Why no stark spies

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

I though Jon was older than Robb, hence part of the problem Catelyn had with him? Or am I misremembering?

Well, if Ned is to be believed Jon's younger, as he was conceived after he marched off to war, and Robb was conceived at their bedding.

If R+L=J, then we don't know, either is possible.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

To be fair, one could substitute Storm Lords for Dornish and my point would still stand.

Yes, and my statement below this quote would also stand. In a social/lawful context Mace Tyrell has no authority outside The Reach other than the privilege the station of his birth gives him. In a military context he'll follow who he's told to and those told to follow him will do the same as long as the directive came from the Crown. If the Tyrells marched to the Storm Lords (pre conflict) with the intention of helping militarily, then they would be obliged to fall under Baratheon command.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought Ned and Catelyn had only one night together.

No, Ned did not leave for a fortnight.

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

I though Jon was older than Robb, hence part of the problem Catelyn had with him? Or am I misremembering?

Depending on whether Jon really was born on or about the Sack of KL, he is supposedly a few weeks younger than Jon. The whole point about Jon is that Ned betrayed Catelyn with some chance women on the campaign, which could only happen after he left their marriage bed at Riverrun.

But whether any of this is actually true is anyone's guess.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

Yes, and my statement below this quote would also stand. In a social/lawful context Mace Tyrell has no authority outside The Reach other than the privilege the station of his birth gives him. In a military context he'll follow who he's told to and those told to follow him will do the same as long as the directive came from the Crown. If the Tyrells marched to the Storm Lords (pre conflict) with the intention of helping militarily, then they would be obliged to fall under Baratheon command.

It seems to me that the whole point of naming marshalls in the first place is to have a chain-of-command already in place to at least blunt an invasion before actual battle plans are drawn up. If, say, the IB were to invade the southern coast of Ironman's Bay, they could cause a lot of damage while Casterly Rock, Riverrun and the IT try to figure out who is in charge. Same thing for a foreign invasion up the Trident, which would best be me with a combined response from Riverrun, the Eyrie and KL.

So having it all worked out ahead of time allows at least the initial military response to take shape quicker.

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Thanks for the link! Context is always nice when speculating.

Sorry, I forgot to ask for your resume!  I'm a medieval archeology major myself, so I do tend to prattle on about this stuff. It's also why I get mildly miffed when writers overlook good material for background characters and settings like we are discussing here.

Oh, I got your reference, but you got me going on another tangent. Thread hijack complete!

Wel like i said i appreciate you trying to share your knowledge, and sometimes i prattle about stuff like that to. So its not that i mind or something.

[Angel Eyes]

18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, Ned did not leave for a fortnight.

Depending on whether Jon really was born on or about the Sack of KL, he is supposedly a few weeks younger than Jon. The whole point about Jon is that Ned betrayed Catelyn with some chance women on the campaign, which could only happen after he left their marriage bed at Riverrun.

But whether any of this is actually true is anyone's guess.

I must have confused the book and show. Whoops. 

Also regarding that, Jon being older than Robb would justify Catelyn’s reluctance to have Jon legitimized.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

Yes, and my statement below this quote would also stand. In a social/lawful context Mace Tyrell has no authority outside The Reach other than the privilege the station of his birth gives him. In a military context he'll follow who he's told to and those told to follow him will do the same as long as the directive came from the Crown. If the Tyrells marched to the Storm Lords (pre conflict) with the intention of helping militarily, then they would be obliged to fall under Baratheon command.

Not really, the Lord Tyrel is one of the four wardens, so he is basically already appointed by the crown as one of the four principal military commanders of the king. As such he by virtue of that appointment would in military matters outrank the Lord Baratheon who is not a warden.

Now where things get interesting is if you replace the Baratheons with the Lannisters, since the Lord Lannister is also a warden. As far as i understand GRRM his intention for the wardens it would then depend who's quarter of the realm they are in, Tyrel being warden of the south and Lannister being warden of the west.

Honestly i think there is no exact parallel in the real world for the wardens, marshal comes the closest but is not an exact match.

[John Suburbs]

13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I must have confused the book and show. Whoops. 

Also regarding that, Jon being older than Robb would justify Catelyn’s reluctance to have Jon legitimized.

I think Catelyn's concerns are more in regard to her other children and to Robb's children than to Robb:

Quote

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

snip

"Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa … your own sister, trueborn..."

Daemon Blackfyre was some 15 years younger than Daeron II, so you don't need to be older than the legitimate heir in order to cause trouble.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

17 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Not really, the Lord Tyrel is one of the four wardens, so he is basically already appointed by the crown as one of the four principal military commanders of the king. As such he by virtue of that appointment would in military matters outrank the Lord Baratheon who is not a warden.

Now where things get interesting is if you replace the Baratheons with the Lannisters, since the Lord Lannister is also a warden. As far as i understand GRRM his intention for the wardens it would then depend who's quarter of the realm they are in, Tyrel being warden of the south and Lannister being warden of the west.

Honestly i think there is no exact parallel in the real world for the wardens, marshal comes the closest but is not an exact match.

I agree there. I was just trying to give a little context to the social standing given people for their hereditary (Wardens) and appointed (Master of Coin, Ships etc.) titles that @Angel Eyes was asking about.

Now about the Tyrells/Baratheons. I was under the impression that the Stormlands were under the Wardenship of the Crownlands. This would still make the Baratheons duke level and vassals directly under the Crown, but they are not Wardens. In the case above the Tyrells would actually be under Crown jurisdiction, but aiding another Ward. Hence they would fall under Baratheon command while in their fiefdom due to equal peerage. Of course like I said before, whatever the Crown says goes and if there is a blanket command that Wardens outrank anyone, even in their own lands fighting for their own cause, then that's what the deal is.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Interesting thread! This whole warden stuff got me thinking.. I always wondered if there was an actual point in that Tywin was made Warden of the West AND East, or that it was just to demonstrate how power hungry the Lannisters are, which was obvious anyway, so it didn't add much. 

So your conversation made me think, now that Tywin is dead, Jaime is still KG and Tyrion is out of the picture (for now), Cercei is the Lady of the Rock, which means that she's also Warden of E & W, which would give her a lot of (theoretical) power in absence (or death)  of King Tommen, but would also leave the East and west wardenless if anything would happen to her. 

Besides, there's someone else who has a greater claim to the title of Lord of Casterly Rock; Tyrion.

Now it gets really interesting, because Tyrion also has a claim to Winterfest, through his marriage to Sansa... Which would practically make him Warden of the North, East AND West!!! 

If he sides with Dany, which I think he will, and also ride a dragon, which I also find quite likely, he would have nearly as much power as the King or Queen him-/herself!! Now he would have control of north, east and west in absence of the king, which means that if Dany is off to fight ice zombies with Jon (which is inevitable at some point),  Tyrion would be in the best position IMAGINABLE to take over the IT! 

This would basically be the exact scenario that Ned feared, when he mentioned his worries about Tywin as warden of half of the country. Only with dragons in the game as well... 

Interesting no? It seems like a pretty realistic scenario, and it would work too if Tyrion would side with Aegon either instead of Dany or later on... 

[Sigella]

On 8/7/2018 at 5:40 PM, Trefayne said:

Also, the only freeman occupation in Westeros seems to be sellsword. Everyone else in the commons seems to fall into the serf (smallfolk) class or gentry (knight) class, but then GRRM includes the smaller class distinction about how hedge knights are considered inferior to their house attached brothers in arms. In reality, there were (at times) four classes of serf, the freemen, and four classes of gentry. The same is done to the nobility, where some distinction about who outranks who would be nice at times. Most of the time it is clear who is in charge, but the lower echelons of authority always seem to come down to who has the will to smash the other guy's face in first.

 

You forget the traders and the scum though. Traders have influence, money and can marry their daughters into nobility. The scum are those the serfs look down their noses at, like whores and thieves. Any way they exist on page and enjoy more freedom than serf but isn't knights or nobility. 

 

Also one might argue that knights (and sellswords) are pretty much serf in the same way maesters or septons are. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

You forget the traders and the scum though. Traders have influence, money and can marry their daughters into nobility. The scum are those the serfs look down their noses at, like whores and thieves. Any way they exist on page and enjoy more freedom than serf but isn't knights or nobility. 

 

Also one might argue that knights (and sellswords) are pretty much serf in the same way maesters or septons are. 

They might hope to marry into the gentry, but no self respecting noble would ever let a common merchant into their family. And a merchant wouldn't be a freeman unless he or one of his ancestors had bought their freedom from their lord, or were granted it for some other service; at least in our history. Until then, they would be classed as a villein. Whores would be at the bottom of the heap of society with the cotters. Thieves are outlaws and aren't classed in that sense, but yeah, they are looked down upon unless they are heroes of the commons.

Again, this is in our history. In the books it has been very simplified. There seems to be no real indication of any of this type of thing among the peasantry. An inn keeper is much the same as a farmer in our exposure as far as legal rights and avenues of redress, i.e. none.

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Interesting thread! This whole warden stuff got me thinking.. I always wondered if there was an actual point in that Tywin was made Warden of the West AND East, or that it was just to demonstrate how power hungry the Lannisters are, which was obvious anyway, so it didn't add much. 

So your conversation made me think, now that Tywin is dead, Jaime is still KG and Tyrion is out of the picture (for now), Cercei is the Lady of the Rock, which means that she's also Warden of E & W, which would give her a lot of (theoretical) power in absence (or death)  of King Tommen, but would also leave the East and west wardenless if anything would happen to her. 

Besides, there's someone else who has a greater claim to the title of Lord of Casterly Rock; Tyrion.

Now it gets really interesting, because Tyrion also has a claim to Winterfest, through his marriage to Sansa... Which would practically make him Warden of the North, East AND West!!! 

If he sides with Dany, which I think he will, and also ride a dragon, which I also find quite likely, he would have nearly as much power as the King or Queen him-/herself!! Now he would have control of north, east and west in absence of the king, which means that if Dany is off to fight ice zombies with Jon (which is inevitable at some point),  Tyrion would be in the best position IMAGINABLE to take over the IT! 

This would basically be the exact scenario that Ned feared, when he mentioned his worries about Tywin as warden of half of the country. Only with dragons in the game as well... 

Interesting no? It seems like a pretty realistic scenario, and it would work too if Tyrion would side with Aegon either instead of Dany or later on... 

Jaime was Warden of the East for the first book.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

You guys have lost me. When did the Vale get stripped of the Wardenship of the east?

[Angel Eyes]

7 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

You guys have lost me. When did the Vale get stripped of the Wardenship of the east?

When Jon Arryn died, it’s mentioned in Eddard II. The title was restored to House Arryn at some point in ASOS.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

8 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

When Jon Arryn died, it’s mentioned in Eddard II. The title was restored to House Arryn at some point in ASOS.

Which bolsters my assumption that the title is hereditary. Regencies are common enough.

[Frey Kings]

Even Mance Rayder knew more than Eddard Stark of what was going in the North & the rest of the 7k....

 

 

House Stark just simply isn't equip for the Game of Thrones!!!

[hodorisfaclessman]

1 hour ago, Frey Kings said:

Even Mance Rayder knew more than Eddard Stark of what was going in the North & the rest of the 7k....

 

 

House Stark just simply isn't equip for the Game of Thrones!!!

True but to be fair ned and the starks prob felt they didnt require to play the game or want to

We forget how seemingly powerful and intimidating ned stark is at the novels beggining as we mainly have stark povs, hes a battle hardened lord of one of the 7 realms with ties to 2 others and is the kings best friend + knows his brothers well too.

A man some believe personaly slew the greatest knight ever and now has 5-6 kids to marry off (a huge frey like brood when u think if it) to further cemement more alliances and thus  power ...on top of the seeming heir to the iron isles as a hostage and ward 

A man from a dark mysterious and  rarely ventured to realm by southerners who comes south with his daughter now bethrothed to the future king and has 2 monsters of myth in his entourage! 

A man who prays  to strange old and  gods rumour has it carries out his own executions ...the bloodthirsty savage!!!

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Jon being older than Robb would justify Catelyn’s reluctance to have Jon legitimized.

 

 

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I think Catelyn's concerns are more in regard to her other children and to Robb's children than to Robb

 

Catelyn’s animosity to Jon is not entirely rational. Granted, she has some understandable concerns about either Jon or his descendants being rivals to Robb or his heirs, but all that’s mixed up with an emotional response to Ned betraying her (allegedly), and her being forced to watch the “other woman’s” son be raised among her own children.

According to Ned’s timeline (which Catelyn appears to believe), Jon is definitely younger.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

13 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Now about the Tyrells/Baratheons. I was under the impression that the Stormlands were under the Wardenship of the Crownlands. This would still make the Baratheons duke level and vassals directly under the Crown, but they are not Wardens. In the case above the Tyrells would actually be under Crown jurisdiction, but aiding another Ward. Hence they would fall under Baratheon command while in their fiefdom due to equal peerage. Of course like I said before, whatever the Crown says goes and if there is a blanket command that Wardens outrank anyone, even in their own lands fighting for their own cause, then that's what the deal is.

The Stormlands are distinct from the Crownlands, and are ruled from Storms End, which answers to the Iron Throne. The Baratheons are lords paramount of the Stormlands, like the Tyrells in the Reach, or the Starks in the North. What "wardenship" they come over, who knows? I would hazard a guess the Warden of the South, but could conceivably come under the Wardens of the East. But, as we've discussed, that position is largely irrelevant unless the whole 7Ks are being mobilised.