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Would you let Samwell inherit Hornhill?


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9 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I would imagine that depends on the character confronted with said problem. There are probably many lords who subscribe to the Randyll school of thought on toughening kids up. I don't see someone like Ned Stark or Doran Martell behaving like that though.

None of their kids were as seemingly as pathetic as Sam, though it should be noted that we are talking about direct heirs. If Sam was not the oldest son there likely would not be the same issue. 

But I think you might be surprised, Doran had his own daughter locked up for weeks not allowed to have any news of the outside world, not allowing her to know if her friends were still alive while he has sent his son, around the same age as Sam, on a suicide mission.  At a young age he was sent away

Doran clearly would not have allowed them to grow up soft, they are important part of his long term plans against the crown. 

Ned also would not have allowed hiss heir to grow up soft. 

"Is he afraid?" Ned asked.

 "A little," she admitted. "He is only three."

 Ned frowned. "He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever. And winter is coming."

or contrast Sam crying over dead chickens with Ned's lesson to Bran

 They set forth at daybreak to see a man beheaded, twenty in all, and Bran rode among them, nervous with excitement. This was the first time he had been deemed old enough to go with his lord father and his brothers to see the king's justice done. It was the ninth year of summer, and the seventh of Bran's life.

Neither Doran or Ned would allow their heirs to turn out soft, they'd certainly not just accept a 'Sam'. 

 

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It occurs to me that Doran is a useful example here. His mother clearly raised him to be a good lord (that's probably controversial, but then everything is on here, so I'll just power through), despite a clear lack of "toughness"/machismo. Her certainly made a better lord than tough-guy Oberyn.

Doran was sent to squire for Lord Gargalen, he would have done the basic military training that the majority of male nobles undertook. Te reason why people assume he is weak is that he is ill, but that has not always been the case. And of course he is not a pushover, when Oberyn fucked up in his youth he was temporarily exiled, his wife left left him as he refused her wishes to keep the children close while he is the main reason Dorne has not rebelled. Keeping the peace requires control. 

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In all seriousness, yes, Sam has displayed flaws, particularly a lack of physical bravery and some mental fragility, throughout the series. But my contention is that we have seen enough of his character to show he has some great qualities which, if nurtured, will lead him to great things. I actually think that's pretty much the essence of his character arc.

Of course we can all recognize the great qualities in Sam, we are all sitting on our butt's analayzing a book series, Sam would fit right in with us, but the trouble is that their society would not recognize them, certainly not as someone who is supposed to lead. 

 

2 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

I agree with you; however, allow me to put forth an idea.  Suppose Samwell is the lord of Hornhill.  He can hire a harder man to enforce his will and lead his knights to battle for him.  

What is stopping this man abusing his position? Look at Bronn, married into a second daughter of a House he has now rid himself of his rivals and basically rules the House kicking out Lolly's sister. Or Littlefinger who has just given away the Arryn's winter residence to gain more support for himself.

 

This is precisely why Sam would be a poor choice, he seems an easy target who will lie down and give up rather than fight for himself. 

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3 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

I agree with you; however, allow me to put forth an idea.  Suppose Samwell is the lord of Hornhill.  He can hire a harder man to enforce his will and lead his knights to battle for him.  

Sam has no will, anyone given this position would basically be the lord of Horn Hill and just exploit it. 

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Sam might not be much as a warlord, but he's a superb politician in the making. He ran Jon's "campaign"--even though Jon didn't know he had one--as shrewdly as anyone who's ever gotten a President elected.

So, yes.  Lordship can be exercised in ways that don't depend on combat.

 

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7 hours ago, Kat Scott said:

Sam might not be much as a warlord, but he's a superb politician in the making. He ran Jon's "campaign"--even though Jon didn't know he had one--as shrewdly as anyone who's ever gotten a President elected.

So, yes.  Lordship can be exercised in ways that don't depend on combat.

 

Yeah no one is expecting Sam to be some great warrior, hell some of the greatest rulers in history weren't great fighters (Augustus Ceasare, Alfred the great etc), but they were hard men, men who would not buckle when confronted by the slightest bit of aggression out putted by their enemies. 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Neither Doran or Ned would allow their heirs to turn out soft, they'd certainly not just accept a 'Sam'. 

 

True. Ned isn't as progressive as many would like to pretend-he's still a lord of medeval society, a son like Sam would be ashame to him, he would likely not "ease up on the boy in training due to the boy crying, and I imagine he would fall into Tarley's trap of thinking "if I pressure a little more then he'll suceed", failing that the boy would be disinherited. I don't think Ned would have threatened his weak son into joining the brotherhood. But then again I don't think Tarly's threat was serious(philicide would literally be the worse kinslaying imagineble, and Tarly has shown to be a man to respect the seven), but merely a bluff; if Sam said no this one time where his birth right is at stake in the face of threats, even if it could cost him his life, such a  an act would show Randyl the boy has some hope of redemption.

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18 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

In Randyll's position, I hope I'd be much less of a douchebag daddy, and let Sam go to the Citadel. House Tarly might be better off (I don't think I've seen enough of Dickon to judge him yet), but the Citadel will probably end up with its greatest ever Archmaester.

Sam could still be a liability however, maestors can leave without being executed, a family ould snap Sam up marry them to one of their female kin for his claim to hornhill.

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9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Neither Doran or Ned would allow their heirs to turn out soft, they'd certainly not just accept a 'Sam'. 

I imagine they would both try to toughen him up. I just think they both seem more capable of empathy and would not use methods like Randyll's, which were clearly counter-productive. Like smacking a kid for wetting the bed.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Doran was sent to squire for Lord Gargalen, he would have done the basic military training that the majority of male nobles undertook. Te reason why people assume he is weak is that he is ill, but that has not always been the case. And of course he is not a pushover, when Oberyn fucked up in his youth he was temporarily exiled, his wife left left him as he refused her wishes to keep the children close while he is the main reason Dorne has not rebelled. Keeping the peace requires control. 

No disagreement here, and we don't know what Doran was really like as a kid. But his key feature is his intellect, and he's also not afraid to appear weak to his vassals or rivals.

 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

their society would not recognize them, certainly not as someone who is supposed to lead.

True, but there are plenty of lords that appear weak who manage to get ahead. The perception is a problem, just not an insurmountable. There are also plenty of clever lords and people generally who would manage to look past his obvious flaws and recognise the strengths.

 

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14 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

Has Samwell really changed?  I'm far from convinced.

I think so. He's endured quite a bit, and I think he has learned that there are some things worth fighting for. It's hard to judge his character before the story starts, but from what I understand, it seems that growing up he was all about shirking his responsibilities as lord-in-waiting while indulging himself on all its privileges.

And even the first time we see him, he covers up and begs for mercy within the first few minutes of training. Compared that with his attack on the Other and his fight with Dareon in Braavos. He is now a man who sees his duty and does it despite the risk to himself.

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On 8/7/2018 at 7:01 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

It's a difficult position for the father.  Sam had all the rights by law.  I second the option of letting go to the citadel.   Although it is still risky.  What if Sam flunks out and decides to come home.  The inheritance is still his.  Accidental death and the Wall are the only permanent solutions.

If Sam failed at the Citadel I'd try to get him into the Faith. I'm sure that with a generous donation something could be arranged in some off the road septry, where Sam can read books and not do much else.

*****

I've noticed that lots of people compare Samwell to Tytos, and there are similarities but I think there's another character a Lord Samwell Tarly could also be very similar, Lord Ambrose Butterwell. The thing with Tytos is that we see that Tytos has kin who will stand up for him and a king to bail Tytos out. Samwell on the other hand has no similar kin to fend for him that about, nor do I know if he would have a solid relation with Highgarden to got his back covered. He'd be very open to become a puppet for his master-of-arms or some such who can get the respect and loyalty of the troops which Samwell would struggle with.

I mean we see that Tom Heddle does not exactly have his lord's best interests at heart and runs Whitewalls more than Lord Ambrose while Rohanne Webber gives some information on how fragile a position of feudal rule could easily become if you don't show people they can't hope to push you around, both with her neighbors and with regards to Lucas Inchfield.

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3 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:
On August 7, 2018 at 10:01 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

If Sam failed at the Citadel I'd try to get him into the Faith. I'm sure that with a generous donation something could be arranged in some off the road septry, where Sam can read books and not do much else.

Does deserting the faith warrant the death penalty? Seriously asking here.

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On 8/8/2018 at 1:28 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I imagine they would both try to toughen him up. I just think they both seem more capable of empathy and would not use methods like Randyll's, which were clearly counter-productive. Like smacking a kid for wetting the bed.

I agree they were counterproductive, but their society knew no better, none of the 10 different master of arms tried a softer approach and Jon thinks he is a lost cause who is never going to learn. 

Ned talks about toughening up his 3 year son, I don't think the dutiful Ned, who takes ruling the north incredibly seriously, would gamble with methods that are pretty alien to most of the nobility of westeros with the heir of Winterfell. There would be too much at stake. 

Randyll was dealing with an issue that few, if any, of his peers were having to deal with, he was put in a position of being a shitty father or a shitty lord and he put his House first. 

On 8/8/2018 at 1:28 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No disagreement here, and we don't know what Doran was really like as a kid. But his key feature is his intellect, and he's also not afraid to appear weak to his vassals or rivals.

I don't know about that, his chief rival is Yronwood and he appears to be a co conspirator, Oberyn has his back while Arryn sent much time in Dorne hammering out peace with the man. Tywin also seems to resect him. 

The people who don't are primarily his daughter and nieces up until they put him to the test. 

On 8/8/2018 at 1:28 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

True, but there are plenty of lords that appear weak who manage to get ahead. The perception is a problem, just not an insurmountable. There are also plenty of clever lords and people generally who would manage to look past his obvious flaws and recognise the strengths.

but they also have strong wills, that is what is holding Sam back. Him unwilling to train, giving  at the first hurdle is a symptom of that. Lady Waynwood seems an excellent ruler, Cat certainly could have became an effective one. What Sam was lacking was a backbone and unfortunately it was well known throughput the Reach. He was going to be a target. 

 

On 8/8/2018 at 6:26 PM, LionoftheWest said:

If Sam failed at the Citadel I'd try to get him into the Faith. I'm sure that with a generous donation something could be arranged in some off the road septry, where Sam can read books and not do much else.

 

The life of a Septon may be just as hard, the idea of Sam leading a life like Meribald seems unlikely. 

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On 8/8/2018 at 1:26 PM, LionoftheWest said:

If Sam failed at the Citadel I'd try to get him into the Faith. I'm sure that with a generous donation something could be arranged in some off the road septry, where Sam can read books and not do much else.

*****

I've noticed that lots of people compare Samwell to Tytos, and there are similarities but I think there's another character a Lord Samwell Tarly could also be very similar, Lord Ambrose Butterwell. The thing with Tytos is that we see that Tytos has kin who will stand up for him and a king to bail Tytos out. Samwell on the other hand has no similar kin to fend for him that about, nor do I know if he would have a solid relation with Highgarden to got his back covered. He'd be very open to become a puppet for his master-of-arms or some such who can get the respect and loyalty of the troops which Samwell would struggle with.

I mean we see that Tom Heddle does not exactly have his lord's best interests at heart and runs Whitewalls more than Lord Ambrose while Rohanne Webber gives some information on how fragile a position of feudal rule could easily become if you don't show people they can't hope to push you around, both with her neighbors and with regards to Lucas Inchfield.

Good comparison to Butterwell and Webber.  Sam needs a woman like Lady Dustin to marry.  She knows what to do to run his estate and Sam can continue to play dress up with her wardrobe.

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On 8/6/2018 at 9:52 PM, The Pink Letter said:

This is another controversial post on Samwell.  You play Lord Tarly.  Your eldest son is Samwell.  Hornhill is his by right of birth.  So do you give him Hornhill and your title?  

No.  Sam would fail his people.  

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Given that I would be the asshole who made him a neurotic wretch to begin with it is a sort of a disingenuous question. 

Sam's temerity goes beyond normal levels. It is the result of abuse. He is a self-fulfilling prophecy for his father. He is starting to get over it, so with a bit more work he could make a perfectly fine lord. 

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