If People still hate the Freys, they need to reconsider their life priorities

[Darth Sidious]

House frey was caught between the wolves and the lions.  The wolves betrayed him and now want to make a deal again for his services.  The lions are saying he needs to solve a problem for them before they will let him back into the good graces of King Joffrey.  They're not letting him get away with fighting for the rebels and then wiping the slate clean.  He has to prove his loyalty by taking down the rebellion for them.  But Walder doesn't have the number of fighting men that Robb has.  Walder and Roose together do not command enough men to fight the combined forces of the Starks and the Tullys.  Fighting Robb head on is suicide.  Deception is the only way to get it done.  

[Angel Eyes]

I’d say that the in-universe hate for the Frey’s has mainly begun with Lord Walder, since his ancestor Forrest Frey was a loyal and brave (by all accounts) supporter of the Blacks during the Dance of the Dragons, and unlike Criston Cole supported her despite being rejected as a husband. And much of the family has inherited Walder’s unpleasantness.

I actually somewhat understand why Walder resents Hoster Tully; it’s not like Hoster didn’t do the exact same thing that Walder has Robb do in AGOT, where else did Ned and Jon get the Tully soldiers? And which one was Robb supposed to marry?

I wonder if Catelyn gets her dislike of Ned raising Jon under Winterfell’s roof from her father’s dislike of Walder and the fact that Walder does the same thing. At least he provides for his bastards.

[MostlyMoody]

11 minutes ago, Buell Rider said:

House frey was caught between the wolves and the lions.  The wolves betrayed him and now want to make a deal again for his services.  The lions are saying he needs to solve a problem for them before they will let him back into the good graces of King Joffrey.  They're not letting him get away with fighting for the rebels and then wiping the slate clean.  He has to prove his loyalty by taking down the rebellion for them.  But Walder doesn't have the number of fighting men that Robb has.  Walder and Roose together do not command enough men to fight the combined forces of the Starks and the Tullys.  Fighting Robb head on is suicide.  Deception is the only way to get it done.  

I don't think anyone is arguing pragmatism. Red Wedding was strategically the best option for the Lannisters and Freys. That does not make it moral and to bring it back to the OP, that is why readers and many characters in the books hate Freys.

[Starkz]

On 8/9/2018 at 10:27 AM, Seams said:

You should refrain from commenting if you don't like the topic. The point of the forum is to create a constructive dialogue, not to lecture or put down other people participating in the forum. It's o.k. to disagree, but only if you add something constructive to the discussion. No one puts out their ideas for consideration with the hope that someone will scold them.

I agree. GRRM is deliberately manipulating us into drawing lines between bad guys and good guys. All along he drops clues that tell us that a person's point of view is affected by his/her loyalties and biases, and that people who appear to be one thing are actually another.

In the current discussion of Bowen Marsh, I was just amused to read a strong argument that Jon Snow is not Robb Stark, and the stabbing of Jon is not like the Red Wedding. My own view is 180 degrees opposed to that interpretation - I believe GRRM wants us to compare the Red Wedding and the attack on Jon Snow, and that our re-reading will be enriched if we ponder Robb Stark as an oathbreaker and the Freys as justified in their attack, just as he wants us to question whether Jon Snow was betraying the vows of the Night's Watch when he announced a plan to attack Ramsay Bolton.

Guest Rights?

[zandru]

On 8/10/2018 at 11:50 AM, Hugorfonics said:

"Then winkle them out of their pyramids on some pretext. A wedding might serve. Why not? Promise your hand to Hizdahr and all the Great Masters will come to see you married. When they gather in the Temple of the Graces, turn us loose upon them."

Dany was appalled. He is a monster. A gallant monster, but a monster still.

I'm glad you brought this up! It shows the big differences between Daenerys Stormborne and Walder Frey. This scene with Sexy Daario took place after Dany has brought down the House of the Undying, bought an army by slaughtering the vendor, and taken three cities in quick succession. The reader might be coming to the conclusion that the girl was more than a little bloodthirsty. But her reaction to staging a Meereenese Red Wedding re-establishes her basic decency and ethics.

We might then consider how Walder Frey handled it. Tywin persists in telling people that only Robb Stark was killed at Edmure's wedding. Maybe that was all he told Walder to do. The other 10,000 northmen were Frey freebies, courtesy the twisted, vengeful mind of Old Walder.

Yeah, yeah, I know some of y'all think that, since the Red Wedding was expedient, it was good. Moral. Needed. What they would have done in his place. That kind of sums them up, if you know what I mean.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

I'm glad you brought this up! It shows the big differences between Daenerys Stormborne and Walder Frey. This scene with Sexy Daario took place after Dany has brought down the House of the Undying, bought an army by slaughtering the vendor, and taken three cities in quick succession. The reader might be coming to the conclusion that the girl was more than a little bloodthirsty. But her reaction to staging a Meereenese Red Wedding re-establishes her basic decency and ethics.

Shes one of the good ones, or at least one of the oks

1 hour ago, zandru said:

We might then consider how Walder Frey handled it. Tywin persists in telling people that only Robb Stark was killed at Edmure's wedding. Maybe that was all he told Walder to do. The other 10,000 northmen were Frey freebies, courtesy the twisted, vengeful mind of Old Walder.

2 wolf pelts. So they all know Cat was dead. But that wasnt the plan, which is weird. Why would Frey/Bolton/Lannister want Cat alive? She has no claim to anything that Edmure doesnt have. And why keep a hostage? The war is over

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Yeah, yeah, I know some of y'all think that, since the Red Wedding was expedient, it was good. Moral. Needed. What they would have done in his place. That kind of sums them up, if you know what I mean.

I do. Unfortunately people are like that. Ask an average person what theyd do with a captured Ramsay to really see their dark side.

[Clegane'sPup]

7 hours ago, MostlyMoody said:

Red Wedding was strategically the best option for the Lannisters and Freys.

I agree with that. I would include Bolton in the mix.

7 hours ago, MostlyMoody said:

That does not make it moral and to bring it back to the OP, that is why readers and many characters in the books hate Freys.

Generally I shy away from the use of the word moral. The Red Wedding took more than 24 hours to plan. Frey and Bolton led Stark and the northmen into a, for lack of a better word ambush. A small entourage was allowed into the castle and the men outside the castle walls were plied with booze.  Hate is a rather strong word. I prefer dislike. I agree with the second half of your statement.

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I agree with that. I would include Bolton in the mix.

I would disagree, not for Lannister or Bolton, the RW is the end to Frey dominance. Theyve been dropping like crazy since Cat opend her eyes and I don't see the Brotherhood running out of rope. Theyre ridiculed by their Lannister overlords and have only bitter enemies on either side of their bridge, which has seemed to overpass their hatred towards Wildlings and Ironborm. Frey is doomed.

Lannister and Bolton, smart. Keep your hands clean Petyr tells Sansa

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Generally I shy away from the use of the word moral.

I agree. We're not canonizing a saint. Instead of moral and immoral, I like to think in practical and impractical. For Dany and Frey to insult the gods and kill their neighbors family, its impractical. For Tywin or Roose its practical

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Hate is a rather strong word. I prefer dislike. I agree with the second half of your statement.

I dont even dislike them. Heh. These weasel looking fools make me laugh

[Clegane'sPup]

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I would disagree, not for Lannister or Bolton, the RW is the end to Frey dominance. Theyve been dropping like crazy since Cat opend her eyes and I don't see the Brotherhood running out of rope. Theyre ridiculed by their Lannister overlords and have only bitter enemies on either side of their bridge, which has seemed to overpass their hatred towards Wildlings and Ironborm. Frey is doomed.

Lannister and Bolton, smart. Keep your hands clean Petyr tells Sansa

Just my way of looking at it. It seems to me the Frey's are not highly regarded in Westeros. Strategically Lannister/Baratheon got rid of an enemy.

I have to question who started the communication that instigated the plan?

My point being on the Lannister, Frey and Bolton side they accomplished what they set out to do.

Story wise Lannister, Frey and Bolton planned to kill people under the guise of a celebration. That is one reason I have no sympathy for any of  those Houses. The Red Wedding was premeditated slaughter.

 

[Hugorfonics]

27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It seems to me the Frey's are not highly regarded in Westeros.

Id put them above grumkins but below snarks for the average Westerosi

27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Strategically Lannister/Baratheon got rid of an enemy.

No doubt

27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I have to question who started the communication that instigated the plan?

I belive it was Walder, but I cant think of the scene where Tywin alludes to this

27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

My point being on the Lannister, Frey and Bolton side they accomplished what they set out to do.

What did Frey accomplish? Teaching Robb a lesson lol, he'll never do that again. Frey is getting temporary gains like Tyrell, but it wont last. Theyre not even proper Lords, they report to Petyr in Harrenhall.

Bolton gained more, as they probably would have lost everything if there was no RW. How much did Roose and Ramsay stay in contact in acok? Probably not much, but if they did then Roose was saving his family. (Plus Ramsays work was genius, paving his fathers road to power)

27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Story wise Lannister, Frey and Bolton planned to kill people under the guise of a celebration. That is one reason I have no sympathy for any of  those Houses. The Red Wedding was premeditated slaughter.

 

See the premeditated slaughter part, I dont find that immoral. (lol, what a world) As @Bernie Mac said, Oxcross wasnt pretty, neither was Aspator. But these Im ok with, the wedding part bugs me out. Weddings are supposed to be fun and lively, and Shakespeare says theyre comedic

[Kandrax]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Forrest Frey was a loyal and brave (by all accounts) support

Personally, i believe that his widow is somehow responsible for the House going morally downhill.

Or his son was thinking: "My father was loyal, and what got from it? Only death"

[dmfn]

Sun Tzu says something like "everything in war is deception."

If there isn't some sort of equivalent text in world that's been in a perpetual feudal system war zone for thousands of years I'd be surprised.

And we have at least one other example of breaking guest right in the text (Rat cook), albeit, not a happy ending. It's not impossible that some other guests simply 'disappear'. 

Militarily the RW and subsequent slaughter of Robb's army was an effective strategy. The biggest failing was the Freys inability to keep a lid on it. Who was alive to tell how things went down but their own allies? It's likely that the Boltons and Lannisters are responsible for circulating the guest right violation part of the scheme.

I mean, otherwise who's the witness that told the whole realm? Stoneheart? 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Personally, i believe that his widow is somehow responsible for the House going morally downhill.

Or his son was thinking: "My father was loyal, and what got from it? Only death"

Not his son. Forrest was KIA during the Dance of the Dragons, about 80 years before Walder was born.

[Bernie Mac]

14 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

It actually wasn't. One was a surprise attack by a declared enemy. The other was a declared ally inviting an army to a celebration, and then turning on them.

no, not really. Robb was well aware of the status between him and the Freys. 

Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt. 

Robb's problem was that half of the his own army wanted him dead, the men he thought would protect him from the Freys were actually against him. That is not really on the Freys. 

7 hours ago, zandru said:

 

We might then consider how Walder Frey handled it. Tywin persists in telling people that only Robb Stark was killed at Edmure's wedding.

No, he does not. 

7 hours ago, zandru said:

 

Maybe that was all he told Walder to do. The other 10,000 northmen were Frey freebies,

3,500, not 10k. 

7 hours ago, zandru said:

 

courtesy the twisted, vengeful mind of Old Walder.

 

More like courtesy of the 3,500 Northmen who wanted Robb gone. 

Roose is the person with the most to gain from ridding himself of a rival army for the North. 

2 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Personally, i believe that his widow is somehow responsible for the House going morally downhill.

 

before the Red Wedding what did the Freys do that was so morally bad? 

[Samsaptakas]

All Freys must die.

[Kandrax]

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Not his son. Forrest was KIA during the Dance of the Dragons, about 80 years before Walder was born.

I know that Forrest died 80 years before Walder's birth, i am just saying that there is possibility that after his death things went morally downhill.

Remember that Walder's father, apparently, quickly changed sides after failure of Second BR.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

no, not really. Robb was well aware of the status between him and the Freys. 

Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt. 

Robb's problem was that half of the his own army wanted him dead, the men he thought would protect him from the Freys were actually against him. That is not really on the Freys. 

No, he does not. 

3,500, not 10k. 

More like courtesy of the 3,500 Northmen who wanted Robb gone. 

Roose is the person with the most to gain from ridding himself of a rival army for the North. 

before the Red Wedding what did the Freys do that was so morally bad? 

I don't know, but not something close to it.

 

49 minutes ago, Samsaptakas said:

All Freys must die.

Why children?

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 8/11/2018 at 9:31 AM, Angel Eyes said:

I’d say that the in-universe hate for the Frey’s has mainly begun with Lord Walder, since his ancestor Forrest Frey was a loyal and brave (by all accounts) supporter of the Blacks during the Dance of the Dragons, and unlike Criston Cole supported her despite being rejected as a husband. And much of the family has inherited Walder’s unpleasantness.

I actually somewhat understand why Walder resents Hoster Tully; it’s not like Hoster didn’t do the exact same thing that Walder has Robb do in AGOT, where else did Ned and Jon get the Tully soldiers? And which one was Robb supposed to marry?

I wonder if Catelyn gets her dislike of Ned raising Jon under Winterfell’s roof from her father’s dislike of Walder and the fact that Walder does the same thing. At least he provides for his bastards.

Walder provides for his bastards while a lot of lords do not.  Hoster probably falls into the does not support their bastards category.  Hoster might have said, "Cat, he could have forced Ashara to abort their bastard."

[Seams]

16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I have to question who started the communication that instigated the plan?

 

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I belive it was Walder, but I cant think of the scene where Tywin alludes to this

I don't think Walder would have initiated the plan. I think Bolton has been looking for ways to undermine the Starks for years - maybe House Bolton has been at it for generations, based on their reluctance to bend the knee to the Starks, as described in TWoIaF. I don't know when Bolton let Tywin know that he wanted to support the Lannister cause, but my suspicion is that Roose initiated the plot to undermine Robb.

There is pretty strong circumstantial evidence (including literary clues, such as hunting and skinning wolves) in ACoK, Chap. 64 (Arya X) that Roose Bolton is already working for Tywin and is doing his best to make the Freys angry at Robb for breaking the marriage pact. Freys are already expressing doubts that Robb can win, and encouraging Roose to pass along the message that Robb should negotiate terms with the Lannisters.

We learn later that Tywin recruited Lady Westerling to get her daughter to seduce Robb, and that the Westerlings are rewarded for their role in undermining the Stark-Frey alliance.

After Robb had bedded and wedded Jeyne Westerling, it would have been easy for Roose to approach the Freys, telling them that he believes they are right about Robb's inability to win and proposing a way that House Frey and House Bolton can come out on the winning side while avenging the insult to Frey honor. The plan is sealed by the marriage of Roose to Fat Walda.

I don't know if Roose gets credit for coming up with the details of the massacre at the wedding feast, but I think he instigated the plan to bring down Robb Stark and offered his services to Tywin.

Oh, also. I think Roose planned that Ramsay would take over Winterfell in Robb's absence. Theon's unexpected invasion helped in one way, by providing an excuse for the Boltons to represent themselves as good northerners who were avenging the murders of Bran and Rickon by the evil Theon Greyjoy. But Theon's presence actually undermined the Bolton's real goal, which was to wipe out the male Starks. The Boltons really needed Bran and Rickon to die. By blundering into the Bolton plan to become wardens of the north, Theon actually enabled Bran and Rickon to escape, saving their lives and the Stark bloodline.

[zandru]

16 hours ago, dmfn said:

Sun Tzu says something like "everything in war is deception." [...] Militarily the RW and subsequent slaughter of Robb's army was an effective strategy.

If that's the case, then slaughtering a party approaching under a flag of truce, particularly if they're highly placed officers or lords, is a great idea. Why should there be any "rules"? Sieges should last until the last corpse is eaten! Armies should fight until one side can fight no more, and then as many of the survivors hunted to their deaths!

There's two main ways of seeing this: inviting allies in to celebrate and then ambushing and killing them is a good move. Or it's an atrocity. It seems lots of people can't see the difference between a battle between known and declared foes and slaughter of apparent friends at a party. Fine. This literally is a religious difference!

[dmfn]

7 minutes ago, zandru said:

If that's the case, then slaughtering a party approaching under a flag of truce, particularly if they're highly placed officers or lords, is a great idea. Why should there be any "rules"? Sieges should last until the last corpse is eaten! Armies should fight until one side can fight no more, and then as many of the survivors hunted to their deaths!

There's two main ways of seeing this: inviting allies in to celebrate and then ambushing and killing them is a good move. Or it's an atrocity. It seems lots of people can't see the difference between a battle between known and declared foes and slaughter of apparent friends at a party. Fine. This literally is a religious difference!

 

I fully recognize the difference. RW was shady af. Banging whatsherface and backing out of the reason for that alliance in the first place is also not exactly cool. Robb should have been more cautious. He knew the Freys were opportunists, at best, or untrustworthy, at worst. Turns out they were both. They're the bad guys. They be bad.