Dating - I love the way you swipe

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Liffguard said:

I...have absolutely no idea. It was a good day out, I just don't think it was a good date. I had fun, she said she had fun. But it was no different from dozens of other fun days out we've had together as friends. She's said she doesn't want to kiss or escalate to any other sort of affection, which is fine, totally her right to decide that. But I wonder what's actually changed then, if we're just acting exactly the way we were as friends anyway.

Okay, this next bit is gonna make her sound like a bit of an arsehole, which isn't my intention, but it's left me super confused. Whilst we were talking she confessed she'd hooked up with someone literally the previous night. Which, again, okay she can decide to do that if she wants. We're not in a relationship, I have no claim to any fidelity at this point. But did I really need to know? Why even bring it up at all? It's the sort of thing we'd have been totally okay talking about as friends, which basically just further increased my impression that this was just a friends' day out. Like, my gut says she's not interested in me at all, she gave absolutely no sign that she was interested. The only thing I had to go on was that this was her idea, she asked me out completely out of the blue.

And then we were in a group setting yesterday. She was being super flirty with a bunch of other people, and almost entirely ignoring me. So yeah, every indication is that she isn't interested. And honestly I'd be happy to leave it at that, except she's also said she wants to go out again. What the fuck? I just want to know where I stand.

Edit: I definitely don't need to worry about idealising her. I really like her, but I'm very aware of her numerous flaws. Many of them are endearing, many aren't, but perfect she ain't.

Edit 2: When did my life become such a fucking soap opera?

What did you guys do for the date?  Maybe try something you don't usually do together as friends, like a nice dinner out or something?  May help make the distinction.  It's possible that she just kind of fell into the pattern and rapport you've established as friends when she mentioned hooking up with a guy the previous night.  

9 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Well I have a date next week...I think! 

Asked out by someone i used to go college with years ago. I think it’s a date - he did call me cute  so hopefully that isnt disastrous - I’m too tired of being nervous and flaky when people ask me out so this time I was just like Yep okay let’s do it  

Awesome!  Have a great time!

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

.

Summer crush girl is single.  BE STILL MY HEART!!!!  Gawd she is awesome.  I'm not driving straight back to Huntsville to howl outside her window.  I SWEAR I'M NOT.

Howl worthy?  Nice!

[Ser Reptitious]

11 hours ago, Liffguard said:

I...have absolutely no idea. It was a good day out, I just don't think it was a good date. I had fun, she said she had fun. But it was no different from dozens of other fun days out we've had together as friends. She's said she doesn't want to kiss or escalate to any other sort of affection, which is fine, totally her right to decide that. But I wonder what's actually changed then, if we're just acting exactly the way we were as friends anyway.

Okay, this next bit is gonna make her sound like a bit of an arsehole, which isn't my intention, but it's left me super confused. Whilst we were talking she confessed she'd hooked up with someone literally the previous night. Which, again, okay she can decide to do that if she wants. We're not in a relationship, I have no claim to any fidelity at this point. But did I really need to know? Why even bring it up at all? It's the sort of thing we'd have been totally okay talking about as friends, which basically just further increased my impression that this was just a friends' day out. Like, my gut says she's not interested in me at all, she gave absolutely no sign that she was interested. The only thing I had to go on was that this was her idea, she asked me out completely out of the blue.

And then we were in a group setting yesterday. She was being super flirty with a bunch of other people, and almost entirely ignoring me. So yeah, every indication is that she isn't interested. And honestly I'd be happy to leave it at that, except she's also said she wants to go out again. What the fuck? I just want to know where I stand.

Edit: I definitely don't need to worry about idealising her. I really like her, but I'm very aware of her numerous flaws. Many of them are endearing, many aren't, but perfect she ain't.

Edit 2: When did my life become such a fucking soap opera?

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but could it be the old "she's just not that into you"? As in, she likes the idea of keeping you around as a constant back-up option, but she's not particularly eager to take things further? So she pays you just enough attention to keep you 'on the hook', but as soon as she believes that you are, her attention once again turns elsewhere? I've been in that situation before, and it's confusing and frustrating.

Since she feels free to share her hook-up experiences with you, why don't you do the same regarding your ongoing friends-with-benefits situation? If she truly just wants to be friends, that shouldn't bother her at all, but if her reaction/demeanour indicates displeasure then I strongly suspects she wants you to keep pining for her. 

[Lily Valley]

So I got into a ...fight?  something?  with TOO MUCH girl last night.  Told her she was pushing my limits and she told me to go eat a bag of, well you know man-parts.  So I rephrased her text and sent it back to her.  Now this was at 2am and I had no business looking at my phone and trying to be intelligent.  OTOH, this was the third day in a row I had been relatively non-responsive.  She knew I hadn't had a day off in 2 weeks and her texts had been progressively outrageous and attention seeking.

I also got an email stating that my messages were erratic and crazy.  I'm all "WTF.  I'd been texting you back, 'Nice pic, I'm still at work or asleep' for days and I just asked for a bit of space until the holiday."  The holiday, btw begins at 4pm today.  FFS, I snapped.  Somewhere around message 15 or 20.  

For some background, my phone has been ringing off the hook for WEEKS.  I have several deadlines pending at work and a child dealing with the incarceration system who has mental health issues.  So when my phone goes off, my body goes into overdrive "emergency" mode.  For this reason I usually keep the damn thing off.  I know what I'm supposed to be doing every SINGLE FUCKING MINUTE OF EVERY DAY.  I've told her repeatedly that her texts are only going to get answered if there is a direct question involved.  Last night I got 5 of these texts after midnight and one of them was all, "Just thinking about you and I don't like you at all" which I know she thinks is cute, but I've told her I find it really off-putting because I already feel really REALLY overtaxed and I don't need one more person telling me I'm not doing enough.  I don't.  

I am not proud of myself, but I'm also pissed.  Why is it ok for people to overstep these communication boundaries?  Why am I ALWAYS the blasted bad guy in these situations because I'm fucking busy?  I've ALWAYS made it VERY VERY clear that I have VERY LITTLE free time.  VERY LITTLE DISPOSABLE TIME.  I hoard what I have and am mostly fine by myself.  After midnight, if I'm awake is NOT A GOOD TIME FOR A BIG EMOTIONAL CHAT VIA TEXT.

 

I am not proud of myself.  /rant

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Sorry to say it Liff, but I also think that sounds pretty bad. She indicated to you that she was willing to get physical with someone else, but not with you, and she showed more affection to other people in front of you without giving you any. Take her up on the second date, but be realistic about it. Maybe that will help you calm down.

[Maithanet]

15 hours ago, Liffguard said:

I...have absolutely no idea. It was a good day out, I just don't think it was a good date. I had fun, she said she had fun. But it was no different from dozens of other fun days out we've had together as friends. She's said she doesn't want to kiss or escalate to any other sort of affection, which is fine, totally her right to decide that. But I wonder what's actually changed then, if we're just acting exactly the way we were as friends anyway.

Edit 2: When did my life become such a fucking soap opera?

This doesn't sound very soap opera-ish, just regular relationship drams.  So that's good?

I agree with larry that doing something that breaks out of the typical "this is what we do as friends hanging out" is a good idea.  You know what else is a good idea?  Communication.  If you are indeed good friends, then you shouldn't need to be fussing about trying figure out what is up, you should ask her.  Why did she change her mind about going on this date?  What is she hoping happens between you two?  Is she interested in something serious developing, or just looking for something casual and maybe see where it goes from there?  This isn't asking for a big commitment, just a status update of what is going on right now. 

My suspicion, given your description thus far, is that she'll say something like "I am not sure if I see a future for us romantically, but I don't want to close off the possibility, so I figured I'd give it a chance."  This is a similar, but somewhat more charitable interpretation of what Ser Repititious wrote.  IF that is the message you're getting, then it's even more important that you do something to break out of comfortable friendly hanging out and actually do something more couple-bonding time.  If, when you do that, it just feels like slightly more awkward friend time, then it's probably not gonna work.  But you gotta do something to break out of your current pattern to find out.

Look at me, giving advice.  I don't know anything . 

[maarsen]

1 hour ago, Lily Valley said:

So I got into a ...fight?  something?  with TOO MUCH girl last night.  Told her she was pushing my limits and she told me to go eat a bag of, well you know man-parts.  So I rephrased her text and sent it back to her.  Now this was at 2am and I had no business looking at my phone and trying to be intelligent.  OTOH, this was the third day in a row I had been relatively non-responsive.  She knew I hadn't had a day off in 2 weeks and her texts had been progressively outrageous and attention seeking.

I also got an email stating that my messages were erratic and crazy.  I'm all "WTF.  I'd been texting you back, 'Nice pic, I'm still at work or asleep' for days and I just asked for a bit of space until the holiday."  The holiday, btw begins at 4pm today.  FFS, I snapped.  Somewhere around message 15 or 20.  

For some background, my phone has been ringing off the hook for WEEKS.  I have several deadlines pending at work and a child dealing with the incarceration system who has mental health issues.  So when my phone goes off, my body goes into overdrive "emergency" mode.  For this reason I usually keep the damn thing off.  I know what I'm supposed to be doing every SINGLE FUCKING MINUTE OF EVERY DAY.  I've told her repeatedly that her texts are only going to get answered if there is a direct question involved.  Last night I got 5 of these texts after midnight and one of them was all, "Just thinking about you and I don't like you at all" which I know she thinks is cute, but I've told her I find it really off-putting because I already feel really REALLY overtaxed and I don't need one more person telling me I'm not doing enough.  I don't.  

I am not proud of myself, but I'm also pissed.  Why is it ok for people to overstep these communication boundaries?  Why am I ALWAYS the blasted bad guy in these situations because I'm fucking busy?  I've ALWAYS made it VERY VERY clear that I have VERY LITTLE free time.  VERY LITTLE DISPOSABLE TIME.  I hoard what I have and am mostly fine by myself.  After midnight, if I'm awake is NOT A GOOD TIME FOR A BIG EMOTIONAL CHAT VIA TEXT.

 

I am not proud of myself.  /rant

Lily, I understand the pressure you are under and I can understand your response. People really do need to be aware of boundaries and what is acceptable. some things need to be said, even though you may not be proud to say it. 

Stay strong.

[Lily Valley]

1 hour ago, maarsen said:

Lily, I understand the pressure you are under and I can understand your response. People really do need to be aware of boundaries and what is acceptable. some things need to be said, even though you may not be proud to say it. 

Stay strong.

Thanks for that.  I called in today, not because I'm so upset about this breakup or whatever, but I realized that if I lost my shit last night over some stupid text message nonsense then I was in NO condition to keep my temper in class today.  I had 7 email messages from students wheedling for extra credit.  4 more asking if we were even meeting for class today and I was all typing, "U NO WHAT???  IF YOU DON'T EFFING CARE THEN I DON'T EFFING CARE EITHER!"  Soooooooo, I deleted that email before sending it and sent an email to my boss instead stating that I was cancelling my classes today.

[Liffguard]

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

This doesn't sound very soap opera-ish, just regular relationship drams.  So that's good?

 

Relative to my normal expectations, this is very soap opera-ish.

I've already tried talking to her about where things might be going. Not even looking for a definitive answer, just an insight into her thought process. She got very evasive and just said "we'll see how it goes" before changing the subject.

I'm not totally giving the situation up for lost, but I'm not going to invest any more mental energy in it either. The way I see it, she knows how I feel and exactly where I stand. The ball's in her court now. If this is going to progress then she's going to have to be the one to express that she wants that to happen. Until/unless she does I'm just going to keep being a friend, but not pushing for anything more.

 

6 hours ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but could it be the old "she's just not that into you"? As in, she likes the idea of keeping you around as a constant back-up option, but she's not particularly eager to take things further? So she pays you just enough attention to keep you 'on the hook', but as soon as she believes that you are, her attention once again turns elsewhere? I've been in that situation before, and it's confusing and frustrating.

The thought has definitely crossed my mind. For what it's worth, I don't think she's being deliberately manipulative, just indecisive and wary. The behavioural outcomes are the same, but I think motive matters here as well. The last three guys she dated were total arseholes. Sorry to come across all Nice Guy-ish, and I'll admit I'm biased, but it's true. All three also caused some level of friend-group drama and cost her some of her social circle. So if she's extremely cautious about potentially starting something new, I understand that. Still gonna do my best to not be strung along, but I don't necessarily blame her either.

[Theda Baratheon]

5 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

So I got into a ...fight?  something?  with TOO MUCH girl last night.  Told her she was pushing my limits and she told me to go eat a bag of, well you know man-parts.  So I rephrased her text and sent it back to her.  Now this was at 2am and I had no business looking at my phone and trying to be intelligent.  OTOH, this was the third day in a row I had been relatively non-responsive.  She knew I hadn't had a day off in 2 weeks and her texts had been progressively outrageous and attention seeking.

I also got an email stating that my messages were erratic and crazy.  I'm all "WTF.  I'd been texting you back, 'Nice pic, I'm still at work or asleep' for days and I just asked for a bit of space until the holiday."  The holiday, btw begins at 4pm today.  FFS, I snapped.  Somewhere around message 15 or 20.  

For some background, my phone has been ringing off the hook for WEEKS.  I have several deadlines pending at work and a child dealing with the incarceration system who has mental health issues.  So when my phone goes off, my body goes into overdrive "emergency" mode.  For this reason I usually keep the damn thing off.  I know what I'm supposed to be doing every SINGLE FUCKING MINUTE OF EVERY DAY.  I've told her repeatedly that her texts are only going to get answered if there is a direct question involved.  Last night I got 5 of these texts after midnight and one of them was all, "Just thinking about you and I don't like you at all" which I know she thinks is cute, but I've told her I find it really off-putting because I already feel really REALLY overtaxed and I don't need one more person telling me I'm not doing enough.  I don't.  

I am not proud of myself, but I'm also pissed.  Why is it ok for people to overstep these communication boundaries?  Why am I ALWAYS the blasted bad guy in these situations because I'm fucking busy?  I've ALWAYS made it VERY VERY clear that I have VERY LITTLE free time.  VERY LITTLE DISPOSABLE TIME.  I hoard what I have and am mostly fine by myself.  After midnight, if I'm awake is NOT A GOOD TIME FOR A BIG EMOTIONAL CHAT VIA TEXT.

 

I am not proud of myself.  /rant

Lily -she’s being an absolute dick. Not you. You’re being badass at your job, working hard in all areas of your life and being clear with your time constraints and boundaries and she’s pissing all over them. I’d be pissed off too. 

[Ravenhair]

15 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

So I got into a ...fight?  something?  with TOO MUCH girl last night.  Told her she was pushing my limits and she told me to go eat a bag of, well you know man-parts.  So I rephrased her text and sent it back to her.  Now this was at 2am and I had no business looking at my phone and trying to be intelligent.  OTOH, this was the third day in a row I had been relatively non-responsive.  She knew I hadn't had a day off in 2 weeks and her texts had been progressively outrageous and attention seeking.

I also got an email stating that my messages were erratic and crazy.  I'm all "WTF.  I'd been texting you back, 'Nice pic, I'm still at work or asleep' for days and I just asked for a bit of space until the holiday."  The holiday, btw begins at 4pm today.  FFS, I snapped.  Somewhere around message 15 or 20.  

For some background, my phone has been ringing off the hook for WEEKS.  I have several deadlines pending at work and a child dealing with the incarceration system who has mental health issues.  So when my phone goes off, my body goes into overdrive "emergency" mode.  For this reason I usually keep the damn thing off.  I know what I'm supposed to be doing every SINGLE FUCKING MINUTE OF EVERY DAY.  I've told her repeatedly that her texts are only going to get answered if there is a direct question involved.  Last night I got 5 of these texts after midnight and one of them was all, "Just thinking about you and I don't like you at all" which I know she thinks is cute, but I've told her I find it really off-putting because I already feel really REALLY overtaxed and I don't need one more person telling me I'm not doing enough.  I don't.  

I am not proud of myself, but I'm also pissed.  Why is it ok for people to overstep these communication boundaries?  Why am I ALWAYS the blasted bad guy in these situations because I'm fucking busy?  I've ALWAYS made it VERY VERY clear that I have VERY LITTLE free time.  VERY LITTLE DISPOSABLE TIME.  I hoard what I have and am mostly fine by myself.  After midnight, if I'm awake is NOT A GOOD TIME FOR A BIG EMOTIONAL CHAT VIA TEXT.

 

I am not proud of myself.  /rant

I have seen the other responses to this, but I have a different take on it. This woman seems to like you a great deal. While you may be incredibly busy (and I know you are), she may not be, and that can lead to obsessing about the relationship, especially if she cares for you. She may feel like she is on a roller coaster of emotions because to her, you may seem distant a lot of the time. If both of you can try to see things from the other’s perspective, it may help. 

[Heartofice]

4 hours ago, Ravenhair said:

I have seen the other responses to this, but I have a different take on it. This woman seems to like you a great deal. While you may be incredibly busy (and I know you are), she may not be, and that can lead to obsessing about the relationship, especially if she cares for you. She may feel like she is on a roller coaster of emotions because to her, you may seem distant a lot of the time. If both of you can try to see things from the other’s perspective, it may help. 

I have to agree with this. I also don't think many people take being ignored or being a lower priority to someone's work very well, and so its understandable that it will create a bit of erratic behaviour in some people. I'd say its important to be understanding of how your actions affect others and have some empathy. I have been guilty of this in the past: seeing what I deemed to be over emotional behaviour from someone as a huge negative, but not being aware of my own part in creating that behaviour. 

Its all very well to have a busy job and to tell someone that you have that busy job and pre-warn them, but we are all human beings and we need to be made to feel we are special and loved. If we don't get that then we get angry and we move on. 

This girl will move on given the option I feel. And yeah, her responses haven't been very adult but I've found giving people the love they desire leads to far more amenable behaviour.

[Ser Reptitious]

17 hours ago, Liffguard said:

The thought has definitely crossed my mind. For what it's worth, I don't think she's being deliberately manipulative, just indecisive and wary. The behavioural outcomes are the same, but I think motive matters here as well. The last three guys she dated were total arseholes. Sorry to come across all Nice Guy-ish, and I'll admit I'm biased, but it's true. All three also caused some level of friend-group drama and cost her some of her social circle. So if she's extremely cautious about potentially starting something new, I understand that. Still gonna do my best to not be strung along, but I don't necessarily blame her either.

I hope you're right, I really do, but the thing that strikes me as a bit of a red flag is the fact that she would openly flirt with other guys right in front of you and basically ignore your presence (nevermind telling you about a previous night's hookup). Since she knows how you feel about her, that strikes me as a bit of a dick move. Ask yourself, how would it be if the situation was reversed? Would you feel like a bit of a dick openly flirting with other girls right in front of her, while at the same time bascially ignoring her (and at other times telling her about a hookup you had the previous night)? If the answer is yes, odds are it's a dick move no matter who does it.

Please don't get me wrong. Like I said, I'm rooting for you and I'll gladly be wrong about this. It's just that I've been in that exact situation before, and I, too, kept making excuses and rationalized her hot-and-cold behaviour towards me for a fairly long time. I ultimately broke the cycle by asking her out point-blank (when she showed more interest again) and she replied with the old "not right now", even though she was single. I took it as a 'no' and moved on, meeting my now-wife about a month later, as it happened. Starting that new relationship was a revelation. It reminded me what it is like when someone is genuinely into you, rather than at best half-heartedly. 

I think this clip from How I Met Your Mother sums it up quite nicely: 

 

[maarsen]

I think this song sums up your situation nicely too.

 

[Liffguard]

Personally I would have used this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtb-ZPOkMyI

[Buckwheat]

If we are doing that, then I think this is the song to describe the situation: 

https://youtu.be/UKdJ1dsAF_c

[Ser Reptitious]

5 hours ago, Liffguard said:

Personally I would have used this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtb-ZPOkMyI

 

54 minutes ago, Buckwheat said:

If we are doing that, then I think this is the song to describe the situation: 

https://youtu.be/UKdJ1dsAF_c

Oh wow, look what I started! Apparently we are now conveying all our sentiments through YouTube links! 

[Datepalm]

So I went on a date (was late and got caught in the rain and arrive looking like a drowned cat, I imagine.) Nice enough, unobjectionable, smart, looks fairly ok, I guess, just...not...argh, I don't know, interesting. As in, I wasn't interested. No apparent obsessions, no weirdness, no mysterious, unhealthy, inarticulable drive for something - particular or not - that seems to position this person ever so slightly orthogonally to, like, life. And correspondingly make them an awkward and unlikely dating prospect. And, thus, I don't appear to be at all attracted to him.

Sigh. I guess I'll have something to chat about with my therapist.

[Lily Valley]

On 11/20/2018 at 11:28 PM, Ravenhair said:

I have seen the other responses to this, but I have a different take on it. This woman seems to like you a great deal. While you may be incredibly busy (and I know you are), she may not be, and that can lead to obsessing about the relationship, especially if she cares for you. She may feel like she is on a roller coaster of emotions because to her, you may seem distant a lot of the time. If both of you can try to see things from the other’s perspective, it may help. 

Ravenhair, I get that.  I really do and I know she likes me A LOT.  I have tried to be more responsive, communicative and to make more time for her.  That leads to her pushing me and saying things like, "I know you love me."  I feel very pushed into some next level stuff that I'm just not interested in right now.  She will alternate some seriously OTT messages with snarky jabs when she's not getting immediate responses from me.  Also the sheer volume of communication late at night and during work hours is overwhelming.  

I think we are fundamentally not well suited.  When we're together it is non-stop talking.  Even if we are watching a movie, she is talking and always pushes the conversation towards emotional discourse.  I find this completely exhausting.  Yes, I HAVE TOLD HER THIS REPEATEDLY.  

I realize I am justifying my response to her right now and that's not what I want to be doing.

We were supposed to have a spring fling and end it over the summer.  She kept messaging and I called her once or twice.  She decided we were having a long distance relationship.  I genuinely feel like she is not listening.  She has spent a few days here and I've told her I needed to work, she responded by being in the room making conversation until I gave up.  She was pleased with herself that she "got me to take a day off".  As a result, I got behind on my work and twice as stressed out.  Same thing when I told her I had to leave her place to see my son.  She's always like, "I understand that's important to you, but can't you meet him later or tomorrow?"  I feel like I'm always having to say, "No."  Every weekend it's a very late night invitation to do something.  I'm too tired at 11pm.  I'm too tired at 10 or 11 pm on a work night.  

Just got a message from her that she hopes I have a nice Thanksgiving and got some rest.  Like the vitriolic tirade I got in both text and email didn't happen.  It did.  Seriously, if she feels like I'm that bad for her, then I probably am.

I am not going to respond.  I'm over it.  I'm sick of being the bad guy.

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Lily Valley said:

Ravenhair, I get that.  I really do and I know she likes me A LOT.  I have tried to be more responsive, communicative and to make more time for her.  That leads to her pushing me and saying things like, "I know you love me."  I feel very pushed into some next level stuff that I'm just not interested in right now.  She will alternate some seriously OTT messages with snarky jabs when she's not getting immediate responses from me.  Also the sheer volume of communication late at night and during work hours is overwhelming.  

I think we are fundamentally not well suited.  When we're together it is non-stop talking.  Even if we are watching a movie, she is talking and always pushes the conversation towards emotional discourse.  I find this completely exhausting.  Yes, I HAVE TOLD HER THIS REPEATEDLY.  

I realize I am justifying my response to her right now and that's not what I want to be doing.

We were supposed to have a spring fling and end it over the summer.  She kept messaging and I called her once or twice.  She decided we were having a long distance relationship.  I genuinely feel like she is not listening.  She has spent a few days here and I've told her I needed to work, she responded by being in the room making conversation until I gave up.  She was pleased with herself that she "got me to take a day off".  As a result, I got behind on my work and twice as stressed out.  Same thing when I told her I had to leave her place to see my son.  She's always like, "I understand that's important to you, but can't you meet him later or tomorrow?"  I feel like I'm always having to say, "No."  Every weekend it's a very late night invitation to do something.  I'm too tired at 11pm.  I'm too tired at 10 or 11 pm on a work night.  

Just got a message from her that she hopes I have a nice Thanksgiving and got some rest.  Like the vitriolic tirade I got in both text and email didn't happen.  It did.  Seriously, if she feels like I'm that bad for her, then I probably am.

I am not going to respond.  I'm over it.  I'm sick of being the bad guy.

Honestly I stand by saying you’re not the bad guy here and she’s just being a bit of a dick. *shrug*