Why no stark spies

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Which bolsters my assumption that the title is hereditary.

Yes and no. Robert and Ned do discuss it in some detail. It is assumed that the title is passed on along with all the others, but Robert overrules that (due to Cersei’s influence), and argues that such a military role shouldn’t go to a sickly boy.

Cersei gives the title to Daven after Tywin’s death, which in effect makes him commander of the Lannister forces (until Jaime turns up). Whether this is normal practice when a woman inherits, or because they were actively at war and she needed someone “in the field” to hold the title, rather than herself, who knows?

So, the short answer is that the title is hereditary apart from the times when it’s not.

[Frey Kings]

Stark Spies are the Weirwoods, they spend hours just to decode the rustling from the leaves everytime the wind blows. 

[Frey Kings]

The Weirwood warned about Ramsay and Lady Hornwood. No one was around to decode it. =/

[direpupy]

14 hours ago, Trefayne said:

I agree there. I was just trying to give a little context to the social standing given people for their hereditary (Wardens) and appointed (Master of Coin, Ships etc.) titles that @Angel Eyes was asking about.

Now about the Tyrells/Baratheons. I was under the impression that the Stormlands were under the Wardenship of the Crownlands. This would still make the Baratheons duke level and vassals directly under the Crown, but they are not Wardens. In the case above the Tyrells would actually be under Crown jurisdiction, but aiding another Ward. Hence they would fall under Baratheon command while in their fiefdom due to equal peerage. Of course like I said before, whatever the Crown says goes and if there is a blanket command that Wardens outrank anyone, even in their own lands fighting for their own cause, then that's what the deal is.

The Crownlands are not a wardenship they are the direct lands of the crown itself so in that regard they are not even one of the fiefdoms.

The Wardens are each supposed to have command of a quarter of the realms forces in they event of war/invasion, so they would outrank anyone who is not the king, the hand of the king or an other warden (and off course anyone the king appoints at his whim). But this is only in times of war in peace time its an honorary title and as such they are of equal peerage when it comes to there title/fiefdom, but the wardens have an hereditary title that places them in command in times of war even over someone of equal peerage.

I think you should liken it to the Great Officers of the Crown of France, the small council and the wardens are basically the westeros equivalent of this, with a few differences off course like the wardenships being (semi)-hereditary instead of appointments. I say semi because as we see with king Robert naming Jaime Lannister warden of the east over the hereditary candidate Robert Arryn the king does have to confirm the wardenship and can if he feels the hereditary candidate is not suitable name someone else. Thus confirming that the wardenship is technically despite the hereditary nature an appointment by the Crown. 

Basically like @Shouldve Taken The Black said "So, the short answer is that the title is hereditary apart from the times when it’s not."

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yes and no. Robert and Ned do discuss it in some detail. It is assumed that the title is passed on along with all the others, but Robert overrules that (due to Cersei’s influence), and argues that such a military role shouldn’t go to a sickly boy.

Cersei gives the title to Daven after Tywin’s death, which in effect makes him commander of the Lannister forces (until Jaime turns up). Whether this is normal practice when a woman inherits, or because they were actively at war and she needed someone “in the field” to hold the title, rather than herself, who knows?

So, the short answer is that the title is hereditary apart from the times when it’s not.

I'm quite confused now, I'd totally forgotten that the title was re-appointed to others after Tywin's death. You said that it went to Davenport, and then to Jaime, but you also said it went back to the Vale...? Wo exactly holds the title now? 

I'm also wondering how the territories are devided amongst the wardens. Warden of the North is just the North? The south appears to include the Reach and Dorne, but I suppose the Stormlands could also be included... Stormlands could also be part of the East though, together with the Vale and the Crownlands. That leaves the Westerlands and Riverlands to the West. Well the Iron Islands too.. Although they might be included in the wardenship of the North too. 

Also, since I believe that the Wardenships are meant for outside threats, every warden should have a decent fleet. The North would have the apparently meagre fleet of the Manderlys. East has the fleet of King's Landing/Dragonstone, South has the Redwyne Fleet. That would leave only the Ironborn fleet for the West, so I suppose the Iron Islands most likely belong to the West wardenship.

When can wardens make independent decisions/take on their role? I mean there is an outside threat from the south-east right now (Aegon), but there's no indication that the Wardens of south and east have been instructed to take charge of their regions, and brace for impact.. I know that Aegon arrived unexpected, and is underestimated, but I wonder if and when the wardens will become important. Will they be activated when Dany arrives? 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

The Crownlands are not a wardenship they are the direct lands of the crown itself so in that regard they are not even one of the fiefdoms.

The Wardens are each supposed to have command of a quarter of the realms forces in they event of war/invasion, so they would outrank anyone who is not the king, the hand of the king or an other warden (and off course anyone the king appoints at his whim). But this is only in times of war in peace time its an honorary title and as such they are of equal peerage when it comes to there title/fiefdom, but the wardens have an hereditary title that places them in command in times of war even over someone of equal peerage.

@Shouldve Taken The Black

If the Crownlands are not under control of any warden, then the warden of the East only has control of the Vale and possibly the Stormlands. This would also leave the East without any significant fleet, even though the greatest possible threats from outside the realm, are most likely to come from the east and south. 

I'm quite sure that SOMEONE must be capable to give orders to the Crownlands if both the King and the Hand are indisposed. Someone must be able to give an order to the Royal Fleet if KL is being attacked, and the King and Hand are out dancing so to say. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

15 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I'm quite confused now, I'd totally forgotten that the title was re-appointed to others after Tywin's death. You said that it went to Davenport, and then to Jaime, but you also said it went back to the Vale...? Wo exactly holds the title now? 

No, Daven remains Warden of the West, he's still in command of the Lannister forces, at least in theory. Jaime just took over command of all the Crown's forces at Riverrun in the name of the king.

16 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I'm also wondering how the territories are devided amongst the wardens. Warden of the North is just the North? The south appears to include the Reach and Dorne, but I suppose the Stormlands could also be included... Stormlands could also be part of the East though, together with the Vale and the Crownlands. That leaves the Westerlands and Riverlands to the West. Well the Iron Islands too.. Although they might be included in the wardenship of the North too. 

It's never made clear. It's a really underdeveloped concept in the series.

17 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Also, since I believe that the Wardenships are meant for outside threats, every warden should have a decent fleet. The North would have the apparently meagre fleet of the Manderlys. East has the fleet of King's Landing/Dragonstone, South has the Redwyne Fleet. That would leave only the Ironborn fleet for the West, so I suppose the Iron Islands most likely belong to the West wardenship.

Plenty of lords have ships. The feudal structure means that any Lord Paramount/Warden/King would rely on whatever his vassals can provide, or he can build from his own funds.

19 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

When can wardens make independent decisions/take on their role? I mean there is an outside threat from the south-east right now (Aegon), but there's no indication that the Wardens of south and east have been instructed to take charge of their regions, and brace for impact.. I know that Aegon arrived unexpected, and is underestimated, but I wonder if and when the wardens will become important. Will they be activated when Dany arrives? 

To be fair, due to the civil war, any semblance of structure has pretty much broken down. People are just cobbling together armies from whatever allegiances and alliances they have.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

13 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I'm quite sure that SOMEONE must be capable to give orders to the Crownlands if both the King and the Hand are indisposed.

Is that likely? If the king and the hand are so busy as to not rally an army, that sounds like a major crisis. You would imagine the small council, or whoever has any semblance of authority in KL having some sort of crisis meeting to straighten such things out.

[direpupy]

33 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

If the Crownlands are not under control of any warden, then the warden of the East only has control of the Vale and possibly the Stormlands. This would also leave the East without any significant fleet, even though the greatest possible threats from outside the realm, are most likely to come from the east and south. 

I'm quite sure that SOMEONE must be capable to give orders to the Crownlands if both the King and the Hand are indisposed. Someone must be able to give an order to the Royal Fleet if KL is being attacked, and the King and Hand are out dancing so to say. 

I think you misunderstand me here, that the Crownlands are not a wardenship itself does not mean the troops from there do not fall under one of the four wardenships in case of war.

But even if they would not by virtue of being the direct vassals of the King that would still not be much of a problem.

In the case of the royal fleet it is simple, that's what the Master of Ships is for, as a matter fact i am not even sure the wardens have authority over fleets since they are only mentioned to lead armies. (Although it would make sense for them to be able to command fleets as well)

As to the command of troops from the Crownlands, since those are the Kings personal lands, command in his absence and they absence of the Hand of the King (and assuming there is no warden at hand either) would work the same way as for any other noble. His Master-at-Arms and his Captain of the Guards  would lead in the Kings name. Apart from that one would think that the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is an authority in matters of war as well. 

And if the crisis is big enough the small council should be able to appoint someone in the name of the King, even if he and his Hand are not around. I imagine that the Master of Law might have some authority in these kind of appointments in such cases.

[Rufus Snow]

10 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Which bolsters my assumption that the title is hereditary. Regencies are common enough.

No, quite the opposite. The Wardenship is not hereditary de jure, although is often inherited de facto. There is a world of difference between 'hereditary' and 'inherited'. There is no birthright in a Wardenship, at least since the Conquest - it's in the gift of the Crown, and King Robert made that clear regarding Sweetrobin. Usually the Crown will bestow it on the heir of the previous incumbent, but is under no obligation do so.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No, Daven remains Warden of the West, he's still in command of the Lannister forces, at least in theory. Jaime just took over command of all the Crown's forces at Riverrun in the name of the king.

It's never made clear. It's a really underdeveloped concept in the series.

Plenty of lords have ships. The feudal structure means that any Lord Paramount/Warden/King would rely on whatever his vassals can provide, or he can build from his own funds.

To be fair, due to the civil war, any semblance of structure has pretty much broken down. People are just cobbling together armies from whatever allegiances and alliances they have.

Yeah it's utterly confusing, it definitely doesn't help that the Riverlands for instance sided with Robbie, and the Arryns did nothing, so we couldn't see Tywin as Warden of the West in action.

3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Is that likely? If the king and the hand are so busy as to not rally an army, that sounds like a major crisis. You would imagine the small council, or whoever has any semblance of authority in KL having some sort of crisis meeting to straighten such things out.

Hmm I think the Vale must be able to take control of the Crownland armies (although they're quite meagre) is necessary. Let's look at a hypothetical pre-war situation:

Robert is King, Ned is Hand, Sweetrobyn is warden of the East, and there is a big outside threat. Robert would be the kind of King to lead his armies himself, but let's say he doesn't, because it's unwise. Robert remains to defend King's Landing "just in case", but let's say KL isn't threatened, instead a huge Braavosi armie is attacking the East coast of the North. 

Ned, as warden of the North, takes on his duty to defend the North, which only includes the North.

The North starts to lose. What's next? Sweetrobyn starts helping out (on orders of the king) as Lord paramount of the Vale,  and attacks the Braavosi as well. 

Still no succes. Robert sends ALL his armies, only keeping some ships and the city watch to protect KL.

So in the field Ned commands ghehe North, Tywin the West (Riverlands, Westerling, possibly Iron Islands). Tyrell commands the South (it may be that this doesn't include Dorne, since they're special, which means at least the Reach, and possibly the Stormlands, unless the Stormlands fall under the command of the East).

So WHO commands the armies of the Crownlands in this situation? Sure it could be Ned, but the Hand doesn't necessarily have to be there, unless he was a Warden, he could've stayed in KL as well, and have Robb act as warden in his stead. Someone must automatically be the one to have that command in the field,  especially with the fleet being there etc. These four wardens have to be able to sit together, and make a battle plan etc that includes a plan for the Royal fleet,  right? 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

18 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I think you misunderstand me here, that the Crownlands are not a wardenship itself does not mean the troops from there do not fall under one of the four wardenships in case of war.

But even if they would not by virtue of being the direct vassals of the King that would still not be much of a problem.

In the case of the royal fleet it is simple, that's what the Master of Ships is for, as a matter fact i am not even sure the wardens have authority over fleets since they are only mentioned to lead armies. (Although it would make sense for them to be able to command fleets as well)

As to the command of troops from the Crownlands, since those are the Kings personal lands, command in his absence and they absence of the Hand of the King (and assuming there is no warden at hand either) would work the same way as for any other noble. His Master-at-Arms and his Captain of the Guards  would lead in the Kings name. Apart from that one would think that the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is an authority in matters of war as well. 

And if the crisis is big enough the small council should be able to appoint someone in the name of the King, even if he and his Hand are not around. I imagine that the Master of Law might have some authority in these kind of appointments in such cases.

I disagree, the Master of Ships is not necessarily the commander of ships in the field all functions of the Small Council, are advisory functions, and they are meant to stay in the Red Keep / with the king, unless the king orders them to do otherwise. They're not martial positions at all. The Master of Ships basically advises the king about how many ships to build, is responsible for their maintenance, and advises the king in where and when to use them. 

He just also happens to be a great commander of the fleet, but that doesn't automatically mean that he is personally in charge of the Royal fleet when that fleet is being used elsewhere. Someone would also need to stay in KL to command the rest of the fleet when KL is being attacked while a large chunk of the fleet is needed elsewhere. 

The thing is that these Warden positions seem to be a mostly in the field job, when decisions have to be made quickly, without the King being present. There are basically 4 people who have ultimate power in that moment, and their votes have equal bearing. I also think that this is why Ned was so worried about Tywin, he'd basically get 2 votes in a war council.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

21 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Hmm I think the Vale must be able to take control of the Crownland armies (although they're quite meagre) is necessary. Let's look at a hypothetical pre-war situation:

Robert is King, Ned is Hand, Sweetrobyn is warden of the East, and there is a big outside threat. Robert would be the kind of King to lead his armies himself, but let's say he doesn't, because it's unwise. Robert remains to defend King's Landing "just in case", but let's say KL isn't threatened, instead a huge Braavosi armie is attacking the East coast of the North. 

Ned, as warden of the North, takes on his duty to defend the North, which only includes the North.

The North starts to lose. What's next? Sweetrobyn starts helping out (on orders of the king) as Lord paramount of the Vale,  and attacks the Braavosi as well. 

Still no succes. Robert sends ALL his armies, only keeping some ships and the city watch to protect KL.

So in the field Ned commands ghehe North, Tywin the West (Riverlands, Westerling, possibly Iron Islands). Tyrell commands the South (it may be that this doesn't include Dorne, since they're special, which means at least the Reach, and possibly the Stormlands, unless the Stormlands fall under the command of the East).

So WHO commands the armies of the Crownlands in this situation? Sure it could be Ned, but the Hand doesn't necessarily have to be there, unless he was a Warden, he could've stayed in KL as well, and have Robb act as warden in his stead. Someone must automatically be the one to have that command in the field,  especially with the fleet being there etc. These four wardens have to be able to sit together, and make a battle plan etc that includes a plan for the Royal fleet,  right? 

No offence, but I think you’re looking for a clearly defined set of rules, when there aren’t any. The Wardens are there so that there’s a clear leader in place when an army of several of the kingdoms goes to war, however nothing’s set in stone, and can be amended as necessary. The king (and by extension, their hand) can simply say who is in charge of what whenever they want to. So, in your scenario, the Crownland soldiers can simply be ordered to obey whichever lord the king feels is suitable. Similarly, the Tyrells are wardens of the south, but in an active military situation, the king decides that overall command of southern troops should go to a Lannister, then that’s what will happen.

[direpupy]

Just now, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I disagree, the Master of Ships is not necessarily the commander of ships in the field all functions of the Small Council, are advisory functions, and they are meant to stay in the Red Keep / with the king, unless the king orders them to do otherwise. They're not martial positions at all. The Master of Ships basically advises the king about how many ships to build, is responsible for their maintenance, and advises the king in where and when to use them. 

Okay so this is wrong outright, because we not only have Stannis as King Robert's Master of Ships commanding the fleet on several occasions we also have Daemon Velaryon leading Aegon I's fleet in battle as the Master of Ships and we have Alyn Velaryon as Daeron I's Master of Ships commanding the fleet during the conquest of Dorne. So that is three examples of the Master of Ships being the commander of the Royal fleet while we never hear of anyone else but The Master of Ships commanding the royal fleet. So no the Master of Ships is not an advisory function he is actually the commander of the Royal fleet.

Likewise Master of Coin is not an advisory function either but is actually in charge of the realms finances, overseeing and appointing all kinds of people, as we see when Tyrion laments Petyr has appointed people loyal to him all over the place in his time as Master of Coin

We actually have a list of people who answer to the Master of coin:

the four Keepers of the Keys

the King's Counter

the King's Scales

the officers in charge of mints

harbormasters 

tax farmers

customs sergeants 

wool factors 

toll collectors 

pursers 

wine factors

The Master of whisperers is the kings spy master and as such leads the Kings spy network so not an advisory function.

The Hand of the King is basically the realms chancellor and is in charge in absence of the King speaking in his name once again not an advisory function.

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is also a member, but his duty's very clearly go beyond advising the king he is in charge of the Kings primary bodyguard and responsible for his safety in general.

The only two for who an argument can be made that the function is advisory are the Master of Law and the Grand Maester.

So i think we can savely say the small council is not of an advisory nature at all.

14 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 Someone would also need to stay in KL to command the rest of the fleet when KL is being attacked while a large chunk of the fleet is needed elsewhere. 

That's what you have subordinate commanders fore, you put one of your senior captains in charge of part of the fleet. We see this happen in the Iron Fleet when Victarion divides his fleet in three parts.

31 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

The thing is that these Warden positions seem to be a mostly in the field job, when decisions have to be made quickly, without the King being present. There are basically 4 people who have ultimate power in that moment, and their votes have equal bearing. I also think that this is why Ned was so worried about Tywin, he'd basically get 2 votes in a war council.

Now this i agree with.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

9 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Okay so this is wrong outright, because we not only have Stannis as King Robert's Master of Ships commanding the fleet on several occasions we also have Daemon Velaryon leading Aegon I's fleet in battle as the Master of Ships and we have Alyn Velaryon as Daeron I's Master of Ships commanding the fleet during the conquest of Dorne. So that is three examples of the Master of Ships being the commander of the Royal fleet while we never hear of anyone else but The Master of Ships commanding the royal fleet. So no the Master of Ships is not an advisory function he is actually the commander of the Royal fleet.

Likewise Master of Coin is not an advisory function either but is actually in charge of the realms finances, overseeing and appointing all kinds of people, as we see when Tyrion laments Petyr has appointed people loyal to him all over the place in his time as Master of Coin

We actually have a list of people who answer to the Master of coin:

the four Keepers of the Keys

the King's Counter

the King's Scales

the officers in charge of mints

harbormasters 

tax farmers

customs sergeants 

wool factors 

toll collectors 

pursers 

wine factors

The Master of whisperers is the kings spy master and as such leads the Kings spy network so not an advisory function.

The Hand of the King is basically the realms chancellor and is in charge in absence of the King speaking in his name once again not an advisory function.

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is also a member, but his duty's very clearly go beyond advising the king he is in charge of the Kings primary bodyguard and responsible for his safety in general.

The only two for who an argument can be made that the function is advisory are the Master of Law and the Grand Maester.

So i think we can savely say the small council is not of an advisory nature at all.

That's what you have subordinate commanders fore, you put one of your senior captains in charge of part of the fleet. We see this happen in the Iron Fleet when Victarion divides his fleet in three parts.

Now this i agree with.

You appear to be right. It does however raise the question what authority one member of the Small Council would have in the field in absence of both king and hand. The only one who can make decisions in name of the king, is the Hand. Perhaps the small council can do the same in absence of both, but only unanimous I would guess, not on their own. So my guess is that the Master of Ships would either fall under the command of one of the wardens (unless the king or hand has appointed a supreme commander, which would probably be the usual way), or he may get an equal vote,  but that would diminish the power of the Wardens significantly, if say two members of the Small Council would be present. It would also be confusing. 

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, Trefayne said:

They might hope to marry into the gentry, but no self respecting noble would ever let a common merchant into their family. And a merchant wouldn't be a freeman unless he or one of his ancestors had bought their freedom from their lord, or were granted it for some other service; at least in our history. Until then, they would be classed as a villein. Whores would be at the bottom of the heap of society with the cotters. Thieves are outlaws and aren't classed in that sense, but yeah, they are looked down upon unless they are heroes of the commons.

Again, this is in our history. In the books it has been very simplified. There seems to be no real indication of any of this type of thing among the peasantry. An inn keeper is much the same as a farmer in our exposure as far as legal rights and avenues of redress, i.e. none.

omg I'm so slow....

Thought you were talking in-world-on-page ratios  

 

edit: #girlsplaining

[Three-Fingered Pete]

15 hours ago, Trefayne said:

You guys have lost me. When did the Vale get stripped of the Wardenship of the east?

 

15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

When Jon Arryn died, it’s mentioned in Eddard II. The title was restored to House Arryn at some point in ASOS.

 

15 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Which bolsters my assumption that the title is hereditary. Regencies are common enough.

 

OK, I just read this chapter and you guys are correct about he Wardenships not being hereditary. Terminology is important in this context.

Ned asks Robert about appointing a new Warden of the East and then expresses inner concern about Jamie Lannister being appointed because of the aforementioned issue of Tywin having half the armies of the realm under his influence. Robert seems to think that isn't a problem because Jaime is now attached to him through his sister and the KG position.

Stannis is also brought up as a viable replacement due to his military prowess and position on Dragonstone (the conversation takes place in the context of a possible Dothraki invasion), but Robert shoots that down (of course).

So it would seem that at least three of the requirements of the appointment of a Wardenship are:

1) High enough of a noble birth to warrant the respect needed to hold the position.

2) The military knowhow and experience to command and field such a large campaign.

3) Geographical proximity to the potential threat.

 

I still maintain that the Crownlands are held as a Wardenship of the Crown, at least in practice if not in a formalized nomenclature, and that the Stormlands are a part of it. The Vale is too far to provide quick protection and I don't think that the Baratheons would tolerate the Tyrells in that capacity (the Tyrells rallied under Renly quick enough), but I could just be reading this dynamic into things.

[direpupy]

17 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

You appear to be right. It does however raise the question what authority one member of the Small Council would have in the field in absence of both king and hand. The only one who can make decisions in name of the king, is the Hand. Perhaps the small council can do the same in absence of both, but only unanimous I would guess, not on their own. So my guess is that the Master of Ships would either fall under the command of one of the wardens (unless the king or hand has appointed a supreme commander, which would probably be the usual way), or he may get an equal vote,  but that would diminish the power of the Wardens significantly, if say two members of the Small Council would be present. It would also be confusing. 

The Master of Ship position is a permanent position or rather a position that grants power regardless of weather it is peace or war, while the Wardens only have power in times of war. As such (following how these things went in real world situations) the Master of Ships position would be the more prestigious and prominent position and thus take presidency over the Warden.

So i think it is they other way around, the Master of Ships in a direct dispute with a Warden would outrank the Warden.

In the case of there being multiple Wardens involved however, it might be resolved by a vote but even there if there is a tie in the vote i think the Master of Ships vote would be decisive and used as tiebreaker.

As to they other members of the Small Counsil there field's of work/authority do not involve commanding troops i doubt they would be present at a war council. At most in absence of the King and his Hand they might name a supreme commander in the Kings name but i do think such a vote would have to be unanimous in order for them to be able to force such a decision on the Wardens and Lord Paramounts.

[direpupy]

14 hours ago, Trefayne said:

OK, I just read this chapter and you guys are correct about he Wardenships not being hereditary. Terminology is important in this context.

Ned asks Robert about appointing a new Warden of the East and then expresses inner concern about Jamie Lannister being appointed because of the aforementioned issue of Tywin having half the armies of the realm under his influence. Robert seems to think that isn't a problem because Jaime is now attached to him through his sister and the KG position.

Stannis is also brought up as a viable replacement due to his military prowess and position on Dragonstone (the conversation takes place in the context of a possible Dothraki invasion), but Robert shoots that down (of course).

So it would seem that at least three of the requirements of the appointment of a Wardenship are:

1) High enough of a noble birth to warrant the respect needed to hold the position.

2) The military knowhow and experience to command and field such a large campaign.

3) Geographical proximity to the potential threat.

 

I still maintain that the Crownlands are held as a Wardenship of the Crown, at least in practice if not in a formalized nomenclature, and that the Stormlands are a part of it. The Vale is too far to provide quick protection and I don't think that the Baratheons would tolerate the Tyrells in that capacity (the Tyrells rallied under Renly quick enough), but I could just be reading this dynamic into things.

The Crownlands are the personnel lands of the king so unless that is what you mean by Wardenship i have to disagree, i also see no reason why the Stormlands would be part of this.

As to the Tyrells rallying behind Renly that's because  he was making a claim to the throne as the brother of the late King not because he was the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Historically under the Targaryen dynasty this dynamic would not be present. In those days the situation would be that you have two Lord Paramount's of who one is Warden and one is not, so the Baratheons at that time not the royal house would not have much choise and would have to follow they orders of the Tyrell's as they are Warden's and the Baratheons are not.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

18 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

I still maintain that the Crownlands are held as a Wardenship of the Crown, at least in practice if not in a formalized nomenclature, and that the Stormlands are a part of it

Do you mean the Stormlands are part of the Crownlands, or that they are under the "wardenship of the crown"? Either way you're wrong I'm afraid.

The Stormlands are entirely separate from the Crownlands, that's well established.

There's no mention in any such thing as a "Wardenship of the Crown" in any of the books or canon or semi-canon sources. It's not a thing.