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I’ve been meaning to ask this for a while. Should it be a giant red flag if someone doesn’t ask you any questions about yourself early on in the dating process, or are some people just like that and you need to give them a pass for it?

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1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I’ve been meaning to ask this for a while. Should it be a giant red flag if someone doesn’t ask you any questions about yourself early on in the dating process, or are some people just like that and you need to give them a pass for it?

Seems like it'd be a red flag to me. 

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3 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I’ve been meaning to ask this for a while. Should it be a giant red flag if someone doesn’t ask you any questions about yourself early on in the dating process, or are some people just like that and you need to give them a pass for it?

I think that’s pretty weird to be honest 

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8 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I’ve been meaning to ask this for a while. Should it be a giant red flag if someone doesn’t ask you any questions about yourself early on in the dating process, or are some people just like that and you need to give them a pass for it?

How early are we talking, like first date or a good few conversations? And do you mean literally no questions or just very little? 

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8 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

How early are we talking, like first date or a good few conversations? And do you mean literally no questions or just very little? 

It's a weird situation. We worked together a few years back, but I didn't want to make a move at the time because she was in a messy break up and dating coworkers is usually a mistake. Fast forward and she messages me saying she'll be in town and is probably moving back to town. We talked for a while and she kinda asked me out. I had had a few drinks and told her that I was into her back in the day and she said the same. Since then we've talked a lot on the phone, but I noticed that I was asking a lot of questions about what she's been up to while she hasn't done the same. Could be nothing. could be I misread the situation. Either way whatever happens happens. I just wanted to see if others had similar experiences and what came of them as I'm used to getting bombarded with questions from potential suitors. 

:dunno:

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33 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

It's a weird situation. We worked together a few years back, but I didn't want to make a move at the time because she was in a messy break up and dating coworkers is usually a mistake. Fast forward and she messages me saying she'll be in town and is probably moving back to town. We talked for a while and she kinda asked me out. I had had a few drinks and told her that I was into her back in the day and she said the same. Since then we've talked a lot on the phone, but I noticed that I was asking a lot of questions about what she's been up to while she hasn't done the same. Could be nothing. could be I misread the situation. Either way whatever happens happens. I just wanted to see if others had similar experiences and what came of them as I'm used to getting bombarded with questions from potential suitors. 

:dunno:

Ah yes, the woman you mentioned previously.

Its early days so an actual date might provide some different results, she’s maybe saving the questions about you until you see each other in person. 

She may also just be looking for a quick/short-term hook up, nothing serious. Hard to tell without being the one actually speaking with her but that would be my take on it based on what you said, with the small possibility of her holding the more personal questions for a face-to-face meeting. I say go ahead anyway, it’s not a red flag per se just be aware of what’s it might mean and don’t expect too much? :dunno:

(says she of hopeless love life...)

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14 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Ah yes, the woman you mentioned previously.

Its early days so an actual date might provide some different results, she’s maybe saving the questions about you until you see each other in person. 

She may also just be looking for a quick/short-term hook up, nothing serious. Hard to tell without being the one actually speaking with her but that would be my take on it based on what you said, with the small possibility of her holding the more personal questions for a face-to-face meeting. I say go ahead anyway, it’s not a red flag per se just be aware of what’s it might mean and don’t expect too much? :dunno:

(says she of hopeless love life...)

Yeah, that’s my take too. If I had to guess at this point I’d say it’s more likely than not that she just wants to get together and catch up, maybe have it turn into a date and a hook up than anything concrete. I just found it odd that she wasn’t asking me about how life has been since it’s been a few years since we’ve seen each other.

Funnily enough she started to last night. I’m sure I’m just overthinking it. She really is my kind of woman though. By day she works to help refugees and political dissidents and by night she plays competitive soccer, football and basketball.

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My occassional therapist (as in, I occasionally go to therapy, not different therapists) finally got the story of my now 4-year-old ur-crush, Mad Economist PhD Guy (now actually Mad Economist Professor Guy, which is ugh.) and suggested that of course I should get in touch with him (again.)

This suggests between one and two very troubling things:

1. My therapist hates me or is terrible at her job.

2. I am telling this story in a way in which somehow it is possible to come away thinking 'oh, talk to this guy, it will be good for you.'

Worst part? I find the notion, if accredited by a mental health professional, cheering.

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On 10/20/2018 at 8:23 PM, Datepalm said:

This suggests between one and two very troubling things:

1. My therapist hates me or is terrible at her job.

2. I am telling this story in a way in which somehow it is possible to come away thinking 'oh, talk to this guy, it will be good for you.'

Worst part? I find the notion, if accredited by a mental health professional, cheering.

Well, considering the fact that, one, I am not a mental health professional, two, I don't know you that well, three, I don't know your therapist well, four, I don't know the situation all that well, I think it is probably best to consider all those options are plausible although, of course, not all equally probable.

That is to say, shouldn't your therapist be helping you come up with a plan of your own that addresses whatever the issue is?  (I'm unsure what the actual issue is with your crush.)  If I choose to defer to the "professional" in the room (perhaps wrongly, of course) and assume that they are actually capable of their job (again, perhaps wrongly), the fact seems to be that your second point is probably the more likely.  In other words, you do want to talk to him, even if you seem to consciously "know" that this is a bad idea.  In other words, it seems the issue might not be the "crush itself" but the disjunction between what you consciously "know" and what you unconscious (subconsciously?) "want."  Is then, this "suggestion" by the therapist an attempt by her to "illustrate" this disjunction?  Again, this is a stab in the dark to put in generously.

Note, I am not offering a solution.  It's your problem, and you are the only person who can/should solve it.  If the therapist is worth their salt, then they certainly shouldn't be trying to "solve your problem" but rather help you solve your problem.  Of course, not knowing any of you, nor the situation you all find yourselves in, and not actually being anyone personally capable of anything I'm not sure I can do anything but simply rephrase the question.

In light of this, I'm not sure why I even wrote this post.  But here it is, done, so I will post it.  My apologizes if this is even less than not at all helpful, or if I offend you.

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12 minutes ago, .H. said:

In light of this, I'm not sure why I even wrote this post.  But here it is, done, so I will post it.  My apologizes if this is even less than not at all helpful, or if I offend you.

Lol, not at all! I appreciate the post.

The backstory to this is, firstly, that this whole story is ridiculous and awful and conflicted and was reasonably clearly an elaborate form of convoluted self sabotage (my therapist, meaning well, did appear to enjoy it,) all of which I analyzed at great and public length some years ago on earlier incarnations of this thread, and, secondly, that I am prone to attempts at irony.

So you pretty much nailed it.

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39 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

Lol, not at all! I appreciate the post.

Perhaps then this is why I wrote it?  I will take a temporal paradox over a less savory alternative.

39 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

The backstory to this is, firstly, that this whole story is ridiculous and awful and conflicted and was reasonably clearly an elaborate form of convoluted self sabotage (my therapist, meaning well, did appear to enjoy it,) all of which I analyzed at great and public length some years ago on earlier incarnations of this thread, and, secondly, that I am prone to attempts at irony.

So you pretty much nailed it.

Having been a fly on the wall for a long time, I can sort of recall that.  Also being a fly on the wall here a long time, I am old and my memory is somewhat faulty now.  However, the armchair psychologist I am (I went to school for it, but never did a damn thing with my degree) is far more of a phenominologist (whatever the hell that means, because I just made it up) and so whatever that situation was, it was, or maybe wasn't but is now.  The key is what it is to you now, because that is the only place the situation, as it pertains to you, exists.  (The situation as it pertains to him exists as well, but that is his "problem" not yours.)

So, I guess the question might be, what do you think about talking to him again?  The question is also simultaneously, how do you feel about talking to him again?  Then the question is, what do these two answers agree or disagree about?  And so what do both answers tell you about you?

Perhaps that is too psychoanalytic though.  Also, don't really answer those questions here, unless you feel you really want to get into it.  I'm not looking for the answers.  I'm just trying to help you possibly be able to find where they might be for yourself.  I'm sure your therapist is doing a better job than anything I could do over a forum half a world away though.  Unless she is really that bad... (I sure hope not, since somehow you must be "paying" this person.)

(It occurs to me I am being probably just being to serious in analyzing a flippant post geared toward irony.  Such is my nature though, so as always, feel free to ignore me.)

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I should probably not be engaging with this as deeply as I am, less because these are not good and pertinent questions, and more because I am procrastinating on a Monday morning - I have one half of one paper to finish, and this will be the very last thing I need to complete my MA degree, so this poor little two-page thing is now clearly carrying along its own - or rather, my - psychological baggage given that I've been staring at it for two months.

But! I will ignore that now some more and do it anyway. 

I am actually not paying my therapist, because some amount of sessions is covered by my university health insurance, and I've liked the option of taking advantage of them gradually over the year as a middle ground between 'nothing' and 'full blown weekly therapy.' So I'm somewhat low-stakes here.

This therapist is certainly very, um, American? That is, she's upbeat and affirming in ways I find cheering but also sometimes trite. (She's also asked me about three more times more than I was comfortable with if I wanted to be evaluated for psychiatric medication, the answer always being, good grief, no.) Then again, she's also insightful and can ask fairly probing questions, and, you know, the psychoanalytic, portrait of Jung and Freud on the wall (for real), 'your case is Lacanian', serious-old-Mitteleuropean-Jewish-dude last therapist I had was not a great experience, so who am I to judge?

To go to the issue, as it pertains to me rather than as it pertains to reality, of course I want to contact him again, because of some widths of pie chart slices of anger, confusion, curiosity, desire for closure, competitiveness, lingering - though, at this point, entirely conceptual, as I haven't seen this clown in years - attraction and possibly a certain sublimated erotic quality to the hot mess of it all. (TMI? meh.)

Rationally, however, I know two things - the first is that none of these pie chart slices will be satisfied by any actual contact, because of historic preponderance of evidence that this person is simply not a good enough communicator to address them in any way. Its not (just) that he won't say what I want him to say, its that he won't say (much less do) anything. Second, is also that this exercise will likely be hurtful, both in the immediate moment, and in the longer term of forgetting the hell about the whole situation.

Now, in a sense I approve of the second thing, it likely being something of a dialectic of the first thing, but given that the first thing does not actually exist, there is also no dialectic in the reality of the situation, no possibility of synthesis and therefore no reason to allow the occurrance of the second thing until such time, perhaps, as the second thing ceases to be the second thing, which is only possible when the first thing ceases to be the first thing. That is, I should get in touch when I no longer want to get in touch - the possibility of the collapse of the dialectic exists only, indeed, phenomenologicaly, in my head.

Also, he like lives far away and I'd have to send him a Linkedin message or something, which is too lame to contemplate seriously.

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1 hour ago, Datepalm said:

I am actually not paying my therapist, because some amount of sessions is covered by my university health insurance, and I've liked the option of taking advantage of them gradually over the year as a middle ground between 'nothing' and 'full blown weekly therapy.' So I'm somewhat low-stakes here.

I kind of figured that, but I mean, someone is somehow paying her in some fashion.

1 hour ago, Datepalm said:

Now, in a sense I approve of the second thing, it likely being something of a dialectic of the first thing, but given that the first thing does not actually exist, there is also no dialectic in the reality of the situation, no possibility of synthesis and therefore no reason to allow the occurrance of the second thing until such time, perhaps, as the second thing ceases to be the second thing, which is only possible when the first thing ceases to be the first thing. That is, I should get in touch when I no longer want to get in touch - the possibility of the collapse of the dialectic exists only, indeed, phenomenologicaly, in my head.

Ah, yes, it would seem that you actually discovered, intellectually, the Gordian Knot here.  Is it likely that this Knot and the paradox of how it could even exist, or simply be untied, could be assumed to be something of an issue for you?  If not the entirety of the issue?

1 hour ago, Datepalm said:

To go to the issue, as it pertains to me rather than as it pertains to reality, of course I want to contact him again, because of some widths of pie chart slices of anger, confusion, curiosity, desire for closure, competitiveness, lingering - though, at this point, entirely conceptual, as I haven't seen this clown in years - attraction and possibly a certain sublimated erotic quality to the hot mess of it all. (TMI? meh.)

Could it be a plausible reading that this chimera of needs and wants constitutes that Gordian Knot then?  Especially since he likely cannot address all those things, even if he were willing?  In this sense, the Knot precedes him, in the same sort of paradoxical way of the dialectic above.  If (and I am not attempting to say this is easy, or uncomplicated) you could explore each of those things within your own context (because his context is likely to not be helpful anyway) you might be able to succeed in draining the residual psychological "energy" which gives the knot power to hold you, then we might find our way out of it?  Since cutting the Knot completely would be tantamount to destruction of the Psyche, which is not preferable.

Here, I regretfully am probably making this all facile.  Or cliche. In any case, I believe your analysis to be sound.  Contacting him is likely to not be helpful.  In a way, I think the therapist might be looking to drain that "energy" by practical exposure.  Let you see that he is not the answer, so that you then move on.  However, I have my decidedly nonprofessional, non-accredited opinion that this will not untie the Knot, because it will not address any of the things you listed.

1 hour ago, Datepalm said:

(She's also asked me about three more times more than I was comfortable with if I wanted to be evaluated for psychiatric medication, the answer always being, good grief, no.)

Well, thank goodness you said no.  You certainly don't need drugs, there isn't anything in your brain that is not functioning correctly.  In fact, this would seem to be a case of your mind being too astute, too rational, and too thoughtful.  Your mind has just bundled a great deal of difficult things into "one thing."  It's a big time ball of yarn that is now a knot.

(I've probably wasted enough of your precious time with my basic interpretation, so again, apologies for probably somehow both over and under analyzing at the same time.  Paradoxes abound.)

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1 hour ago, Liffguard said:

I'm a pretty clueless individual, and I find it really hard to interpret signs and hints. If she says, "I want to take you back to my house so we can get naked and fuck," that means she might be interested, right?

I dunno man, people are really complicated. Who knows what she means?

Erik: I KNOW, right? But...who knows what he means...?

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1 hour ago, .H. said:

Ah, yes, it would seem that you actually discovered, intellectually, the Gordian Knot here.  Is it likely that this Knot and the paradox of how it could even exist, or simply be untied, could be assumed to be something of an issue for you?  If not the entirety of the issue?

Could it be a plausible reading that this chimera of needs and wants constitutes that Gordian Knot then?  Especially since he likely cannot address all those things, even if he were willing?  In this sense, the Knot precedes him, in the same sort of paradoxical way of the dialectic above.  If (and I am not attempting to say this is easy, or uncomplicated) you could explore each of those things within your own context (because his context is likely to not be helpful anyway) you might be able to succeed in draining the residual psychological "energy" which gives the knot power to hold you, then we might find our way out of it?  Since cutting the Knot completely would be tantamount to destruction of the Psyche, which is not preferable.

Well, to really get into it, one of the lingering, unanswered, and unanswerable but philosophically evocative and therefore interesting questions here is how much this particular dynamic is mine alone, playing out whatever my issues are on the slightly random canvas of another person who was unfortunately there at the wrong time in the wrong place (I can give GPS coordinates, if necessary,) and how much of this is actually a particularly dissatisfying, but by definition unique, relationship (in the wider, not-only-romantic sense of the word). Its neater and more empowering for me assume the former, centering my experience and making him a NPC, if you will. I sometimes remember this story as getting lost in some woods, being rude to man dressed like Michael Jackson and leading a goat, and then emerging cursed to fall for the first person I made eye contact with. Which is kind of what happened, purely literally. But I also think its not entirely true. So this just lingers, for now, apparently slightly more than I thought it did, and I'm not sure how to solve it.

I'll tell the story of how I stopped by his office a few months back when I was in the city in question, and then discovered I had no actual desire to see him and got out with a sense of adrenalized euphoria at having avoided the consequences my own actions.

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7 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

Well, to really get into it, one of the lingering, unanswered, and unanswerable but philosophically evocative and therefore interesting questions here is how much this particular dynamic is mine alone, playing out whatever my issues are on the slightly random canvas of another person who was unfortunately there at the wrong time in the wrong place (I can give GPS coordinates, if necessary,) and how much of this is actually a particularly dissatisfying, but by definition unique, relationship (in the wider, not-only-romantic sense of the word). Its neater and more empowering for me assume the former, centering my experience and making him a NPC, if you will.

Well, I don't necessarily see why each is mutually exclusive though.  Well, I would tend to think that your dynamic is yours, his is his, but the relationship's is the relationships.  That is to say, the relationship is the particular dynamic of both your dynamics inter-playing.  Was it random?  Surely, but only in the sense that anything and everything is.  So, if everything random, than no nothing is.  It only is "determined" in so far as your own contribution to the dynamic is determined by you.  But that isn't the whole dynamic, unless the other person literally contributes nothing (which is not possible, since they'd need to not even physically be there, and then that isn't a relationship, that's an idea).

All relationships will be, by definition, unique.  Even if you, right now, were in the same situation as you were back then, the situation might plausibly play out the similarly, but also specifically not the same, because you are not the same you.  He isn't the same he, nor is the world the same world.  Each is, to some degree similar, but also not.

You absolutely should empower yourself though.  You absolutely should center your own experience, mostly because that is the only experience you can or will ever have.  Would you center his?  Of what value would that be to you?  Especially since you cannot know his experience.  You cannot experience his experience.  Or mine.  Or anyone else's.  He is an NPC, so long as you keep in mind that he is the PC of his own "game" just as you are of yours.

The question is, what do you want?  What do you need?  What do you value?  What can you give?  What is your aim?  What is your goal?  What is your plan? (Those can be answered to yourself, in your own time.)

(An personal anecdote.  Once upon a time, I had a girlfriend for a number of years (3, I think).  Things seemed fine and then one day she told me it was over.  I was devastated.  It was the first relationship I ever had.  I had no idea what went wrong, because I wasn't told anything before that day.  I would evaluate, for days, weeks, months at a time what I did wrong.  Those turned into years, over 10 of them.  I couldn't ever find an answer to the question of, was it me?  How did I ruin it?  What could I have done differently?  Shouldn't I have noticed?  Or was it her? I couldn't bring myself into another relationship, or even to be with anyone without knowing, so I didn't for a long time.  Thing is, you cannot know.  There will be no knowing.  I had the same feelings as you, I was angry, hurt, confused, bereft of closure, and still of course physically longing, all without recompense.  The fact is, I was human, mistaken and fallible: I made mistakes.  She was too.  I couldn't forgive myself what I had done or failed to do though.  I could forgive her, but never myself.  Our relationship was just flawed from the get go and neither of us could have fixed it, even if we knew how.  It wasn't just me, or her, it was how we just were not meant to be.  You must treat yourself at least as well as you would treat anyone else.  Forgive yourself and let go the perversity of knowing his perspective (it doesn't matter).

Sorry if this personal note fails to capture the essence of your experience though.)

 

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