep but they would lose a lot of men in the assault. 

[Nittanian]

The Red Keep is manned by gold cloaks who have barracks within the castle, and important nobles can have their own personal guard as well.

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He had run her halfway across the castle; twice around the Tower of the Hand, across the inner bailey, through the stables, down the serpentine steps, past the small kitchen and the pig yard and the barracks of the gold cloaks, along the base of the river wall and up more steps and back and forth over Traitor's Walk, and then down again and through a gate and around a well and in and out of strange buildings until Arya didn't know where she was ...

... At the end of the alley stood a girl with a mass of golden curls, dressed as pretty as a doll in blue satin. Beside her was a plump little blond boy with a prancing stag sewn in pearls across the front of his doublet and a miniature sword at his belt. Princess Myrcella and Prince Tommen, Arya thought. A septa as large as a draft horse hovered over them, and behind her two big men in crimson cloaks, Lannister house guards. (AGOT Arya III)

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At least he could sit. Save the council, the rest must stand respectfully, or kneel. The petitioners clustered near the tall doors, the knights and high lords and ladies beneath the tapestries, the smallfolk in the gallery, the mailed guards in their cloaks, gold or grey: all stood. (AGOT Eddard XI)

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The Red Keep was dark and still as Cayn and Tomard escorted him across the inner bailey. The moon hung low over the walls, ripening toward full. On the ramparts, a guardsman in a gold cloak walked his rounds. (AGOT Eddard XIII)

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Littlefinger gave Ned his arm to help him down the steps. Varys, Pycelle, and Ser Barristan followed close behind. A double column of men-at-arms in chainmail and steel helms was waiting outside the tower, eight strong. Grey cloaks snapped in the wind as the guardsmen marched them across the yard. There was no Lannister crimson to be seen, but Ned was reassured by the number of gold cloaks visible on the ramparts and at the gates. (AGOT Eddard XIV)

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"Freedom of the castle" meant that she could go wherever she chose within the Red Keep so long as she promised not to go beyond the walls, a promise Sansa had been more than willing to give. She couldn't have gone beyond the walls anyway. The gates were watched day and night by Janos Slynt's gold cloaks, and Lannister house guards were always about as well. Besides, even if she could leave the castle, where would she go? (AGOT Sansa V)