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How much could Dorne influence in the war of the 5 kings?


Arthur Peres

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4 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

Doran IS scared of Tywin.

Like I said, just repeating it over and over doesn't make it fact.

 

9 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

For close to 2 decades he lost his chances to strike at Tywin.

It's not just about striking Tywin for him. It's also about restoring the Targaryens.

 

10 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

Doran has failed and failed miserably. 

The game's not over. We don't know who will end up on top

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6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Like I said, just repeating it over and over doesn't make it fact.

 

It's not just about striking Tywin for him. It's also about restoring the Targaryens.

 

The game's not over. We don't know who will end up on top

 

There is no game. A marriage pact signed some years ago. lol

Doran will die eventually. The next book or the book after. And when he does die, he will have died being a chicken. You just can't accept this fact. He's too scared or was too scared to move against Tywin, now that he has died. Facts. 

Tywin's resume vs Doran's resume

 

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I don't think Doran is a very effective schemer. He 's been waiting for 14 years, and what does he have? What kind of alliances did he build? He tried to make one with Daenerys, that was a long shot and it didn't work out. Now he's considering Aegon, but that's purely reactionary. His time for revenge has pretty much passed, Tywin Lannister is dead, Robert Baratheon is dead, Amory Lorch is dead. He only got revenge on The Mountain (through Oberyn).

If you compare him with Manderly, Manderly formed a secret network in a matter of months and has a lot of support behind him.

 

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44 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

here is no game. A marriage pact signed some years ago. lol

...and sending his son to link up with Dany, and his daughter to Aegon.

46 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

Doran will die eventually.

Valar Morghulis

 

47 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

You just can't accept this fact. He's too scared or was too scared to move against Tywin, now that he has died. Facts.

No opinions. The reason he didn't make a move earlier may be because he was scared, or may be because he's playing a subtle game. From what we've seen of him, it's clear he at least believes its the former. His daughter, nieces and a good many of his subjects believe it's the latter. However, it's quite clear from any but the most derisory of readings of AFFC and ADOD that Doran has purposely put out an image of inaction and indolence while working towards his own ends. He purposely cultivated that.

Just because we don't know everything he's been up to doesn't mean he's done nothing. The whole point of his character is subtlety (which, with all due respect, an appreciation of that quality appears to be somewhat lacking in you).

50 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

And when he does die, he will have died being a chicken.

I say this in a kindly way - The level of adolescent machismo in your comments is getting a bit wearisome.

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10 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

If you compare him with Manderly, Manderly formed a secret network in a matter of months and has a lot of support behind him.

That is a bad comparison. Manderly is aiming to take out a single House that is despised by most of the North.

No one besides the Dornish and Ironborn seems to have disliked Robert all that much. So Doran is trying to take out a alliance of the most powerful families of the Seven Kingdoms without any apparent options for allies.

He was dealt a much worse hand than the Manderly's where.

That said he bungled the alliance with Dany real bad.

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3 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

That is a bad comparison. Manderly is aiming to take out a single House that is despised by most of the North.

No one besides the Dornish and Ironborn seems to have disliked Robert all that much. So Doran is trying to take out a alliance of the most powerful families of the Seven Kingdoms without any apparent options for allies.

He was dealt a much worse hand than the Manderly's where.

Exactly. Until Robert died there was little he could do, and even after that the civil war came too soon for Targaryen supporters’ plans to kick into action. So he quietly aligned himself to the Lannisters in a non-committal way until opportunity arose.  

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Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

So he quietly aligned himself to the Lannisters in a non-committal way until opportunity arose.  

And is cost him almost nothing. Sure his brother died but that mostly Oberyn's fault.

The fact that Doran isn't willing to piss away the life of his soldiers unless there is something to gain is very commendable.

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6 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

That is a bad comparison. Manderly is aiming to take out a single House that is despised by most of the North.

No one besides the Dornish and Ironborn seems to have disliked Robert all that much. So Doran is trying to take out a alliance of the most powerful families of the Seven Kingdoms without any apparent options for allies.

He was dealt a much worse hand than the Manderly's where.

That said he bungled the alliance with Dany real bad.

I copied and paste that quote that pretty much sums up my attitude to almighty Doran. :D

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Just now, Ylath's Snout said:

And is cost him almost nothing.

It actually gained him quite a bit as well. Tyrion's offer was very generous.

Just now, Ylath's Snout said:

Sure his brother died but that mostly Oberyn's fault.

I would humbly suggest that Sir Gregor shares some of the responsibility :-)

1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said:

The fact that Doran isn't willing to piss away the life of his soldiers unless there is something to gain is very commendable.

I agree. And Doran does struggle with that in the chapter in which we first see him in AFFC, wondering if the fact no Dornish had died in the Wot5K was to his credit or his shame. A lesser man would have just bundled in for the sake of it. Doran thinks first.

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Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I would humbly suggest that Sir Gregor shares some of the responsibility :-)

Ehhh I see where you are coming from. Honestly though if you decide to do anything but focus 100% on the fight when doing battle with someone like the Mountain then dying really is your fault. Trying to force a confession out of Clegane was a dumb move.

Moreso as Oberyn has bunch of kids. ALmost like The Red Viper was something of a hothead.

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23 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Ehhh I see where you are coming from. Honestly though if you decide to do anything but focus 100% on the fight when doing battle with someone like the Mountain then dying really is your fault. Trying to force a confession out of Clegane was a dumb move

100% agree. Ignore my snark :-)

24 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

ALmost like The Red Viper was something of a hothead.

Even that comment's probably up for debate on here.

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I do not see Doran as a big schemer.

He managed to alienate his own heir to the point she tried a coup, his plan cost him his brother and son, he is in a position so weak that he is afraid about being killed by his own niece. In 14 years he wasn't able to make a single alliance with other kingdoms. He trust to much on the Targeryan name, Viserys was by all purpose a beggar.

He gained a position at the small concil in KL and a betrothal that no one seems to want to keep and is destined to break.

Dorne still have a military force intact but now he is alone, and his enemies are back at a position of strenght.

in my judgement he lost far too much for very little gain.

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6 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

which one/sect? 

I believe its a very old pact going back to when Nymeria was captured by the pirate kings on basilisk isles, and for some reason these pirate kings just let Nymeria go with her ships. Also Gylbert Farwynd referenced building ten thousand ships like Nymeria did, speaking fondly of her.

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As many as ten thousand men. Doran could wreak havoc in Dornish marches, cross the Mander and sack Highgarden or go and siege Oldtown. He may even have decided to act with a little sense and proposed Arianne to Edmure. Dornish have historically went as north as Old Oak, why not go a few more hundreds of leagues and aid Robb in taking The Rock and Lann's port, also razing a few Reachmen castles and taking Highborn hostages along the way.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

I do not see Doran as a big schemer.

He managed to alienate his own heir to the point she tried a coup, his plan cost him his brother and son, he is in a position so weak that he is afraid about being killed by his own niece. In 14 years he wasn't able to make a single alliance with other kingdoms. He trust to much on the Targeryan name, Viserys was by all purpose a beggar.

He gained a position at the small concil in KL and a betrothal that no one seems to want to keep and is destined to break.

Dorne still have a military force intact but now he is alone, and his enemies are back at a position of strenght.

in my judgement he lost far too much for very little gain.

Dorne has always been alone, even after it married the Targaryens. They fought constantly with the stormlands and the reach in the old days, but IIRC they never aligned with one against the other, or with anyone else for that matter.

The Dornish are weird. Nobody likes them. And it doesn't really matter what positions of strength his enemies are in, nobody can take Dorne, not even with dragons.

And I'm curious as to these positions of strength that the other houses are in. The Lannister/Tyrell alliance is all but sundered, with the Lanns barely hanging on to power in KL and Highgarden threatened by ironborn, King Robb is dead and his army destroyed, Stannis is trapped in the north with a frozen army...

It seems to me that hardly anyone's plans are working out very well, except maybe Littlefinger's.

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