Tyrion will ride Viserion

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion's parentage is designed in contrast to Jon.

Jon is what happens when a boy is adopted by a good father, loved and raised right. He'll become a hero.

Tyrion is the other side of the equation, GRRM asking himself what would happen to Jon if Ned wasn't Ned? He's already given away that Tyrion is a villain.

That is a rather limited view of the potential the Tyrion-Jon parallel plots actually contain.

If Tyrion is not Tywin's son then Tywin Lannister suddenly becomes a much better, perhaps even good father, if one keeps in mind that Tyrion is actually not just an ugly dwarf who killed his mother during his birth but a bastard, and possibly a child of rape.

Tywin becomes nearly a saint if we keep in mind that he raised a child which wasn't his seed and allowed him to bear his arms and colors. He made a Hill into a Lannister of Casterly Rock.

And Tyrion, being smart, will realize this. He'll also realize why his father couldn't love him and why he couldn't allow him to inherit Casterly Rock. He'll also realize that it wasn't *he* who was so disgusting to his father but much more the circumstances of his conception and birth. That will help him to understand himself better and to accept who he actually is - especially after he becomes a dragonrider.

Jon Snow, on the other hand, was (likely) the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but was forced to live the life of a bastard and was allowed to take the black without ever learning who he actually was. Ned loved him, sure, but he put him in a situation where the love and feelings he had for his cousins and aunt was twisted and warped. There is potential for understanding there, too, once Jon learns why exactly Ned did what he did, but also room for disappointment, resentment, and anger - especially when one thinks that Jon may have helped Robb and Cat to survive the war.

Also, for Tyrion it should be no big deal to shed his Lannister identity in favor of the status of a dragonseed - and subsequently likely the status of a legitimized Targaryen prince. After all, he killed his father and isn't exactly on good terms with either his sister or his brother. For Jon, on the other hand, the truth will come with the realization that he is not the son of Eddard Stark - which was all very important to him.

For Tyrion the revelation will mean freedom and opportunity. For Jon it might mean more confusion and uncertainty - depending when exactly he learns the truth. The worst case scenario in his case would be that he only learns part of the story, being confused over the reasons of the people involved.

In that sense the idea that Tyrion will become 'the villain' in this setting because he has had Tywin as 'a father' isn't very convincing to me. There might be still cause for conflict but not because Tyrion takes a back seat in the Dance. He'll be in camp Dany long before that war even starts. Unlike Aegon, Tyrion will ride one of Dany's dragons and that in and of itself is going to bring these two very closely together long before they even get to Westeros. Daenerys is looking for men who can ride her dragons. And once she realizes she has a half-brother that's going to be a great joy for her.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin becomes nearly a saint if we keep in mind that he raised a child which wasn't his seed and allowed him to bear his arms and colors.

Your line of speculation is very intriguing - but you lost me at the very start. Tywin Lannister, as we have had numerous opportunities to see, is NOT a good man, much less a saint. And if Tyrion gets to ride a dragon, it'll be as a passenger, or baggage.

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion's parentage is designed in contrast to Jon.

Jon is what happens when a boy is adopted by a good father, loved and raised right. He'll become a hero.

Tyrion is the other side of the equation, GRRM asking himself what would happen to Jon if Ned wasn't Ned? He's already given away that Tyrion is a villain.

Theon Greyjoy was also raised by Ned Stark, same as Sansa. But unlike Jon, they are far from being good people. And what about Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella? All three were raised by Robert, thinking, that he is their father. But they all have different personalities, and lived differenly. So, by whoever the person was raised, isn't uber significant. Just look at Dany - she was raised by creep Viserys. So my point, is, is that people themselves choose, whom they should be, and how they should live. Ned Stark was a good person, and Jon is a good person. Tywin Lannister was a bad person, but Tyrion is trying to become someone better, than his father was (same as Jaime). So both of them, Jon and Tyrion, has chosen by themselves, what kind of people are they.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, zandru said:

Your line of speculation is very intriguing - but you lost me at the very start. Tywin Lannister, as we have had numerous opportunities to see, is NOT a good man, much less a saint. And if Tyrion gets to ride a dragon, it'll be as a passenger, or baggage.

I was speaking metaphorically there - which people do, too, when they talk about actual 'saints' because there are no such people (but that's another matter). The meaning is that Tywin Lannister's behavior looks less extreme/evil if you accept the idea that Tyrion was not, in fact, his son but a bastard of his wife's he knowingly raised as his own son.

In fact, the twisted image we have at this point of Tywin makes the very thought of that notion impossible - which is why many people run around and claim Tywin would most definitely have killed Tyrion if he had known he was Aerys' bastard.

But if he knew that and didn't kill him then the image we have of Tywin right now would be wrong.

And we learn more and more about the man that implies the public image wasn't the man - he smiled, he whored, and he even laughed (as we learn in TWoIaF).

It isn't a stretch that his love for his wife was so great that he took the bastard in as his own son - 'Promise me, Tywin', just as Lyanna begged her brother: 'Promise me, Ned.'

[chrisdaw]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Theon Greyjoy was also raised by Ned Stark, same as Sansa. But unlike Jon, they are far from being good people. And what about Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella? All three were raised by Robert, thinking, that he is their father. But they all have different personalities, and lived differenly. So, by whoever the person was raised, isn't uber significant. Just look at Dany - she was raised by creep Viserys. So my point, is, is that people themselves choose, whom they should be, and how they should live. Ned Stark was a good person, and Jon is a good person. Tywin Lannister was a bad person, but Tyrion is trying to become someone better, than his father was (same as Jaime). So both of them, Jon and Tyrion, has chosen by themselves, what kind of people are they.

Ned and Tywin branch all through Jon's and Tyrion's arcs. Tyrion literally thinks he is what Tywin made him. Call it a choice if you will, it makes no difference, each character is choosing to be influenced greatly by their fathers.

Theon is what happens when the subject knows there is a real father out there instead of assuming the adopted father is the real one. Another angle to hit it from.

[zandru]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And we learn more and more about the man that implies the public image wasn't the man - he smiled, he whored, and he even laughed (as we learn in TWoIaF).

It isn't a stretch that his love for his wife was so great that he took the bastard in as his own son - 'Promise me, Tywin', just as Lyanna begged her brother: 'Promise me, Ned.'

Okay, now I'll keep an open mind about this. I'm not convinced until George RR actually puts it into print - but it's more of a possibility to me than it had been initially. Thanks!

57 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Theon is what happens when the subject knows there is a real father out there instead of assuming the adopted father is the real one.

Good observation! It's too bad Theon wasn't in a position to truly understand what a cunt his father was: brutal, close-minded, painfully anachronistic and reactionary. It might have cleared his thinking with regard to his "keeper", Ned. But that's another inquiry.

[Springwatch]

On 8/13/2018 at 3:15 PM, Lord Varys said:

It isn't a stretch that his love for his wife was so great that he took the bastard in as his own son - 'Promise me, Tywin', just as Lyanna begged her brother: 'Promise me, Ned.'

He really did love Joanna - this is possible.

However, the things we do for love do not make us saints, and Tywin was a lousy father who made his children feel unloved and worthless. Tyrion spent his childhood not only dreaming of dragons, but also dreaming of escape from the Lannister family.