WHEEL OF TIME tv show: Go on,tug my braid!

[Astromech]

33 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Then you'd miss the wind blowing though.

The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

56 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

They were quite a couple, weren't they?

Yes, they were.

[SpaceChampion]

15 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I'm a skimmer when I get to those parts. Sometimes when I get to a chapter that I remember I didn't particularly enjoy I'll go read the summary for that chapter from Leigh Butler's re-read on tor.com

Didn't she do a re-re-read too?

[SansaJonRule]

On 5/10/2019 at 12:03 PM, SpaceChampion said:

Didn't she do a re-re-read too?

She did a re-read and then a re-read redux, whatever that is supposed to mean.

[SansaJonRule]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:06 PM, Martell Spy said:

Then you'd miss the wind blowing though.

Or a braid tugging or skirt smoothing.

[Corvinus85]

Re-reading Lord of Chaos. I forgot how ridiculously long is the prologue. 

[Myrddin]

The prologues got longer and longer as the series went until he devoted an entire book to the prologue..... (book 10).

[SansaJonRule]

17 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Re-reading Lord of Chaos. I forgot how ridiculously long is the prologue. 

I hate reading the prologues, but there is always important information in them.

[Astromech]

5 hours ago, Myrddin said:

The prologues got longer and longer as the series went until he devoted an entire book to the prologue..... (book 10).

Hey, Halima massaging Egwene's headaches away was riveting.

[SansaJonRule]

52 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Hey, Halima massaging Egwene's headaches away was riveting.

so riveting I got Egwene's headache

[Poobah]

Coming out of the woodwork for the hype.

I definitely agree with other people here who’ve suggested that this TV show is a great opportunity to improve on the books. Especially I’d like to see a massive turning down of the third age gender insanity dial if that crap even has to remain in at all, frankly I’d much rather people had relationships that made sense, interacted like members of the same species and didn’t play in to some really frustrating and irritating tropes and troubling stereotypes over and over. I do appreciate there likely needs to be some gender-tension both because it’s part of the lore/worldbuilding and because it does inform major plot related decisions, tensions, failures to share information, etc. but they could certainly make it far less irritating.

Faile I agree as someone said way upthread is gonna get a much more positive reaction in the TV show, because as was pointed out the only reason most people hate her is because of stuff she (usually only momentarily and probably not even consciously) feels that Perrin’s nose picks up and then he irrationally reacts to. Her actual actions and words when she’s not going out of her mind over how Perrin is acting so crazy when she’s done nothing are always supportive and positive and she has a reasonable number of levels in badass. The overly drawn-out Prophet/Kidnap arc takes place in the books that have the most capacity to get seriously condensed and it’s the most condensable plotline too so I can see a big upswing for both her and Perrin through that alone.

[fionwe1987]

I do wonder how traditionally "hated" characters like Faile and Egwene will be received on TV. As ambitious women who don't flatten themselves for others, men or women, they should play far better today than they did in the 90s I think.

I honestly don't think they need to remove the gender tension. It's a perfectly acceptable aspect of the books, especially when you consider that we're constantly reminded it is deeply wrong. The one set of characters who, ironically, don't exhibit the fucked up gender relations are the Forsaken, ironically, as they hail from a more enlightened age.

A majority of the women in WoT are sexist. And I hope the show keeps that intact. Over the course of 14 books, some of that sexism became trying and repetitive, but that can go without the core of it being excised from WoT society.

To me, having been in the WoT community for more than a decade, it is honestly hard to not see that some of the most profound objections to the female characters are because of our own sexist assumptions. Duh the women are horrible to men, posturing for position, strutting and sniping. It stands out, but only because when male characters do the same in the vast majority of fiction, we don't note it as something especially awful.

The core idea that any gender having primacy is out of whack and wrong, and that women would do no better than men as the empowered gender is one of the most feminist concepts in WoT. I hope the show leans into it, and doesn't make the mistake of thinking that just because it might be controversial, it isn't worth exploring.

I don't want to say WoT does the best job of exploring this. But a legit reading of the story is that the chief madness/wrongness in Rand is his toxic masculinity, and inability to accept that women can die in service of saving the world, and in one of the most pivotal scenes in the finale, he must learn to accept that it isn't his place to "protect" all women, or even his childhood crush. Accepting that Egwene, too, could be a hero who can die for a cause she believes in is what let's Rand finally take on the Dark One, and while that arc might have been muddled in the books and can be improved on in the show, I damn well hope they don't remove it.

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

I do wonder how traditionally "hated" characters like Faile and Egwene will be received on TV. As ambitious women who don't flatten themselves for others, men or women, they should play far better today than they did in the 90s I think.

If they look the way they are described in the series, that would certainly help make them a lot more liked. It's basic human nature, we usually perceive really good looking persons more positively.

 

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I honestly don't think they need to remove the gender tension. It's a perfectly acceptable aspect of the books, especially when you consider that we're constantly reminded it is deeply wrong.

I agree. But I would like to see them change some of the minor details which really don't make much sense in the setting. For example, the fact that in most cultures a woman openly showing her interest in a man and making the first step in the courting is totally uncommon and even shocking, even for a heir to a throne. Or how of all the named characters in the series only Birgitte likes to drink alcohol and go to taverns.

[SansaJonRule]

On 5/17/2019 at 7:39 PM, Poobah said:

Especially I’d like to see a massive turning down of the third age gender insanity dial if that crap even has to remain in at all

 

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

A majority of the women in WoT are sexist. And I hope the show keeps that intact.

I think that absolutely needs to remain, because it intensifies the contrast between the Age of Legends where men and women had largely equal status and worked well together and the current age and therefore is an important part of the world building.

Yes, they are. But so are the men. Both genders have very specific ideas about how the other gender should behave, although those ideas vary among cultures. If it is done well, it will emphasize the concept that female sexism toward men is every bit as wrong as male sexism toward women.

On 5/17/2019 at 7:39 PM, Poobah said:

the only reason most people hate her is because of stuff she (usually only momentarily and probably not even consciously) feels that Perrin’s nose picks up and then he irrationally reacts to.

I can't speak for anyone else obviously, but I didn't like her from the very beginning because she was pushy and arrogant.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

it is honestly hard to not see that some of the most profound objections to the female characters are because of our own sexist assumptions. Duh the women are horrible to men, posturing for position, strutting and sniping. It stands out, but only because when male characters do the same in the vast majority of fiction, we don't note it as something especially awful.

As a women, I have to disagree. I find that same behavior in men every bit as appalling.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

The core idea that any gender having primacy is out of whack and wrong, and that women would do no better than men as the empowered gender is one of the most feminist concepts in WoT.

I'm not understanding this comment. True feminists would say that women WOULD do better as the empowered gender.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

But a legit reading of the story is that the chief madness/wrongness in Rand is his toxic masculinity, and inability to accept that women can die in service of saving the world, and in one of the most pivotal scenes in the finale, he must learn to accept that it isn't his place to "protect" all women, or even his childhood crush. Accepting that Egwene, too, could be a hero who can die for a cause she believes in is what let's Rand finally take on the Dark One

While it's true that Rand does have to learn that women can be strong and don't always need to be protected, his "madness" is a result of multiple factors. Baalzamon's pursuit of him, his constant fear of going mad, the pressure of needing to learn to channel, political maneuvering, assessing people's loyalty, etc. are much greater factors in what you refer to as his madness/wrongness.

[felice]

5 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I'm not understanding this comment. True feminists would say that women WOULD do better as the empowered gender.

Some varieties of feminist, perhaps, but I think they'd be a small minority these days, and certainly not the only "true" kind.

[SansaJonRule]

11 hours ago, felice said:

Some varieties of feminist, perhaps, but I think they'd be a small minority these days, and certainly not the only "true" kind.

It must be different in the NZ than in the states. In the states, feminism has become about more than equal rights, it is about equality, and I don't mean in terms of personal value. I mean that feminists do not want to acknowledge inherent differences between men and women. And heaven forbid a woman should choose staying home and raising her children herself over a career! Stay at home moms have been scorned by feminists as if they are betraying the female race. It has gotten better, but stay at home moms are still often made to feel as if they have to defend their choice.

At any rate, fionwe1987's assertion that "women would do no better than men as the empowered gender" is certainly not a feminist concept. It is simply a rational concept based on an objective observation of humans in general.

[Corvinus85]

GoT is over. Can WoT match its popularity? Will the story rise to those heights? (and hopefully not descend to the same lows) We don't know, but considering the last couple of GoT episodes, one thing I hope Rafe Judkins and the writers can do with WoT: good, satisfying buildups.

[SansaJonRule]

What besides Dany's fiery rage last episode do you feel needed more buildup? That's the only plot line I've heard anyone say came out of nowhere. 

I don't think WoT will reach GoT popularity level because of the stronger fantasy elements, so it won't appeal to quite as broad a base of viewers. Unless of course they focus more heavily on the political maneuvering, which there is plenty of, and somehow add in more fighting scenes between men. That's what people really seem to love about GoT (and of course the sex and nudity )

Rafe Judkins at least has GoT to learn from, whereas GoT was ground breaking TV.

[Myrddin]

GoT also learned from other shows. Lost and BSG specifically. GoT's ending was at least better than those, build up non-withstanding.

To keep this from devolving into a discussion about GoT, WoT will have its own series of challenges to be sure. I wonder what Jenkins' prediction is in terms of how many seasons it'll take to marginally cover 14 books. I'm sure he has worse (show is tanking; wrap it up) and best (going great; it'll run until they need CGI doubles for the teenagers) case scenarios planned out in broad strokes.

His biggest edge over GoT? The source material is complete.

[Corvinus85]

10 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

What besides Dany's fiery rage last episode do you feel needed more buildup? That's the only plot line I've heard anyone say came out of nowhere. 

I don't think WoT will reach GoT popularity level because of the stronger fantasy elements, so it won't appeal to quite as broad a base of viewers. Unless of course they focus more heavily on the political maneuvering, which there is plenty of, and somehow add in more fighting scenes between men. That's what people really seem to love about GoT (and of course the sex and nudity )

Rafe Judkins at least has GoT to learn from, whereas GoT was ground breaking TV.

Arya's stuff in season 6 is another example. But I don't want to turn this into a GoT discussion, as Myrddin said.

Other stuff I'm wondering how they'll portray in the show: of course, how channeling works, but even more importantly, how channeling makes the characters feel. How will we see Rand's reactions to the taint of saidin? Or the pleasure Egwene, Elayne and the others feel when being filled with the Power? 

[A True Kaniggit]

14 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Other stuff I'm wondering how they'll portray in the show: of course, how channeling works, but even more importantly, how channeling makes the characters feel. How will we see Rand's reactions to the taint of saidin? Or the pleasure Egwene, Elayne and the others feel when being filled with the Power? 

Wolf Talking too.