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Frey Kings

If People still hate the Freys, they need to reconsider their life priorities

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First and foremost, I guarantee you if the ASOIAF didn't start out with the Starks, the average fan wouldn't loathe the Freys as much.

 

Freys started out from the bottom and become one of the top 10 richest houses. And Yet, no other 'historical' house have showed them any respect. They followed Aegon against the Hoares and then pledged to the Tullys as their liege lord. But yet, The Tullys always looked down upon them.  Regarding the rebellion, maybe half of the Riverlords sided with Rhaegar? It was smart for them to stay neutral instead of running off to die because some guy was butt hurt for losing his woman to another man. When Robb came down and promised to marry one of the Freys, House Frey was committed and gave him one of the strongest armies and their fighters were fierce. Lots of Freys died for Robb's cause even though one of them was married directly into the Lannisters. The Freys were dedicated to the end until Robb came back from the Craig married to another woman. Then the Lannisters started breathing down their neck and then the RW happened. 

 

Its a very grey house. There are much worse characters in the lore both past & present. That can inflict more harm than the Freys ever could. 

 

 

So please, unless you're holier than thou. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

 

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Freys are a fantasised house in a fantasy country in a fantasy universe that's in a fantasy book. I think anyone should really reconsider their life priorities if they hate an imagined house, or have a great love for them and is a diehard fanboy who tries to whitewash them, an imagined bunch of people, by constantly opening threads. 

This comes from someone who really should consider his life priorities(not due to strong emotions for the imaginaries, but other, equally unimportant real life stuff)to others who really should.

just saying.

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Freys are a fantasised house in a fantasy country in a fantasy universe that's in a fantasy book. I think anyone should really reconsider their life priorities if they hate an imagined house, or have a great love for them and is a diehard fanboy who tries to whitewash them, an imagined bunch of people, by constantly opening threads. 

This comes from someone who really should consider his life priorities(not due to strong emotions for the imaginaries, but other, equally unimportant real life stuff)to others who really should.

just saying.

I agree, they need to reexamine the Freys did nothing wrong and was caught between a rock and a hard spot. People should not have the same hatred towards them like all other houses have.

 

We

Stand

Together

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2 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

I agree, they need to reexamine the Freys did nothing wrong and was caught between a rock and a hard spot. People should not have the same hatred towards them like all other houses have.

 

We

Stand

Together

I was referring to you as well :blink:

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7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Freys are a fantasised house in a fantasy country in a fantasy universe that's in a fantasy book. I think anyone should really reconsider their life priorities if they hate an imagined house, or have a great love for them and is a diehard fanboy who tries to whitewash them, an imagined bunch of people, by constantly opening threads. 

This comes from someone who really should consider his life priorities(not due to strong emotions for the imaginaries, but other, equally unimportant real life stuff)to others who really should.

just saying.

You should refrain from commenting if you don't like the topic. The point of the forum is to create a constructive dialogue, not to lecture or put down other people participating in the forum. It's o.k. to disagree, but only if you add something constructive to the discussion. No one puts out their ideas for consideration with the hope that someone will scold them.

7 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

. . . if the ASOIAF didn't start out with the Starks, the average fan wouldn't loathe the Freys as much.

I agree. GRRM is deliberately manipulating us into drawing lines between bad guys and good guys. All along he drops clues that tell us that a person's point of view is affected by his/her loyalties and biases, and that people who appear to be one thing are actually another.

In the current discussion of Bowen Marsh, I was just amused to read a strong argument that Jon Snow is not Robb Stark, and the stabbing of Jon is not like the Red Wedding. My own view is 180 degrees opposed to that interpretation - I believe GRRM wants us to compare the Red Wedding and the attack on Jon Snow, and that our re-reading will be enriched if we ponder Robb Stark as an oathbreaker and the Freys as justified in their attack, just as he wants us to question whether Jon Snow was betraying the vows of the Night's Watch when he announced a plan to attack Ramsay Bolton.

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7 minutes ago, Seams said:

You should refrain from commenting if you don't like the topic. The point of the forum is to create a constructive dialogue, not to lecture or put down other people participating in the forum. It's o.k. to disagree, but only if you add something constructive to the discussion. No one puts out their ideas for consideration with the hope that someone will scold them.

I agree. GRRM is deliberately manipulating us into drawing lines between bad guys and good guys. All along he drops clues that tell us that a person's point of view is affected by his/her loyalties and biases, and that people who appear to be one thing are actually another.

In the current discussion of Bowen Marsh, I was just amused to read a strong argument that Jon Snow is not Robb Stark, and the stabbing of Jon is not like the Red Wedding. My own view is 180 degrees opposed to that interpretation - I believe GRRM wants us to compare the Red Wedding and the attack on Jon Snow, and that our re-reading will be enriched if we ponder Robb Stark as an oathbreaker and the Freys as justified in their attack, just as he wants us to question whether Jon Snow was betraying the vows of the Night's Watch when he announced a plan to attack Ramsay Bolton.

Yes great points!!!

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In general, people’s problem with the Freys (both in book, and on here), isn’t that they broke with Robb. They had a legitimate grievance, I don’t think anyone disputes that. It’s the manner of their revenge. Add to that, that Lord Walder at least consistently shows duplicitous and grasping behaviour, and that many of his off spring have a number of dodgy character traits, and it’s not surprising people find them unlikeable.

Staying neutral during the rebellion may have been the clever thing to do, but it’s not unreasonable that Hoster distrusted Walder after that. Wouldn’t you? If a bannerman arrives late for a battle and you think he was just turning up to join with the winning side, you’d surely keep an eye on him.

As to the Red Wedding. They broke a custom that’s taken very seriously in the 7K, and to be honest in most cultures, real and imagined, inviting people to a wedding then subjecting them a massacre is usually considered a dick move. I’m going to a wedding in October, and if the groom’s family decide to hack us all to death because of some perceived slight the bride has given them, I would be somewhat peeved, even though we don’t really have a concept of guest right in my neck of the woods.

In all seriousness, the concept of rules of war is actually an important one. Many different cultures in history have had various versions of it. They’re never and never have been religiously followed by everyone of course. But the idea behind it is that it ensures violence is carried out within some bounds of agreed framework, to avoid a free-for-all. If it became acceptable for lords to agree a truce, then slaughter their opponents the moment they’ve let their guard down, then it would become difficult to have any cessation of hostilities, even if it’s best for both sides, as neither could trust the other. And that’s the problem the Freys have now. If ever they are in conflict with another house, it will be very difficult for them to resolve it, as no-one will believe a word they say. Plus, others will feel justified in doing all manner of things to them, on the grounds that they’ve set themselves apart from legitimate codes of behaviour. Manderly minced three of them and ate them. I doubt he would have done that if the Freys had simply switched sides and killed his son in battle.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

You should refrain from commenting if you don't like the topic. The point of the forum is to create a constructive dialogue, not to lecture or put down other people participating in the forum.

How "constructive" is it when a poster chooses to belittle people's "life priorities" because of an opinion they may hold of fictional characters?

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

You should refrain from commenting if you don't like the topic.

What @The Ned's Little Girl Said above. I do not like to scold people for their beliefs but this particular poster comes time and again with similar stuff,whether creating a topic or just posting to one, and throws around only thinly veiled insults to anyone who doesn't like his favourite bunch of imaginary people or to those who happen to like families his favourite bunch slaughtered most dishonorably, judging by the values of the book people.

No one puts out their ideas to be scolded but no one comes to the forums just to get their daily dose of insult because they feel more bonded to character a than to character b, who is just a scum by any value in the given setting.

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

You should refrain from commenting if you don't like the topic. The point of the forum is to create a constructive dialogue, not to lecture or put down other people participating in the forum. It's o.k. to disagree, but only if you add something constructive to the discussion. No one puts out their ideas for consideration with the hope that someone will scold them.

I partially agree with what you typed. I stay out of certain off the wall discussions.  Occasionally though, some interpretations are so bazaar that they merits what you consider scolding.

Martin wrote a story. As martin leads the reader though the quagmire a reader of the work of fiction needs to decide who they are rooting for.

Depending upon ones outlook the game of thrones is a political and might makes right scenario.

There is also a repeat of the Starks heading south that started with the R & L stuff. In a perfect world Eddard shoulda stayed home.

Story wise King Bob doesn't know his children are Lannisters. Nor does it seem that the people of Westeros know.

Early on it is revealed that Lord Frey is a prickly fellow. Walder throwing in with Lannister is okay. What is not okay is how Frey, Bolton, and Lannister dealt with the situation.

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4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

In general, people’s problem with the Freys (both in book, and on here), isn’t that they broke with Robb. They had a legitimate grievance, I don’t think anyone disputes that. It’s the manner of their revenge. Add to that, that Lord Walder at least consistently shows duplicitous and grasping behaviour, and that many of his off spring have a number of dodgy character traits, and it’s not surprising people find them unlikeable.

Well said! At this point, there's little else but recriminations on the choice of topic and who dares to respond.  ;-)

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16 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

First and foremost, I guarantee you if the ASOIAF didn't start out with the Starks, the average fan wouldn't loathe the Freys as much.

 

Freys started out from the bottom and become one of the top 10 richest houses. And Yet, no other 'historical' house have showed them any respect. They followed Aegon against the Hoares and then pledged to the Tullys as their liege lord. But yet, The Tullys always looked down upon them.  Regarding the rebellion, maybe half of the Riverlords sided with Rhaegar? It was smart for them to stay neutral instead of running off to die because some guy was butt hurt for losing his woman to another man. When Robb came down and promised to marry one of the Freys, House Frey was committed and gave him one of the strongest armies and their fighters were fierce. Lots of Freys died for Robb's cause even though one of them was married directly into the Lannisters. The Freys were dedicated to the end until Robb came back from the Craig married to another woman. Then the Lannisters started breathing down their neck and then the RW happened. 

 

Its a very grey house. There are much worse characters in the lore both past & present. That can inflict more harm than the Freys ever could. 

 

 

So please, unless you're holier than thou. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

 

Being a Frey fan myself, I see them getting an undue amount of hate for the red wedding.  I say put most families in their shoes and they would do the same thing.  Why risk losing their bridge for some boy who already proved he doesn't respect them.

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They took a massive risk in taking sides with rebels, Walder Frey put the lives of all his children on the line to do so. He's south of Moat Cailin: he's in a much worse position than most of the rest of Stark's rebel houses if the war goes against them. The price for his allegiance was a marriage to the Rebel King, and that pact was broken. Ergo, Frey was no longer bound to any oath to the Starks.  He wished, rightly, to return to the fealty of the Iron Throne and asked what he had to do to make things right: he was given his answer. His King ordered him to break a taboo, frankly a stupid superstition, and he did it. It was not only the correct move given the political situation, it could be argued that it was the right move, both legally and morally.

We object to it selfishly and emotionally: because we "know" the Starks, we live in their heads. Any honest attempt to see the situation from Walder's point of view results in a very different reaction.

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Who can hate the Freys? Winter is coming and they are delicious in combination with a glass of dornish red.

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9 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

arrives late 

I think that Hoster would has less low opinion about Walder, if he just stayed neutral instead playing comedy "The Late arrival".

Tyrels stayed neutral during DOD, and no one, as far as we know, criticised them for that.

6 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

all of his descendants 

Even babies Tywin and Jamie?

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20 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

First and foremost, I guarantee you if the ASOIAF didn't start out with the Starks, the average fan wouldn't loathe the Freys as much.

I think you are right.  The reader sees the story through the eyes of the Starks.  We should get a Walder Frey points of view so we can see the story from his angle. 

 

Freys started out from the bottom and become one of the top 10 richest houses. And Yet, no other 'historical' house have showed them any respect. They followed Aegon against the Hoares and then pledged to the Tullys as their liege lord. But yet, The Tullys always looked down upon them.  Regarding the rebellion, maybe half of the Riverlords sided with Rhaegar? It was smart for them to stay neutral instead of running off to die because some guy was butt hurt for losing his woman to another man. When Robb came down and promised to marry one of the Freys, House Frey was committed and gave him one of the strongest armies and their fighters were fierce. Lots of Freys died for Robb's cause even though one of them was married directly into the Lannisters. The Freys were dedicated to the end until Robb came back from the Craig married to another woman. Then the Lannisters started breathing down their neck and then the RW happened. 

 

Its a very grey house. There are much worse characters in the lore both past & present. That can inflict more harm than the Freys ever could. 

The Greyjoys are many times worse than the Freys.  The Order of the Greenhand think the Martells are pretty bad people.  The Wise Masters take the cake though.  

 

So please, unless you're holier than thou. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

They took a massive risk in taking sides with rebels, Walder Frey put the lives of all his children on the line to do so. He's south of Moat Cailin: he's in a much worse position than most of the rest of Stark's rebel houses if the war goes against them. The price for his allegiance was a marriage to the Rebel King, and that pact was broken. Ergo, Frey was no longer bound to any oath to the Starks.  He wished, rightly, to return to the fealty of the Iron Throne and asked what he had to do to make things right: he was given his answer. His King ordered him to break a taboo, frankly a stupid superstition, and he did it. It was not only the correct move given the political situation, it could be argued that it was the right move, both legally and morally.

We object to it selfishly and emotionally: because we "know" the Starks, we live in their heads. Any honest attempt to see the situation from Walder's point of view results in a very different reaction.

The red wedding is a very bad act of treachery.  I think Walder even knows that.  He was in a bad position and just didn't have any good alternative.  

I want to compare Walder Frey to Jaime Lannister.  I know, this will p/o a lot of goldie's fans.  Sorry about that.

Jaime Lannister pushed a helpless little Bran out of the tower window.  He was doing something that can't be known by anyone; otherwise, the woman he loved and their children would die.  So his fans give him a break.  

Walder Frey was an innocent bystander when Gregor Clegane attacked his small folk because of what Catelyn did.  He gets forced to choose between helping the Starks or siding with the Lannisters.  Either choice carries a lot of risk.  Not choosing and staying neutral also carries a lot of risk.  Remember what the Tullys did to House Goodbrooke for staying neutral.   Walder actually has better reasons than Jaime. 

The Freys did nothing wrong.  They were innocents that got dragged into the war.  Jaime and Cersei are not innocents.  Walder's children and his grandchildren are innocent.  As are Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella.  Jaime has to worry about the safety of five people.  Walder had the safety of his family in the balance.  He could lose The Twins.  My opinion, Walder is more justified for the red wedding than Jaime's attempted murder of Bran Stark.  

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