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Would you let Samwell inherit Hornhill?

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This is another controversial post on Samwell.  You play Lord Tarly.  Your eldest son is Samwell.  Hornhill is his by right of birth.  So do you give him Hornhill and your title?  

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Absolutely not. Whilst I would have tried to come up with an alternative method to threatening to kill him or sending him to the Nights Watch, I don't think he is the right person to inherit Horn Hill. I would have let him go forge a maester's chain like he wanted to. 

If he inherited Horn Hill I imagine he would have been a less promiscuous version of Tytos Lannister, with everyone taking advantage of him due to him being weak willed. 

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In latter books it's clear, there was an earnest, honorable and in his own way brave person hidden under the abuse. Married to a strongwilled Lady Tarly and with the right maester advising him, Sam could've been a perfectly good Lord. He just wouldn't be the next Randyl Tarly, best soldier in the Realm.

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11 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

This is another controversial post on Samwell.  You play Lord Tarly.  Your eldest son is Samwell.  Hornhill is his by right of birth.  So do you give him Hornhill and your title?  

No, he had all the makings of another Tytos Lannister, but without the support of an Aegon V to help him control his lands when he frequently lost control.

Tarly could have died at any time, can you imagine Sam inheriting during the war of the five kings? Disastrous. 

 

3 hours ago, LordImp said:

Yes. Sam is very intelligent and will therefore be a good ruler. 

yeah. that is not how ruling works, especially not in the middle ages.

 

GRRM:  But I also want to respond—I’ve read a lot of history about feudal history and Roman history and so forth, about politics in those days. I follow contemporary politics. And you know, what strikes me is that these issues are horrid. And a lot of fantasy makes it seem simply: a good man will be a good king. Well, a good man is not always a good king. And a bad man is not always a bad king. You know, it’s much more complicated than that. It’s you know, I look at in my lifetime, I think probably the best man to serve as President in my lifetime was Jimmy Carter. As a human being, the best human being, but he was not a good President. He was not. General goodness did not automatically make flowers bloom.

Sam's intelligence would count for naught if no one listened to him and he continued to back down from every confrontation.  His vassals, neighbours and enemies would be aware that he was weak and would take advantage. 

 

1 hour ago, Denam_Pavel said:

In latter books it's clear, there was an earnest, honorable and in his own way brave person hidden under the abuse. Married to a strongwilled Lady Tarly 

Well Randyll actually tried to arrange Sam to marry the only daughter of Lord Redwyne, which would have offered him a powerful ally in the form of her family should he be in trouble, but unfortunately Sam was such a laughing stock on their short visit that Redwyne would not even consider him as a page.

Sam's marriage options would have been limited, he'd end up having to marry lesser stock, which would further weaken the House in terms of alliance. 

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Yes. I'd also probably not chain him up in a cellar for expressing intellectual curiosity. Because I'm not a psycho.

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he had all the makings of another Tytos Lannister

Did he though? We've seen Sam in action and he's no fool. Sure, he's a bit of a cream puff, but he was sharp enough to manipulate Mallister and Pyke when needed. From what we know of Tytos, he wouldn't have pulled that move off.

I think Sam would have made a good ruler if he hade a decent father who was able to cultivate his strengths rather than just persecute him for his weaknesses. The Sam we met in GOT probably would have been a terrible lord. The Sam we have got to know by AFFC would be a great one. All it took was for him to be taken away from his wanker father and put into the care of Joer Mormont, Maester Aemon and Jon Snow, and his qualities shined through.

Edited by Shouldve Taken The Black

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No way that I'd let Sam near either Heartsbane or the lordship title. Off he is to be maester, failing that a septon and failing that, I don't know what to make of him.

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33 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yes. I'd also probably not chain him up in a cellar for expressing intellectual curiosity. Because I'm not a psycho.

I don't think that is why he chained him up, at that point he had not actually given up on him and was desperate for Sam to toughen up, be able to stand up for him. 

Of course it failed but I don't think heirs like Sam were a common problem, the advice he would have gotten would have been to try extremes to strengthen his character. 

33 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Did he though? We've seen Sam in action and he's no fool.

There is no indication that Tytos was especially stupid, his issue is that he would allow everyone to walk over him. 

33 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

Sure, he's a bit of a cream puff, but he was sharp enough to manipulate Mallister and Pyke when needed. From what we know of Tytos, he wouldn't have pulled that move off.

Well yeah. Tytos is that top of the food chain in the Westerlands, Sam was able to manipulate two people ahead of him using the threat of Stannis while at the same time acting like he was talking on behalf of Aemon.  And it was not exactly a ploy, as great as it was, that he could regularly use. 

Sam manipulated them but Tytos can't use the same tactic. Aegon V had already came to save his ass a few times and that only made Tytos look weaker as the Lords knew that the more that happened the less respect the King would have for him. 

 

33 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

The Sam we met in GOT probably would have been a terrible lord. The Sam we have got to know by AFFC would be a great one.

Would he? At the Reach he runs into another Tyrell who clearly still see's Sam as a joke, someone to be disrespected. 

And while I do agree that Sam had grown by AFFC a big part of that was him coming face to face with something with a  bigger hardship than anything his father could have imagined. 

33 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

All it took was for him to be taken away from his wanker father and put into the care of Joer Mormont, Maester Aemon and Jon Snow, and his qualities shined through.

Well no, that is clearly wrong. He was constantly quitting, refusing to walk on the march, needing to be carried, giving up at Craster's when his friends were being killed, lying down to die when Gilly and her mother/sisters forced him to leave. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't think that is why he chained him up, at that point he had not actually given up on him and was desperate for Sam to toughen up, be able to stand up for him. 

Well yeah, that was his motivation. I still call psycho on that one, although I'll admit to judging him by 21st century "woke" standards.

 

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course it failed but I don't think heirs like Sam were a common problem, the advice he would have gotten would have been to try extremes to strengthen his character. 

I would imagine that depends on the character confronted with said problem. There are probably many lords who subscribe to the Randyll school of thought on toughening kids up. I don't see someone like Ned Stark or Doran Martell behaving like that though.

It occurs to me that Doran is a useful example here. His mother clearly raised him to be a good lord (that's probably controversial, but then everything is on here, so I'll just power through), despite a clear lack of "toughness"/machismo. Her certainly made a better lord than tough-guy Oberyn.

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is no indication that Tytos was especially stupid, his issue is that he would allow everyone to walk over him. 

It's definitely a matter of opinion, but I'd suggest constantly waiving debts is a sign of at the very least gullibility. I'd imagine Sam keeping detailed accounts and a sharp eye for interest rates. Again though, that's an opinion.

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sam manipulated them but Tytos can't use the same tactic. Aegon V had already came to save his ass a few times and that only made Tytos look weaker as the Lords knew that the more that happened the less respect the King would have for him. 

Of course, that particular example was very specific, but my point was more general. Sam displayed a degree of political savvy that Tytos didn't appear to. Comparisons or distinctions between these two very different characters are bound to be flawed.

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

At the Reach he runs into another Tyrell who clearly still see's Sam as a joke, someone to be disrespected.

Because he remembers Sam pre-black-taking. Sam also shows he has evolved in that particular meeting.

I'll grant you, Sam clearly has a bit of a PR problem - people do treat him lightly. That could be a strength however, having idiots underestimate you.

11 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And while I do agree that Sam had grown by AFFC a big part of that was him coming face to face with something with a  bigger hardship than anything his father could have imagined. 

Very true, and he revealed some proper inner strength when he came face to face with it.

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was constantly quitting, refusing to walk on the march, needing to be carried

To be fair, he, the fattest man on the march, managed to wrangle someone to carry him. I call that resourceful ;-)

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was constantly quitting, refusing to walk on the march, needing to be carried, giving up at Craster's when his friends were being killed, lying down to die when Gilly and her mother/sisters forced him to leave. 

In all seriousness, yes, Sam has displayed flaws, particularly a lack of physical bravery and some mental fragility, throughout the series. But my contention is that we have seen enough of his character to show he has some great qualities which, if nurtured, will lead him to great things. I actually think that's pretty much the essence of his character arc.

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In Randyll's position, I hope I'd be much less of a douchebag daddy, and let Sam go to the Citadel. House Tarly might be better off (I don't think I've seen enough of Dickon to judge him yet), but the Citadel will probably end up with its greatest ever Archmaester.

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It's a difficult position for the father.  Sam had all the rights by law.  I second the option of letting go to the citadel.   Although it is still risky.  What if Sam flunks out and decides to come home.  The inheritance is still his.  Accidental death and the Wall are the only permanent solutions.

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

In Randyll's position, I hope I'd be much less of a douchebag daddy, and let Sam go to the Citadel. House Tarly might be better off (I don't think I've seen enough of Dickon to judge him yet), but the Citadel will probably end up with its greatest ever Archmaester.

Dickon seems pretty cool in my book if solely for his role in putting an end to the wager for Brienne's maidenhood. Nor does Sam seem to have any unpleasant memories of him. 

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Pre Night's Watch I couldn't see Sam following through with becoming a maester either, it's a life of hard work and dedication. Sam just likes reading, being a maester is more than just reading. 

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17 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

This is another controversial post on Samwell.  You play Lord Tarly.  Your eldest son is Samwell.  Hornhill is his by right of birth.  So do you give him Hornhill and your title?  

It depends. Are we talking about Sam at the moment when Randyll packed him off to the wall, or Sam at the end of Feast, who endured the march to the Fist and the march back, slew an Other, brought a young girl and a baby out of the Haunted Forest, maneuvered Jon into the LC position, brought said girl and another baby halfway around the continent to Oldtown, caring for a dying old man and confronting a turncloak in the process...?

I think Sam has demonstrated some real character traits in the story. What I don't understand is why he couldn't have at least tried to meet his father's expectations just a little bit while growing up. It seems like he wanted all the finery and luxury of being highborn, but was unwilling to shoulder even the slightest responsibility. Would it have killed him to lay off the rich foods a little? To pick up a sword and learn how to use it? To endure even a modicum of pain and/or discomfort in exchange for the privileged life he was born into?

I see Randyll Tarly as a hard man and he undoubtedly has narrow-winded views on the world, and what people should and should not do given their station, their gender and other factors. But I don't think his intent was to turn Sam into a champion fighter and all-powerful lord -- just a man strong enough to lead other strong-willed men. Remember, Horn Hill is an extremely important castle strategically. It provides crucial support for Nightsong, and by extension High Garden, in case the Dornish invade up the Princes Pass. It takes a strong man to maintain such a castle, and there was no indication that Sam was up to the task by the time he is sent to the wall -- and this is probably Randyll's fault as much as Sam's.

But the fact remains that House Tarly is more important than any single individual Tarly, even the lord's eldest son. So Randyll had no choice in sending Sam away. It was for the good of his house, his liege and the people of the Reach.

The more important question, I think, is, given Randyll's disgust at his own son and his view that he is unfit to become Lord of Horn Hill, what does he think of Mace Tyrell, or Lady Olenna for that matter?

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10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he had all the makings of another Tytos Lannister, but without the support of an Aegon V to help him control his lands when he frequently lost control.

Tarly could have died at any time, can you imagine Sam inheriting during the war of the five kings? Disastrous. 

I agree with you; however, allow me to put forth an idea.  Suppose Samwell is the lord of Hornhill.  He can hire a harder man to enforce his will and lead his knights to battle for him.  

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It depends. Are we talking about Sam at the moment when Randyll packed him off to the wall, or Sam at the end of Feast, who endured the march to the Fist and the march back, slew an Other, brought a young girl and a baby out of the Haunted Forest, maneuvered Jon into the LC position, brought said girl and another baby halfway around the continent to Oldtown, caring for a dying old man and confronting a turncloak in the process...?

I think Sam has demonstrated some real character traits in the story. What I don't understand is why he couldn't have at least tried to meet his father's expectations just a little bit while growing up. It seems like he wanted all the finery and luxury of being highborn, but was unwilling to shoulder even the slightest responsibility. Would it have killed him to lay off the rich foods a little? To pick up a sword and learn how to use it? To endure even a modicum of pain and/or discomfort in exchange for the privileged life he was born into?

I see Randyll Tarly as a hard man and he undoubtedly has narrow-winded views on the world, and what people should and should not do given their station, their gender and other factors. But I don't think his intent was to turn Sam into a champion fighter and all-powerful lord -- just a man strong enough to lead other strong-willed men. Remember, Horn Hill is an extremely important castle strategically. It provides crucial support for Nightsong, and by extension High Garden, in case the Dornish invade up the Princes Pass. It takes a strong man to maintain such a castle, and there was no indication that Sam was up to the task by the time he is sent to the wall -- and this is probably Randyll's fault as much as Sam's.

But the fact remains that House Tarly is more important than any single individual Tarly, even the lord's eldest son. So Randyll had no choice in sending Sam away. It was for the good of his house, his liege and the people of the Reach.

The more important question, I think, is, given Randyll's disgust at his own son and his view that he is unfit to become Lord of Horn Hill, what does he think of Mace Tyrell, or Lady Olenna for that matter?

Has Samwell really changed?  I'm far from convinced.

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