If People still hate the Freys, they need to reconsider their life priorities

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, that is exactly what I claimed. 

 

According to the sources at Riverrun it was similar. 

so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands.

if you have a source from the books that gives a more accurate description then I'd love to hear it.

 

Though given the Northmen were raping and pillaging from their own allies in the Riverlands, what makes you convinced they were treating their enemies better than their own allies? 

 

No its not. I claimed Walder deserved far better rewards then he did based on their input and continued work. You disagreed

Dude I said Frey. Is Young Wolf Frey? Your trying to proove Frey feared greater threats from Tywin then the average rebal Lord. Do you remember that, or do you never look back at the last posts or what?

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Emmon was never a hostage, he and his children fought on the side of the crown during the war. Emmon is the one ordering Daven, the new Warden of the West, around in AFFC.

How exactly is he a hostage? 

How on earth do you work this out? There are more Freys at Darry than there are Lannisters. No one ever calls her or Emmon a hostage

Do you actually understand what a hostage is, as going by your two examples it appears you don't.  Neither Emmon or Ami are forced to be where they are, they have both chosen to be where they are and are not there against their or their families wishes.

Riverrun is not in Lannister hands and given there are more Freys than Lannisters there you clearly are confused about the situation.

Numbers were the last thing needed at Riverrun. A Lannister army already invested the castle, and an even larger force of Freys; 

 

the same was true at Darry

Darry had changed hands several times during the fighting, and its castle had been burned once and sacked at least twice... Within the walls, crossbowmen walked the ramparts, some in crimson cloaks and lion-crested helms, others in the blue and grey of House Frey.

 

They are also Freys like Cat is still a Tully.  They are also still connected to Walder much like the grandchildren of Hoster would be despite their last names.

and? Surely that is a bonus, not a negative.

lol evidence that Roslin is? You have completely invented that. 

Frey is policing the riverlands, from zombies and monster wolves, despite not being it's overlord. Work with less pay. Lannister has Frey as a buffer with no real power. Its an extremely precarious situation as Genna kept going on about.

No. Shes lady Stark, not Lady Tully. Lady Stark, or Lady Arryn, who did nothing for Hoster because her place is protecting the Vale. Families change families. 

No I didnt invent that, she was crying throughout the whole fucking wedding, Edmure vouched for her character

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

no, they did not. You have made that up, at no point have they given away Winterfell, it is still Stark property. What they did do is give them Jeyne Poole while they kept the real Stark heir, with the intention of reclaiming it after the Winter. 

Except it is not Arya and even if it was, she is the younger sister while the crown kept the real heiress. 

Since when did a Stark need a wolf to prove who they were? When has that ever been an issue in the books? 

What a ridiculous argument. 

now she is, but not at the time of the deal, which is what you are arguing against. 

What? Lannister gave "Arya" to Ramsay, that means Winterfell. Whatever plans they had for Sansa left with Jeyne from KL.

Roose, Warden able to give castles away. Frey,  not. How can you think Frey got a good deal?

Since Wyman told Davos to bring Rickon with Shaggydog for said reason. Alaynes a pretty girl of approximat age, like Young Griff. Theyll wash the dye out their hair and hope for the best

Shes still a voice going against Theon. Look, no one thinks thats Arya, it doesn't matter though the deeds been done. People believe in Arya like they do in Roberts son, which is to say at swordpoint

(Im not sure you realize how big this is, Tommen decreed, Lady Arya of Winterfell. Sansas army, Robbs will, Wymans Rickon, they all fall short to Arya (Jeyne or not)

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Nothing was set in stone. Tywin was free to change his mind, just like the Tyrells were and the Greyjoys did. 

A marriage alliance was needed with either the Lannisters, Tyrells or Hightowers for the best chance of a lasting peace.

lol of course it was, at no point have I claimed it was not. 

That does not mean the crown was secured. 

I'll ask again, you claimed an alliance was not needed and I asked based on what?

Except they didn't. No Lannister has been king. Joffrey and Tommen are legally Baratheons and rightfully Waters, what they are not is Lannisters. 

Dude, I know you know this book better then that. 

.

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever.

.

Robert was king because he had a claim unlike everyone else, short Martell. 

His crown was not stable but marrying your strongest vassel is the stupidest thing to do.

You can call em whatever the hell you want but they look dress and are ruled by Lannister.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That's actually pretty dumb. It is a good idea after a civil war to align with the most powerful faction. 

yeah, your knowledge of history seems to be a bit blurry. England then had a policy of both king and heir sharing power (thus Henry the young king) so nobles, angered with his father's heavy handed rule, saw him as a pretender. 

Eleanor's father William died before she married Henry, her family was not the issue. 

Which Augustus are you referring to, I hope it is not Octavius as that would be a bizarre conclusion to come to. 

The Hightowers were not the most powerful vassal. 

And in fairness the Dance was created by Aegon's poor rule, him overlooking the opinions of the realm, who wanted a male heir and ignoring his bastard grandsons.

No man. Thats the dumbest thing you can do. Its like the entire Han dynasty, or War of Roses. Powerful lords are cool. Family is cool. Combine it, suddenly theyre the cool ones.

Aquataine never left Henry alone, his marriage resulted in rebellious children (and angry lords) who did their best to destroy what he built.

Yea man, Octavian. How many emperors were related to him and how many to his wife Livia? It can be argued that her son was a decent emperor, but when it comes to Nero and the rest, no argument. (Maybe Claudius but that was very short)

The Hightowers were powerfull enough to steal the government, why shouldnt Lannister? Which they totally did.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Only Emmon, and only because he assumed.

Oh, gods be good. "You are not his overlord, ser. Read your parchment. You were granted Riverrun with its lands and incomes, no more. Petyr Baelish is the Lord Paramount of the Trident. Riverrun will be subject to the rule of Harrenhal."

 

Walder commited the red wedding, why would he assume that his son would become his ruler as a result? 

At no point in the books has Walder been offered the Rule of the Riverlands. 

lol no, she did not. Genna did not even want Riverrrun, she wanted Darry, she was never under the impression that her husband was going to be the ruler of the Riverlands, she laughs at his reaction. 

Lady Genna gave a snort. "There is no need to trouble Her Grace with such nonsense. Emm, why don't you step outside and have a breath of air?"

 

 

Genna's reaction.  And if Walder made a deal for any Frey to become ruler of the Riverlands it would be for him, not one of his sons of  a, now, cadet branch of House Frey. 

 

Petyr contributed more, he brought the Tyrells and Reach on side, he got the Vale to remain neutral in the war while accepting Joffrey as king and he sabotaged Ned's plans to imprison Cersei and children and crown Stannis. 

From Tywin's point of view Littlefingers contribution was far greater than Walder's. It is not even close.

Why else commit the RW if you dont get massive rewards? Dont tell me this is about a daughters hurt feelings.

If Walder expected this and is happy then hes an idiot beyond measure. Like beyond Mace Tyrell level.

Interesting. Gennas reaction makes me think she thought that. She didnt stop her husband from sounding stupid and snorted when Jaime said no

Petyr was like the delivery pizza boy. Its good when its hot but its all pizza. He basically had the same job as Ser Cleos, in contrast Walder ended the war at a heavy price. Your right, its not even close.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb's army was beaten by Roose's army. It was a battle that was always going to happen. 

He didn't need to, he sent the majority of the Lannister army home. 

Lord Stannis appeared to have left only a small garrison behind him when he sailed north, so two thousand men would be more than sufficient, Cersei had judged.

The rest of the westermen had gone back to their wives and children, to rebuild their homes, plant their fields, and bring in one last harvest. Cersei had taken Tommen round their camps before they marched, to let them cheer their little king. 

 

 

The war was pretty much over, the crown was happy to disband their army. 

 

 

Tywin did not need an army to protect himself from the Tyrells.

We are talking about the deal Tywin made with Walder and Roose, you are clearly confused about the timeline. 

Neither Bronn or Griff were threats when the deal was made. 

 

Of course, why would he not? Once again you seem to be confused about the conversation. 

It may well be, what does this have to do with my point? 

Yes, she was.

Again, what point are you trying to make? What exactly do you think I have said? 

lol, Riverrun is one of the richest properties in the Riverlands

Placed as it was, Riverrun soon proved to have great strategic value, and the petty kings contending during the age of anarchy soon began to vie for the support of House Tully. Axel and his descendants grew wealthy and powerful,

 

you  clearly have no idea what you are talking about. 

A battle that was always going to happen? Lol what does that even mean?

Yes, Riverrun would be nice if it werent so poisoned. And even if, its not worth doing all the work of Lord Paramount without the title to go with it. Frey soldiers everywhere, Frey rewards scarce. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb was never in a position to destroy the Twins. What on earth are you talking about? 

Robb was retreating home, his war in the South was effectively over, at the very least till some point in the next summer. 

Of course he was. When he was in front of them with his whole northern army.

Robb was not retreating home, he was going to fight ironborn nor was he going to abandon the Riverlands as he left his wife there

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, I clearly do. You are confusing feudalism with an absolute monarchy, powerful feudal lords who could make deals to improve their station did so

two of those Houses did ask for terms

"This is your royal pardon for Lord Gawen Westerling, his lady wife, and his daughter Jeyne, welcoming them back into the king's peace," Ser Kevan said. "This is a pardon for Lord Jonos Bracken of Stone Hedge. This is a pardon for Lord Vance. This for Lord Goodbrook. This for Lord Mooton of Maidenpool."

just like Hoster owed his fealty to Aerys, yet he negotiated a better deal

You are clearly very misunderstood about feudal politics, GRRM's feudal politics in particular

• in the Dance of the Dragons did all the Reach lords obey Lord Tyrell? 
• In the Blackfyre wars did all the Westerland lords obey Lord Lannister? 
• In Robert's rebellion did all the Vale lords obey Lord Arryn? 

What deal did Hoster negotiate? Look, I know your heartbroken that Robb broke his vow but Walder did too. Its good to be the king, people expect less. Walder swore fealty, his bannermen shouted king of the trident. He did betray his king.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol you were proven wrong, time and time again in that thread. 

Jesus Christ. First why the fuck are you even bringing this up? 

Secondly, you didny even post in there. Like why set up a thread if your not even going to be in it?

And third, I wasnt. Stannis lost his navy and most of his men. Morale was at an all time low. He was on the opposite side of the bay with all gates closed to him, therefore making zero progress in the battle. Tyrion won Blackwater as he tells himself that.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

No its not. I claimed Walder deserved far better rewards then he did based on their input and continued work. You disagreed

And I asked what better rewards? 

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Dude I said Frey. Is Young Wolf Frey? Your trying to proove Frey feared greater threats fgrandsons.no hen the average rebal Lord. Do you remember that, or do you never look back at the last posts or what?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I will gladly go back over it, but can you clarify what you are saying and which point of mine you are replying to. 

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Frey is policing the riverlands, from zombies and monster wolves, despite not being it's overlord.

No, he's policing his own lands. Can  you quote in the books where he is policing Vance, Goodbrook, Piper, Bracken, Blackwood etc. lands. 

 

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Work with less pay. Lannister has Frey as a buffer with no real power. Its an extremely precarious situation as Genna kept going on about.

When does Genna go on about it? Quote all these times. 

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No. Shes lady Stark, not Lady Tully.

She is both. 

"Just what it appears," Littlefinger said, easing himself onto a window seat. "A brothel. Can you think of a less likely place to find a Catelyn Tully?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jaime Lannister poked at Ned's chest with the gilded sword that had sipped the blood of the last of the Dragonkings. "Would she? The noble Catelyn Tully of Riverrun murder a hostage? I think … not." 

 

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No I didnt invent that, she was crying throughout the whole fucking wedding, Edmure vouched for her character

Of course she was crying, her wedding was a bloodbath. but you claimed that she was anti Walder (Walder being her actual father), without any evidence. 

You want to claim that Roslin is against her father then back it up with evidence from the books as to my knowledge we have not been told one way or the other. 

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What? Lannister gave "Arya" to Ramsay, that means Winterfell. Whatever plans they had for Sansa left with Jeyne from KL.

Except for those of us who actually took the time to read the books know Tywin had a plan for Wintefell. 

The man who weds Sansa Stark can claim Winterfell in her name," his uncle Kevan put in. "Had that not occurred to you?"

now I am sorry to inform you, but squatters rights is not recognized in Westeros, Winterfell does not become Arya's simply because Sansa or any other superior claimant is elsewhere. 

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Roose, Warden able to give castles away.

Where is that claimed? Quote when Roose has been able to give away a castle, you seem to be making things up again. 

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Since Wyman told Davos to bring Rickon with Shaggydog for said reason. Alaynes a pretty girl of approximat age, like Young Griff. Theyll wash the dye out their hair and hope for the best

I have no idea what part of my post you are replying to here. You are either going to have to reply to the relevant part or be more clear in what you are trying to say. 

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Shes still a voice going against Theon. Look, no one thinks thats Arya, it doesn't matter though the deeds been done. People believe in Arya like they do in Roberts son, which is to say at swordpoint

No idea what point you are trying to make here. 

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(Im not sure you realize how big this is, Tommen decreed, Lady Arya of Winterfell. Sansas army, Robbs will, Wymans Rickon, they all fall short to Arya (Jeyne or not)

Did he, can you quote it? 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=arya+winterfell&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=affc

 

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Dude, I know you know this book better then that. 

clearly you don't. 

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.

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever.

what point of mine do you imagine this disproves?

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.

Robert was king because he had a claim unlike everyone else, short Martell. 

No, he was king because the majority of the realm wanted him to be king. He needed the support of one of the Lannisters or Tyrells to guarantee peace. 

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His crown was not stable but marrying your strongest vassel is the stupidest thing to do.

lol come on, this is clearly wrong. Making an alliance with your strongest vassal after a civil war is never stupid, it is the pragmatic choice to make.

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You can call em whatever the hell you want but they look dress and are ruled by Lannister.

lol what are you going on about? There was no agreement between Robert and Tywin that Robert would allow himself to be cuckolded or that he would take no interest in the raising of his heirs. 

These are not issues of marrying a powerful vassal, it is an incredibly dumb argument to make. 

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No man. Thats the dumbest thing you can do. Its like the entire Han dynasty, or War of Roses. Powerful lords are cool. Family is cool. Combine it, suddenly theyre the cool ones.

Except the reason the war of the roses happened was because the Woodvilles were not powerful, they were too lowborn for a king and were easily took down by Richard III. Had Edward IV listened to the Earl of Warwick there may never have been a war of the roses. 

 

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Aquataine never left Henry alone, his marriage resulted in rebellious children (and angry lords) who did their best to destroy what he built.

It was not his marriage that resulted in rebellious children, but that Henry favored his second youngest son, John, much to the chagrin of Henry the younger. 

 

And it was not Eleanor who gave Henry jnr the power to rebel but the French kings, who historically, always supported rebellion in England. 

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Yea man, Octavian. How many emperors were related to him

None, there were no emperors before him (roman at least)

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

and how many to his wife Livia?

He only ever had one daughter. All of Julia's sons died before him. 

What is your point? 

 

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The Hightowers were powerfull enough to steal the government, why shouldnt Lannister? Which they totally did.

The Hightowers did not. Aegon II stripped his grandfather of his title, Otto lost power when his grandson became king.

Tell me how the Hightowers stole the government once Aegon II became king? What extra lands or positions they gained. 

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Why else commit the RW if you dont get massive rewards?

They did get a massive reward, Riverrun is a massive reward. 

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Dont tell me this is about a daughters hurt feelings.

lol not once have I or anyone else made that argument. Have you convinced yourself that someone has claimed that? 

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Interesting. Gennas reaction makes me think she thought that. 

Her reaction of laughing at  him and telling him to be quiet? or her earlier reaction of claiming she wanted Darry?

At no point does she suggest that her husband now rules the Riverlands nor is she shocked when Jaime makes this clear. 

 

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Petyr was like the delivery pizza boy. Its good when its hot but its all pizza. He basically had the same job as Ser Cleos, in contrast Walder ended the war at a heavy price. Your right, its not even close.

yup, Littlefinger did more. 

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A battle that was always going to happen? Lol what does that even mean?

You don't understand what that phrase means? 

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Yes, Riverrun would be nice if it werent so poisoned. And even if, its not worth doing all the work of Lord Paramount without the title to go with it. Frey soldiers everywhere, Frey rewards scarce. 

Except two new castles. 

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Of course he was. When he was in front of them with his whole northern army.

no, he was not. 

One glance was sufficient to tell Catelyn that the castle would not be taken by storm. The battlements bristled with spears and swords and scorpions, there was an archer at every crenel and arrow slit, the drawbridge was up, the portcullis down, the gates closed and barred.

The Greatjon began to curse and swear as soon as he saw what awaited them. Lord Rickard Karstark glowered in silence. "That cannot be assaulted, my lords," Roose Bolton announced.

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Robb was not retreating home, he was going to fight ironborn nor was he going to abandon the Riverlands as he left his wife there

he was retreating home, in his own words he was abandoning them

 And what of the Trident, if I turn north? I can't ask the river lords to abandon their own people."

"No," said Catelyn. "Leave them to guard their own, and win back the north with northmen."

 

Now maybe you don't know what retreat means, but withdrawing your army and returning home, even if you plan to one day return, is a retreat. 

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What deal did Hoster negotiate?

The marriages of his daughters

You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion,

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Jesus Christ. First why the fuck are you even bringing this up? 

 

It was interesting, every time we have had the discussion in the last year you have never backed down from your claims and as soon as I opened it up to others you abandoned it. 

 

 

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Secondly, you didny even post in there.

Of course I didn't, I was bored of having the same discussion with you and was  convinced you were only invested because you of who you were arguing against rather than interest in the actual topic. The fact that you quickly lost interest in the discussion speaks volumes. I imagine if I actually had posted a reply to you in that thread you'd still be arguing you were right.

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Like why set up a thread if your not even going to be in it?

I was genuinely curious if anyone else agreed with you, not one person did. 

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And third, I wasnt. Stannis lost his navy and most of his men. Morale was at an all time low. He was on the opposite side of the bay with all gates closed to him, therefore making zero progress in the battle. Tyrion won Blackwater as he tells himself that.

lol why are you arguing with me about it? Plenty of people proved you wrong in that thread and you sensibly stopped replying, why bring it up with me and not them? 

[BlackLightning]

On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 9:35 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

People thinking like this is the reason why somebody like Renly decided to take the throne from his brother.  We should not blame Renly at all.   If the Baratheons who have no right to the throne took it, why not a little brother from his big brother.  Rules no longer apply.  If the Baratheons can take the throne when they have no right to it why not a Lannister.  Rules no longer apply.

Exactly.

That's why GRRM is a genius.

Removing Aerys and/or putting limitations on the power of the Iron Throne is one thing. Look at the Magna Carta.

Breaking the Targaryen dynasty by killing 80% of the Targaryen royal family and then chasing the remaining 20% into exile...that's a completely different thing.

The breakdown of law and order and radical changes in the terms of engagement have put all of Westeros in a position where they are about to get screwed over...and deservedly so.

 

[Sea Dragon]

On August 31, 2018 at 9:35 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

People thinking like this is the reason why somebody like Renly decided to take the throne from his brother.  We should not blame Renly at all.   If the Baratheons who have no right to the throne took it, why not a little brother from his big brother.  Rules no longer apply.  If the Baratheons can take the throne when they have no right to it why not a Lannister.  Rules no longer apply.

 

20 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Exactly.

That's why GRRM is a genius.

Removing Aerys and/or putting limitations on the power of the Iron Throne is one thing. Look at the Magna Carta.

Breaking the Targaryen dynasty by killing 80% of the Targaryen royal family and then chasing the remaining 20% into exile...that's a completely different thing.

The breakdown of law and order and radical changes in the terms of engagement have put all of Westeros in a position where they are about to get screwed over...and deservedly so.

 

Danaerys is my favorite character. She is beautiful and a Targaryen and she has dragons. But even Danaerys knows her father lost the throne which is why she is going to reconquer like her ancestor Aegon did and make everyone submit to her family again as the rulers. 

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       A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V

The grove of burnt olive trees in which she'd raised her pavilion stood beside the sea, between the Dothraki camp and that of the Unsullied. When the horses had been saddled, Dany and her companions set out along the shoreline, away from the city. Even so, she could feel Meereen at her back, mocking her. When she looked over one shoulder, there it stood, the afternoon sun blazing off the bronze harpy atop the Great Pyramid. Inside Meereen the slavers would soon be reclining in their fringed tokars to feast on lamb and olives, unborn puppies, honeyed dormice and other such delicacies, whilst outside her children went hungry. A sudden wild anger filled her. I will bring you down, she swore.

As they rode past the stakes and pits that surrounded the eunuch encampment, Dany could hear Grey Worm and his sergeants running one company through a series of drills with shield, shortsword, and heavy spear. Another company was bathing in the sea, clad only in white linen breechclouts. The eunuchs were very clean, she had noticed. Some of her sellswords smelled as if they had not washed or changed their clothes since her father lost the Iron Throne, but the Unsullied bathed each evening, even if they'd marched all day. When no water was available they cleansed themselves with sand, the Dothraki way.     

 

[Jeeves]

On 9/4/2018 at 10:31 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Exactly.

That's why GRRM is a genius.

Removing Aerys and/or putting limitations on the power of the Iron Throne is one thing. Look at the Magna Carta.

Breaking the Targaryen dynasty by killing 80% of the Targaryen royal family and then chasing the remaining 20% into exile...that's a completely different thing.

The breakdown of law and order and radical changes in the terms of engagement have put all of Westeros in a position where they are about to get screwed over...and deservedly so.

 

 

On 9/4/2018 at 10:53 AM, Sea Dragon said:

 

Danaerys is my favorite character. She is beautiful and a Targaryen and she has dragons. But even Danaerys knows her father lost the throne which is why she is going to reconquer like her ancestor Aegon did and make everyone submit to her family again as the rulers. 

 

Lands, titles, lordships are there for the taking because the rule of the law broke down with the rebellion in the minds of the ambitious.  The rebellion gave Renly the moral opening that he needed to push Stannis aside.  Robert's taking of the throne gave Renly and his supporters the legal opening to pass Stannis in the line of succession.  We can debate whether the rebellion by Robert was justified but the fact that it created a can of worms is fact.  

[Rufus Snow]

4 hours ago, The First Bloodrider said:

Lands, titles, lordships are there for the taking because the rule of the law broke down with the rebellion in the minds of the ambitious.  The rebellion gave Renly the moral opening that he needed to push Stannis aside.  Robert's taking of the throne gave Renly and his supporters the legal opening to pass Stannis in the line of succession.  We can debate whether the rebellion by Robert was justified but the fact that it created a can of worms is fact.  

No, no, no, and no again: if the rule of law breaks down there ARE NO titles or lordships. They ONLY exist in the context of the rule of law - once that goes then all claimants are warlords, nothing more. Renly never had any moral or legal claim over Stannis, and he knew it, he said so himself:

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn III

"All this of snakes and incest is droll, but it changes nothing. You may well have the better claim, Stannis, but I still have the larger army." Renly's hand slid inside his cloak. Stannis saw, and reached at once for the hilt of his sword, but before he could draw steel his brother produced . . . a peach. "Would you like one, brother?" Renly asked, smiling. "From Highgarden. You've never tasted anything so sweet, I promise you." He took a bite. Juice ran from the corner of his mouth.

All Renly had was force of arms (like Robert) - which is not to be sneezed at - but morally and legally he had nothing.

However, what does this have to do with the topic of the thread. I thought this was supposed to be 'Sympathy for the weasels'????

[Blackfish Tully]

On 8/23/2018 at 9:38 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

• Vances
• Pipers
• Tullys
• Brackens
• Blackwoods 
• Mallisters

You're right that there were not many Riverlanders there, but there were quite a few people there from important houses. Whether or not they had relatives who died or were captured, it's not something they'll be like to forget.

 

I think there might be a little underestimating how many Riverlanders were killed in the Red Wedding especially blood relatives of some of the most powerful houses in the Riverlands , the following are only the ones we know about because Jaimie happened to talk to the different Lords of the Houses  , We don't know how many more Riverlords lost relatives to the Red Wedding that we don't know about, House Mallister , Paege and Smallwood would surely have representatives at the Wedding of their liege lord so they must have some losses especially House Malliister since  Patrek Mallister was captured there (he would likely have had other Mallister men with him ) and even if there were no Maillister's killed there is no way that Lord jason will forgive Black Walder threats to hang Patrek until he surrendered . 

Brackens :

"The Mountain's dead, as is my father," Jaime told him, "and some might say your head was recompense enough. You did declare for Stark, and kept faith with him until Lord Walder killed him."

"Murdered him, and a dozen good men of my own blood." Lord Jonos turned his head and spat.

Blackwood :

I have more squires than I know what to do with. Every time I take a piss, they fight for the right to hold my cock. And you have six sons, my lord, not four."

"Once. Robert was my youngest and never strong. He died nine days ago, of a looseness of the bowels. Lucas was murdered at the Red Wedding. Walder Frey's fourth wife was a Blackwood, but kinship counts for no more than guest right at the Twins. I should like to bury Lucas beneath the tree, but the Freys have not yet seen fit to return his bones to me."

Piper :

Where is Marq, answer me that? What have you done with my son? He was a guest at your bloody wedding."

"And our honored guest he shall remain," said Edwyn, "until you prove your loyalty to His Grace, King Tommen."

"Five knights and twenty men-at-arms went with Marq to the Twins," said Piper. "Are they your guests as well, Frey?"

Karyl Vance turned to Jaime. "Lord Piper spoke from grief. Marq is his firstborn son. Those knights who accompanied him to the Twins were nephews and cousins all."

Vance : 

One of the Vances was hamstrung by Black Walder ( i doubt that that was the only Vance killed ) 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 9/14/2018 at 10:45 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

I think there might be a little underestimating how many Riverlanders were killed in the Red Wedding

 

By who? Can you quote the people who have underestimated the numbers?

Thirty-five hundred they were, thirty-five hundred who had been blooded in the Whispering Wood, who had reddened their swords at the Battle of the Camps, at Oxcross, Ashemark, and the Crag, and all through the gold-rich hills of the Lannister west. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north.

According to Cat it was not many, unless you have some other understanding of modest retinue? 

[Blackfish Tully]

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

By who? Can you quote the people who have underestimated the numbers?

Thirty-five hundred they were, thirty-five hundred who had been blooded in the Whispering Wood, who had reddened their swords at the Battle of the Camps, at Oxcross, Ashemark, and the Crag, and all through the gold-rich hills of the Lannister west. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north.

According to Cat it was not many, unless you have some other understanding of modest retinue? 

Marg Piper had 5 Knights and 20 men at arms accompany him and that seems like it would be a normal, modest amount for each of the Riverlands Houses to send to the Wedding. Those 5 Knights were all nephews and cousins of Lord Piper so that's 5 family members of the Pipers that were probably killed at the Red Wedding . Blackwoods , Brakens (he lost a son and a dozen of his own blood ) , Vance all probably lost a similar amount of men and a good bit of them would have been blood relation to the Lords of the Houses and that's a significant loss for any House , not something quickly forgotten .

[Pontius Pilate]

On 8/9/2018 at 2:37 AM, Frey Kings said:

First and foremost, I guarantee you if the ASOIAF didn't start out with the Starks, the average fan wouldn't loathe the Freys as much.

 

Freys started out from the bottom and become one of the top 10 richest houses. And Yet, no other 'historical' house have showed them any respect. They followed Aegon against the Hoares and then pledged to the Tullys as their liege lord. But yet, The Tullys always looked down upon them.  Regarding the rebellion, maybe half of the Riverlords sided with Rhaegar? It was smart for them to stay neutral instead of running off to die because some guy was butt hurt for losing his woman to another man. When Robb came down and promised to marry one of the Freys, House Frey was committed and gave him one of the strongest armies and their fighters were fierce. Lots of Freys died for Robb's cause even though one of them was married directly into the Lannisters. The Freys were dedicated to the end until Robb came back from the Craig married to another woman. Then the Lannisters started breathing down their neck and then the RW happened. 

 

Its a very grey house. There are much worse characters in the lore both past & present. That can inflict more harm than the Freys ever could. 

 

 

So please, unless you're holier than thou. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

 

The readers who hate them feel that way because the Freys beat up on a house they like.  The Freys are not evil.  They played the game to win and pushed aside ethics to do it.  Question how the same people feel about 7 versus 3 combat.  Are they going to hate on the Reeds if we learn later that Howland cheated against Arthur Dayne?  But as they say "all is fair in love and war" and that might be applicable here.  Don't hate the player, hate the game is the way GRRM feels about it.  His writing suggests as much to this reader.

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Marg Piper had 5 Knights and 20 men at arms accompany him and that seems like it would be a normal, modest amount for each of the Riverlands Houses to send to the Wedding.

Read the quote again

Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north.

Few Lords or heirs went to the Wedding. Mallister and Piper were the only heirs there, the only Lord was Goodbrook (though Garse Goodbrook was fighting for the Freys and House Goodbrook were one of the first to rejoin the crown). 

25 is not going to be the normal amount, otherwise Vance would not need to explain why Piper was so angry. 

 

10 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Those 5 Knights were all nephews and cousins of Lord Piper so that's 5 family members of the Pipers that were probably killed at the Red Wedding . Blackwoods , Brakens (he lost a son and a dozen of his own blood ) , Vance all probably lost a similar amount of men and a good bit of them would have been blood relation to the Lords of the Houses and that's a significant loss for any House , not something quickly forgotten .

I'm sorry, are you under the impression that somebody claimed that it would be soon forgotten? 

[Blackfish Tully]

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

. 

25 is not going to be the normal amount, otherwise Vance would not need to explain why Piper was so angry. 

 

I

 I would think that 25 would be the minimum amount any Lord would send . You do realize the Riverlands are still at war right?  You think that Patrek Mallister the heir to Seaguard would travel with less then 25 men ? That seems hard to believe , same with Lucas Blackwood , Brackens , Vance etc..  They do have to return home after the wedding and a small party would be easy prey. 

we know the Piper's had 25 and Lord Bracken lost a dozen men of his own blood so we know he had at least 12 at the wedding . 

The Vance noble who was killed would have had an escort as well .  

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

 I would think that 25 would be the minimum amount any Lord would send . You do realize the Riverlands are still at war right?  You think that Patrek Mallister the heir to Seaguard would travel with less then 25 men ? That seems hard to believe , same with Lucas Blackwood , Brackens , Vance etc..  They do have to return home after the wedding and a small party would be easy prey. 

we know the Piper's had 25 and Lord Bracken lost a dozen men of his own blood so we know he had at least 12 at the wedding . 

The Vance noble who was killed would have had an escort as well .  

 

Ryman Frey rode back to the twins in what was ostensibly a safe area with what Walder Rivers called a small escort:

“Three knights and a dozen men-at-arms,” said Rivers. “It is almost as if they knew that he would be returning to the Twins, and with a small escort.”

I'd imagine that each river lord who attended the wedding would have at least a similarly sized retinue. The Karstark broken men and the mountain are still west (and south?) of the Green Fork. Piper's men travel together to KL with a "troop of men."

It wouldn't surprise me if there were a few hundred Riverlanders and more than 2-3 prominent but unnamed relatives amongst that group. We know one out of Piper's group and he had five blood relatives along with him

 

[Bernie Mac]

15 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

I'd imagine that each river lord who attended the wedding would have at least a similarly sized retinue. 

I guess I will post the same quote for 3rd time in two days as people seem incapable of accepting it. 

Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north.

Marq Piper, the heir  of Pinkmaiden, is there because he is a close friend of friend of Edmure's not because every Riverlord has attended. 

"Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that," Ser Marq Piper snapped. He was a swaggering bantam rooster of a youth, too young and too hot-blooded for Ned's taste, though a fast friend of Catelyn's brother, Edmure Tully.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edmure had not returned after his first visit, preferring to spend his days with Marq Piper and Patrek Mallister, listening to Rymund the Rhymer's verses about the battle at the Stone Mill. Robb is not Edmure, though. Robb will see me.

 

I kind of doubt every Riverland House is as well represented in the host as House Piper

 

 

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

I guess I will post the same quote for 3rd time in two days as people seem incapable of accepting it. 

Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north.

Marq Piper, the heir  of Pinkmaiden, is there because he is a close friend of friend of Edmure's not because every Riverlord has attended. 

 

 

We know Marg Piper is there with 5 Knights and 20 men at arms , Patrek Mallister the heir to Seaguard is there and you would think he would have an equal amount of men to Piper  considering the Riverlands are still at war , we know that Lord Bracken lost a dozen men of his own blood so you would have to assume that those dozen men also had men at arms with them as well.  Lucas Blackwood would be traveling with a reasonably strong escort as well as i would think as well as the Vance who was killed , he would not be traveling alone in a war zone . 

These are just the ones that we know about because Jaimie Lannister talked to Vance , Bracken and Blackwood but  we don't really have any idea who else was there because the POV system really limits the information that we have  . If Lord Piper did not lose his cool and Lord Vance have to apologize for him we would not know about the 5 nephew and cousins Knights and 20 men at arms that the Pipers may have lost at the Red Wedding . Was there any members of House Ryger or Paege there ? we have no idea because they were not at the siege of Riverrun and Jaimie did not have any interactions with there Lord or discuss them with anybody , 

but the banners he did not see gave him pause. The silver eagle of Mallister was nowhere in evidence; nor the red horse of Bracken, the willow of the Rygers, the twining snakes of Paege. Though all had renewed their fealty to the Iron Throne, none had come to join the siege. The Brackens were fighting the Blackwoods, Jaime knew, which accounted for their absence, but as for the rest . . .

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I guess I will post the same quote for 3rd time in two days as people seem incapable of accepting it. 

Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north.

Marq Piper, the heir  of Pinkmaiden, is there because he is a close friend of friend of Edmure's not because every Riverlord has attended. 

"Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that," Ser Marq Piper snapped. He was a swaggering bantam rooster of a youth, too young and too hot-blooded for Ned's taste, though a fast friend of Catelyn's brother, Edmure Tully.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edmure had not returned after his first visit, preferring to spend his days with Marq Piper and Patrek Mallister, listening to Rymund the Rhymer's verses about the battle at the Stone Mill. Robb is not Edmure, though. Robb will see me.

 

I kind of doubt every Riverland House is as well represented in the host as House Piper

You can keep posting it but it’s relevance is up for question for the reasons we keep explaining.

I could post *my* reasoning again but I’m not trying to be patronizing nor do I particularly care if I convince you. 

[Bernie Mac]

On 9/19/2018 at 7:13 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

You can keep posting it but it’s relevance is up for question for the reasons we keep explaining.

How is Cat's quote open for question just because you don't like it? You have to bring something to the table. 

On 9/19/2018 at 7:13 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

I could post *my* reasoning again

lol what reasoning? You have came to a conclusion not supported by the text. There are not hundreds of Riverlanders in the 3,500 party. Not even close. 

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 9/18/2018 at 1:24 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

We know Marg Piper is there with 5 Knights and 20 men at arms , Patrek Mallister the heir to Seaguard is there and you would think he would have an equal amount of men to Piper  considering the Riverlands are still at war ,

Right, so possibly 50. 

On 9/18/2018 at 1:24 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

we know that Lord Bracken lost a dozen men of his own blood so you would have to assume that those dozen men also had men at arms with them as well.

Why would you assume that? Podrick is a Payne, he does not bring a retinue with him from his house every where he goes. 

On 9/18/2018 at 1:24 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

  Lucas Blackwood would be traveling with a reasonably strong escort as well

Why would he? He's travelling with an army, why would he need a strong escort?

On 9/18/2018 at 1:24 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

as i would think as well as the Vance who was killed , he would not be traveling alone in a war zone . 

He's not, he is with a 3,500 army. 

 

[Blackfish Tully]

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would he? He's travelling with an army, why would he need a strong escort?

He's not, he is with a 3,500 army. 

 

That 3500 army is going North so how is Lucas Blackwood getting back home ? If you were Lord Blackwood would you allow your son to be traveling around the Riverlands during wartime with less then 25 to 50 men to protect him ? 

 

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is Cat's quote open for question just because you don't like it? You have to bring something to the table. 

lol what reasoning? You have came to a conclusion not supported by the text. There are not hundreds of Riverlanders in the 3,500 party. Not even close. 

 

Cat's quote is definitely open to question because we have no idea what she means by "modest retinue" 

does that mean there were 50 Riverlanders there? 100? 300? what do you think she means by "modest retinue" 

The North had 3500 men there so a 300 men Riverland group could be considered modest especially considering it was the Heir to the Riverlands being married . 

Also when Cat was referring to to Edmure's "modest retinue of friends " was she counting the Knights and men at arms that would be accompanying the Riverland Nobles ? 

Cat is the wife to the Lord of the North and the daughter of the Lord of the Riverlands so her idea of what a "modest retinue" would be is  different to what a normal person would mean. It would be comparable to a middle  class girl saying she had a modest size wedding and there were 30 people there and a rich girl saying she had a modest size wedding and there were 300 people there . 

 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is Cat's quote open for question just because you don't like it? You have to bring something to the table. 

lol what reasoning? You have came to a conclusion not supported by the text. There are not hundreds of Riverlanders in the 3,500 party. Not even close. 

 

You think you're reasoning is ironclad. Others do not, hence the discussion. 

Feel free to agree or disagree but @Blackfish Tully clearly have more to discuss