WHEEL OF TIME tv show: Go on,tug my braid!

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

Sure, but it's kind of a big part of RJ's conception of the story, one of the earliest Viewings Min pronounces. It doesn't strike me as something that should be tinkered with, because (as I've said elsewhere) once a writer is encouraged to change some fundamental feature of the tone or themes or broad plan of a story, they're liable to change more, and you may find yourself quite displeased. If they try to stick to the plan within the timeframe and budget they have to work with, you know what you're getting -- good parts and bad parts -- and it's down to their execution that you judge them, not whether their peccadilloes are more in line with your own. 

I doubt its going to work that way with WoT. There are definitely aspects of the books I'd be happy to not see in the show, and I suspect I'm far from alone on that.

As for the quadrangle... its actually not a big part of the books. Which is why axing it can be so pain-free. Elayne and Rand are in the same scene like thrice in the entire series. There's more of Aviendha and Rand in books 4-6.5, but after that, they're in the same scene just once. Min is the only one whose story would change significantly if she were not in a relationship with Rand.

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Yes, because women who spend a lot of of time together are definitely down to fuck...

 

Well that's a bizarre reading of what I'm saying. WoT is filled with women who spend significant time with each other. Egwene and Elayne. Nynaeve and Elayne. Egwene and Siuan. Elayne and Birgitte. Siuan and Min. Egwene and Aviendha... the list goes on. If, as you imply, I'm saying that Elayne and Aviendha should get together just because of their spending significant time together to fulfill some teenage fantasy, why am I picking just them?

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Just seems absurd to me. The White Tower provides plenty of scope for exploring homoerotic and homosensual relationships, no need to change primary characters.

Yes, because tertiary characters who barely have any screen time are the exact same thing as major characters....

[Werthead]

The love quadrangle is, in no way, shape or form, one of the primary themes or storylines of the series. It's way down the list of things they should include, and could be jettisoned with relative ease, incorporated in a changed fashion, or just kept in. As has been said elsewhere, that story really ended up going nowhere because it's not an element Sanderson wanted to pursue or there was necessarily a lot of information in the notes, so he lowballed it. One awkward scene in Winter's Heart aside (Aviendha and Min get drunk whilst Elayne gets impregnated), it doesn't really lead to much in the end. Same as the hot iron thing, also from Min's first viewing, which Jordan apparently forgot about and ended up not being addressed at all.

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Just seems absurd to me. The White Tower provides plenty of scope for exploring homoerotic and homosensual relationships, no need to change primary characters.

 

RJ made a big thing about having gay and lesbian characters, and then rowed back on that. The gay characters simply don't show up (it was left to Sanderson to incorporate one in the very last book) and the lesbian characters are really minor figures who almost certainly won't be in the TV show at all (apart maybe from Elaida, as the books are unclear if she's bi or lesbian). What he does have is the bisexual epidemic in the White Tower, which certainly feels very adolescent: Siuan and Moiraine were lovers in the Tower until they left and met some actual men and now they're straight, which has awkward connotations.

The sexual politics of The Wheel of Time are a bit of a mess and are certainly an area ripe to be straightened out (no pun intended) and made more relevant.

[alostsister]

On 8/7/2018 at 2:52 PM, Werthead said:

Well yeah, the book would be written by Kruppe or Iskaral Pust. Job done.

 

Iskaral Pust, Pust's wife, and Kruppe. A can't-lose dream team of writing.

[Ran]

Saying Sanderson dropped the ball doesn't strike me as a very strong argument for following suit. 

I'll also add that while some of these characters did not spend all that much time together in the book, they spend a _great_ deal of time thinking about their hopes and fears about their relationship, and indeed in some cases the relationship is a significant motivating factor (see Aviendha's constant stuggle with the ji'e'toh situation she's in vis-a-vis Rand and Elayne, some of Rand's pretty significant decisions re: Andor, pretty much everything with Min...) 

I find it bizzare that fans of the books are so quick to dump on things. I largely gave up on the series before Sanderson even showed up, and I can't imagine being so blasé about taking a bunch of hugely popular bestselling novels to adapt and saying, "Yeah, man, what can I, jobbing screenwriter with no great work to my credit, change first?"

 

 

 

[Werthead]

Worked out for certain people whose first initials were "D", though, right? Well, for them and for HBO, not necessarily for fans of the books.

WoT is different in that the books are complete, so we can see the shape of the entire story and what needs to stay and what needs to be cut, and even the most rabidly loyal WoT fan I think knows they're not going to get the ~36 seasons it'll take to adapt the entire series faithfully. This is a much, much bigger story than ASoIaF but will almost certainly only get about as many episodes (at best). As a result, considerably more things will be cut or changed than in LotR or GoT. That's unavoidable. That quadrangle thing I think is one of those that can be adjusted with no real major issue. It ranks way below Tom Bombadil on the list of things that can be jettisoned from the story without it making much of an impact.

Getting rid of that and then eliminating Aviendha, Elayne or Min because they decide they don't need all three characters would be another issue, or eliminating Loial or not going to Shadar Logoth or not having the Aes Sedai as all women. So far, though, it sounds like all of the major elements will be retained.

[Myrddin]

As stated upstream, the "romances" of Rand can just be encounters throughout, not a build up to a polygamous arrangement. If I recall correctly (probably not...), Rand just shared puppylove make out sessions with Elayne in Tear and then didn't see her again for a long time (until she decided it was her turn). He had a little more intimate time with Aviendha but really only had an actual relationship with Min. 

I'd hate for them to make E & A become lovers through shared pinning over Rand... Each woman spent time with him. No need to turn each one into the love of his (or her) life. If nothing else, show the Aiel's attitude about sex by making the whole thing not a big deal from Aviendha's point of view, while Rand is the one caught up in the emotions of his first time.

Anyway. I'm digging into the strangest aspects of this adaptation in this thread. Noses. Love quadrangles. What's next? The shade of amber used for Perrin's eyes?

Ah, of course. Matt being kept as a love slave...

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I find it bizzare that fans of the books are so quick to dump on things. I largely gave up on the series before Sanderson even showed up, and I can't imagine being so blasé about taking a bunch of hugely popular bestselling novels to adapt and saying, "Yeah, man, what can I, jobbing screenwriter with no great work to my credit, change first?"

I think it's probably fair to say most fans of the series have a bit of a love-hate relationship with it, particularly in the second half of the series. When there are plotlines that don't really work in the books and nobody particularly seems to like then I hope they do something different in the adaptation - whether that is omitting the plotline, or rewriting it drastically, or keeping it much the same but implementing it better. Of course, there's always a significant risk that the screenwriter's own ideas are worse that what Jordan came up with, but I don't think changing things in an adaptation is intrinsically bad.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Saying Sanderson dropped the ball doesn't strike me as a very strong argument for following suit. 

I do wonder if Jordan could have partially redeemed the plotline if he had been able to finish it, but when he was writing the story it didn't feel like it made sense in terms of character development so I'm a bit sceptical.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, williamjm said:

I think it's probably fair to say most fans of the series have a bit of a love-hate relationship with it, particularly in the second half of the series. When there are plotlines that don't really work in the books and nobody particularly seems to like then I hope they do something different in the adaptation - whether that is omitting the plotline, or rewriting it drastically, or keeping it much the same but implementing it better. Of course, there's always a significant risk that the screenwriter's own ideas are worse that what Jordan came up with, but I don't think changing things in an adaptation is intrinsically bad.

I would go further.  A totally faith WoT series would be almost unwatchable.  There would be so many scenes of tertiary characters fiddling about that even the most die hard fantasy fans would want to give it up.  Who's excited to finally see CoT Chapter 15, when Elenia plots to take the Andor throne behind Arymilla's back?  Anyone?  Bueller?

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Saying Sanderson dropped the ball doesn't strike me as a very strong argument for following suit. 

Then that will mean second guessing Sanderson's interpretation of the notes, and that'll still lead to changes. But that's ok with you?

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I'll also add that while some of these characters did not spend all that much time together in the book, they spend a _great_ deal of time thinking about their hopes and fears about their relationship, and indeed in some cases the relationship is a significant motivating factor (see Aviendha's constant stuggle with the ji'e'toh situation she's in vis-a-vis Rand and Elayne, some of Rand's pretty significant decisions re: Andor, pretty much everything with Min...) 

But here's the thing... not only are they thoughts, they're thoughts that don't matter in the large scheme of things. Aviendha's guilt, for instance, can still exist if they hook up, and do nothing about it thereafter. That's pretty much what happens anyway. Aviendha's solution is to approach Elayne, not resolve anything with Rand. 

As for Rand's decisions with Andor... he actually explicitly refuses to act on Lanfear's tip that Rahvin had taken over there for fear that Elayne would get exposed as someone he cares for. Then he learns Morgase is dead, and goes to attack.

So if you take away love for Elayne as a motive, it isn't like hearing a Forsaken has taken over his home country won't serve as a reason for him to eventually focus there. I would hardly change the story at all.

Min, yes. A lot of her story is about Rand. Keeping him safe, guiding his decisions, etc. Cutting her off would be a lot tougher, and shouldn't be attempted, I'd agree.

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I find it bizzare that fans of the books are so quick to dump on things. I largely gave up on the series before Sanderson even showed up, and I can't imagine being so blasé about taking a bunch of hugely popular bestselling novels to adapt and saying, "Yeah, man, what can I, jobbing screenwriter with no great work to my credit, change first?"

Would you be more comfortable with someone who has more work to their credit doing these changes? Fine. But as Wert said, no one is going to manage an adaptation of this series without significant changes.

And any screenwriter and production team has to contend with what audiences want, and what will play well. And since they won't be able to slavishly adapt the books anyway, fidelity to the books wouldn't be a good enough explanation if they left the clunky aspects of them intact for the show. So I absolutely see no issue with them changing things.

Whether I will like the changes they make is another question. We'll all have to wait to see the show, for that. But I don't see what purpose it serves to question any proposed changes before we see the execution, just because we're fans. 

For myself, I like a lot about WoT, but there's no denying there are significant issues with some aspects of the books. I'd rather they work on those, and if that helps them reach a wider audience, and dare one hope, speak to the current political moment, then all the more power to them. If, for instance, it is easier to attract female actors and writers to the show by taking away the obviously dumb aspects, like the occurences of "rape as punishment", etc. then the producers of the show have every right to alter those things. 

I want the show to succeed, not be a slavish imitation of the books. Fidelity to the books isn't itself something that'll make the show worthy to me. Being a damn good show that works within the framework it sets up for itself... that's what I care about.

With WoT, there's a chance to make a fantasy epic show that is multicultural and dominated by female character with tons of agency... if they can clean up some troubling issues in the books. I'm waay more excited for that than for keeping intact a love quadrangle that has little to no relevance to the story.

[Ran]

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Then that will mean second guessing Sanderson's interpretation of the notes, and that'll still lead to changes. But that's ok with you?

@fionwe1987

The "notes" turned out to be a lot less detailed than people were led to believe for a long time. So, am I okay with a WoT adaptation ignoring Sanderson's books and forging their own ending based on what came before and RJ's thin notes for the wrap up? Sure. It's Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, not Brandon Sanderson's.

Judkins responses make me think WoT is much less certain to go forward than some people are hoping, all said. He seems to think he's a super long way from casting, from producing, from anything other than writing some scripts. There's no director of any kind attached, even, because he kept referring to talking to one to determine visual aspects of the show. 

I suspect LotR has a lot to do with that. WoT landed at Amazon before LotR did, and the LotR deal wrapped up quite quickly and has a lot more strings attached, re: budget and so on, so... has to be in the front seat.

[fionwe1987]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

@fionwe1987

The "notes" turned out to be a lot less detailed than people were led to believe for a long time. So, am I okay with a WoT adaptation ignoring Sanderson's books and forging their own ending based on what came before and RJ's thin notes for the wrap up? Sure. It's Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, not Brandon Sanderson's..

If you're going to trust Judkins with coming up with a whole new ending to WoT, based on the notes, then you're going to have to trust him to rewrite earlier stuff too.

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Judkins responses make me think WoT is much less certain to go forward than some people are hoping, all said. He seems to think he's a super long way from casting, from producing, from anything other than writing some scripts. There's no director of any kind attached, even, because he kept referring to talking to one to determine visual aspects of the show. 

It almost certainly isn't close to casting or anything, but there was a 3 year window from this stage to when GoT was on screen, too. No reason this should be any faster. As for whether WoT is certain, he's probably under an NDA, but I doubt he'd have gone ahead with a Q&A if the studio (Amazon and Sony) didn't say that was okay to do.

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I suspect LotR has a lot to do with that. WoT landed at Amazon before LotR did, and the LotR deal wrapped up quite quickly and has a lot more strings attached, re: budget and so on, so... has to be in the front seat

But Sony has the production rights here. Amazon may be where it gets shown, and I'm sure they'll share the cost, but this isn't purely an in-house Amazon Studios production the way LotR will be. 

 

I suspect they aren't announcing Dark Tower or WoT because they want the focus to be on LotR, but I doubt Amazon will have any issues running both shows. They do seem to want to have an extensive set of Sci-Fi and Fantasy shows, and I doubt they mean to release them successively. 

[Shaun Snow]

Sanderson's stuff read like bad fan fiction to me, complete with an obnoxious OC that solved everyone's problems in Androl. I haven't touched his solo work due to how little I liked his WOT work so I'd be completely on board with ignoring his three novels entirely.

[Corvinus85]

Well you have to provide an ending, and Rand's descent into darkness in A Gathering Storm is necessary, but it's not like Sanderson's prose is going to translate to screen somehow. Mat and other characters will not start sounding differently all of a sudden, unless there is a significant change in writing on the show, too. I am perfectly ok with cutting out characters like Androl, and hopefully the Black Tower plot (if there is one) will get a better resolution.

One thing the show can do is strive to resolve more plots than the books did prior the last battle. Way too many things had to be tide off at the end, with too much stuff rushed, or completely forgotten. Demandred and the Sharan (or other people plot) should be brought into the main story-line earlier, and not bombarded into the final segment.

[fionwe1987]

57 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

 the Black Tower plot (if there is one) will get a better resolution.

Well there can't not be one. And, happily, Judkins said he hopes to not just retain but expand Logain's role. Hopefully, all the stuff that was stolen from Logain and given to Androl can go back where it rightly belongs, and Logain, Narishma and Flinn can be the main Asha'man who resolve the Black Tower, rather than some once-mentioned character who became Brandon Sanderson's fanfiction insert.

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One thing the show can do is strive to resolve more plots than the books did prior the last battle. Way too many things had to be tide off at the end, with too much stuff rushed, or completely forgotten. Demandred and the Sharan (or other people plot) should be brought into the main story-line earlier, and not bombarded into the final segment.

That, yes, but also, a better resolution with the Seanchan. I still feel infuriated at the nothingburger we got with Egwene's pact with Tuon, which they didn't even bother to show as being signed and confirmed. Instead, we got Trolloc band 125 vs. human platoon 456 play out. WTF.

Especially the final season, they can and probably will cut way down on the needless Trolloc battles, and give us more character resolution. For god's sakes, show us Siuan and Moiraine meeting and talking, or the Egwene and Cadsuane meeting that was foreshadowed. Loong wait to that, and that's if the show survives, but I hope they feel free to completely alter Memory of Light, especially. 

[Ran]

15 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

If you're going to trust Judkins with coming up with a whole new ending to WoT, based on the notes, then you're going to have to trust him to rewrite earlier stuff too

If he proves capable of a good adaptation, then by my lights he has as much ability to close the series out based on the trajectory of RJ's novels and his notes as Sanderson.

But what I consider a good adaptation generally precludes jettisoning the original author's intentions and replacing them with one's own (exceptions are rare, and almost always films rather than series and tend to be from top tier talents, e.g. Kubrick's The Shining), and so I'm dubious based on the Q&A. RJ's notions on gender and gender relations are deeply embedded in the text. It informs basically every relationship and character of consequence. It's there in all the novels fans love, and the ones they hate too. It's not WoT if you file down all the knots and burrs to make it palatable for a "modern audience" as if it's a given that anyone really knows how people will respond.

[David Selig]

It is very unlikely that whatever changes are made for the show, Rand's love life would be any worse than in the books. The whole polyamory part is terribly written and turned out to be completely irrelevant for the main plot.

[Maithanet]

Just now, David Selig said:

It is very unlikely that whatever changes are made for the show, Rand's love life would be any worse than in the books. The whole polyamory part is terribly written and turned out to be completely pointless for the plot.

It is definitely one of the more cringeworthy things in the series.  I think that just having little trysts with Elayne and Aviendha before ending up with Min would be relatively easy to pull off, and doesn't particularly change Elayne, Aviendha or Rand's arcs.  I'm not shipping Elayne and Aviendha, mostly just because I'm tired of all the WoT characters pairing off, and would be just fine with them being *GASP* unattached.

[Ran]

I think most of the claims of cringe are two things: RJ leaning on certain repetitive thoughts and invective from characters caught up in it, and the fact that if the three Elayne is the one that doesn't feel organic while also being the most important. Min is fine. Aviendha is interesting as a young woman from a very foreign culture trying to fit her feelings for Rand into a contest she can understand. Elayne, however, is just sort of this crush that is treated as inevitable in part, I think, because he planned the conflict between the Dragon Reborn and the hair/queen of Andor as being a part of the story, complicated by their relationship.

To me, the ideal adaptation sticks closely to the first six books, then does lots of compression for the rest of RJs books, and takes his notes to make an ending that feels more like those first six books and less like one of Sanderson's fantasy adventures. Along the way, put Rand and Elayne more quickly together to enrich that party of the relationship and better balance it, as I'm sure RJ had intended before the story and fate ran away with him.

 

That adaptation likely won't happen, but that's my view. Those first six books are very solid. I don't see any reason to change important aspects beyond cutting and compressing for time and budget.

[fionwe1987]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

But what I consider a good adaptation generally precludes jettisoning the original author's intentions and replacing them with one's own (exceptions are rare, and almost always films rather than series and tend to be from top tier talents, e.g. Kubrick's The Shining), and so I'm dubious based on the Q&A. RJ's notions on gender and gender relations are deeply embedded in the text. It informs basically every relationship and character of consequence. It's there in all the novels fans love, and the ones they hate too. It's not WoT if you file down all the knots and burrs to make it palatable for a "modern audience" as if it's a given that anyone really knows how people will respond.

Yes. But no is calling for all of it to be removed. But there are definitely troubling aspects I think most readers will be fine, if they're removed. No is going to miss 4 of the 5 female Forsaken being raped. Those rapes serve no real purpose, but definitely stink.

And you have to consider this: if they have to attract top tier acting and writing talent to the show, they might have to rework the troubling gender aspects of the books. Not all of it, but any means. No one, I think, hopes for WoT to become a generic medieval fantasy.

It is perfectly possible to have the gender relations as they are without having the quadrangle. I think you ascribe too much centrality to it, whereas it says almost nothing to the deeper theme of male-female duality, etc. Most of that is explored through the parallels between Rand and Egwene, and the ups and downs of their relationship.

If some of the early theories had panned out, like the "three on a boat" prophesy meaning that Elayne, Min and Aviendha had to revive Rand from death, say, or "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" meaning Elayne gave birth to their kids in Shayol Ghul, it would be harder to propose axing the quadrangle. But nothing like that happens. Their relationships play no role in the end game. Even their joint Warder bond plays no role, since Alanna didn't die while being bonded to Rand, for it to matter that others had bonded him, or something.

The long-term relationship between Rand and Elayne, and Rand and Aviendha, serve purely cosmetic functions to the stories of all three characters. The thoughts, actions and character development of all three is almost completely independent, save for Aviendha and Elayne.

So it really won't be a massive change to the books to not have the quadrangle. 

36 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think most of the claims of cringe are two things: RJ leaning on certain repetitive thoughts and invective from characters caught up in it, and the fact that if the three Elayne is the one that doesn't feel organic while also being the most important. 

The real cringe is in the way all three women just accept that they need to share Rand. Its hugely unbelievable, and terribly written.

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To me, the ideal adaptation sticks closely to the first six books, then does lots of compression for the rest of RJs books, and takes his notes to make an ending that feels more like those first six books and less like one of Sanderson's fantasy adventures. Along the way, put Rand and Elayne more quickly together to enrich that party of the relationship and better balance it, as I'm sure RJ had intended before the story and fate ran away with him.

 

In the first six books, Elayne and Rand have kissed and cuddled, then gone their separate ways. Rand and Aviendha have had sex once, then Avienha quite clearly cuts off any further romance. Min hasn't even told Rand she loves him, and he doesn't know she does, either.

Keep things in the first six books intact, and you have no quadrangle.

 

That adaptation likely won't happen, but that's my view. Those first six books are very solid. I don't see any reason to change important aspects beyond cutting and compressing for time and budget.

You do seem awfully exercised about a book series you gave up on long ago, and that you don't even think will be adapted, I must say,

[Corvinus85]

I think the Warder bond between Rand and the three women may be good to keep, as it could help the writing in the later stages. Having characters use Travelling and show up where other characters are would make sense when Warder bonds are involved. As opposed to the BS of GoT's seasons 6-7.