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If People still hate the Freys, they need to reconsider their life priorities

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On 8/12/2018 at 6:32 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

If the Freys had just closed the Twins to the northmen, Robb's army would have been utterly screwed. Robb can't take the castle and he'd have to march down to the Ruby Ford and north up the KR to get back to MC. That leaves him in between Tarly's men at Maidenpool, the mountain's men, and the Lannister/Tyrell army in KL.

 

On 8/12/2018 at 9:15 PM, Son of Man said:

 

Too risky for House Frey.  What if the unthinkable happened and Robb defeats the Lannisters.  The Tullys are not going to be so forgiving.  The Freys could lose a lot.  Including their lives.  

 

On 8/12/2018 at 9:22 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robb broke their pre-arranged marriage contract that bound them as allies. How can House Tully realistically punish their strongest bannermen for not adhering to a contract they broke? And to be clear, I mean the Freys don't actively oppose Robb just don't offer him passage or support. Basically every example we have of a house who does something similar shows them being leniently. Even if Robb wins, he lacks the means to take the Twins.

The Tullys have a history of destroying families who opposed them.  Ask House Goodbrooke.  And the Goodbrookes were the good guys in that fight, they stayed loyal to their king.  I can understand why Walder would think the Tullys would treat him badly if the Stark-Tully side won the war.  Damn, they don't even have to win the war.  If some peace was negotiated with the Lannister-Baratheon forces and the Tullys managed to remain the paramount of the Riverlands, that could turn out badly for the Freys.  Like it or not, the Red Wedding was the smart move.  It is easy to see why the Starks got what was coming to them.  I know this is easy for me to say because I don't like Robb and the Starks but maybe the readers out there who are not too loyal to the Starks can see it too.

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23 minutes ago, Buell Rider said:

.  Like it or not, the Red Wedding was the smart move. 

considering the fact that the Freys did all the dirty work for Tywin and did not even get the Lordship of the Riverlands out of it I would say that it was definitely not the smart move . The Freys are being killed in the Riverlands on a regular basis including Walder Freys heir  , they have an army in the North that will more than likely never make it back south and they have  almost the entire North and most of the Riverlands as their mortal enemies and even their allies can barely stand them, not to mention the Blackfish is still alive and with the Iron Born and Golden Company attacking the Iron Throne they will get no support from their allies if Blackfish and Edmure can eally the Riverlands  . All of this for some petty revenge and control of Riverrun which will more then likely be nothing more then a trap for them .

Jaime lifted his own cup left-handed and took a swallow. The warmth spread through his chest. "You were speaking of the Freys you wanted dead. Ryman, Edwyn, Emmon . . ."

Be nice if he culled some Freys too. Ryman, for a start. The man's drunk more oft than not. Oh, and Edwyn. Not as thick as his father, but as full of hate as a boil's full of pus. And our own Ser Emmon . . . no, Lord Emmon, Seven save us, must not forget his new title . . . our Lord of Riverrun does nought but try to tell me how to run the siege. He wants me to take the castle without damaging it, since it is now his lordly seat."

"He understands that well enough," said Lord Piper. He was a short, rotund, bowlegged man with a bush of wild red hair, the father of one of Jaime's squires; the resemblance to the boy was unmistakeable. "The man's not bloody stupid, Norbert. He has eyes . . . and too much sense to yield to such as these." He made a rude gesture in the direction of Edwyn Frey and Walder Rivers.

Jaime gave him a cold look. "The Twins took up the Young Wolf's cause as well," he reminded the Freys. "Then you betrayed him. That makes you twice as treacherous as Piper."

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12 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Not really. It was a classic "short-term gain, long-term disaster" move.

 

Really, it is a smart move.  The detestable Tullys are destroyed, the Starks nearly destroyed.  One of the Freys got Riverun.  That was better than the deal they got from Robb, which is really not reliable as Robb is very changeable.  

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20 minutes ago, Buell Rider said:

Really, it is a smart move.  The detestable Tullys are destroyed,

The Blackfish is still at large in the Riverlands where he has far more sympathy than Freys ever will, and Edmure is safely out of reach enjoying Lannister hospitality. Walder finally got his 'Tully marriage' but had to totally devalue it to get it as they're no longer the Paramount House.

20 minutes ago, Buell Rider said:

the Starks nearly destroyed. 

There are four at large, all developing skills that should be giving Walder's brood nightmares, and much of the North remains loyal, even though they've had Bolton foisted on them for now.

20 minutes ago, Buell Rider said:

One of the Freys got Riverun. 

No, one of the Lannisters got Riverrun. We've had bit of a peek inside that marriage, and the way it's written, do you really imagine her Frey husband is worth a fart?

20 minutes ago, Buell Rider said:

That was better than the deal they got from Robb, which is really not reliable as Robb is very changeable. 

Even with Genna calling the shots, Riverrun is going to be a bitch to hold. Genna wanted Darry instead, iirc, and very wise too. But Emmon had to stick his neck into the noose.... Everything Frey got came from the Lannisters, and they despise the Freys at least as much as the Starks ever did.

No, RW really wasn't smart. In time it will hurt House Frey far more than House Stark.

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On 8/9/2018 at 2:37 AM, Frey Kings said:

First and foremost, I guarantee you if the ASOIAF didn't start out with the Starks, the average fan wouldn't loathe the Freys as much.

 

Freys started out from the bottom and become one of the top 10 richest houses. And Yet, no other 'historical' house have showed them any respect. They followed Aegon against the Hoares and then pledged to the Tullys as their liege lord. But yet, The Tullys always looked down upon them.  Regarding the rebellion, maybe half of the Riverlords sided with Rhaegar? It was smart for them to stay neutral instead of running off to die because some guy was butt hurt for losing his woman to another man. When Robb came down and promised to marry one of the Freys, House Frey was committed and gave him one of the strongest armies and their fighters were fierce. Lots of Freys died for Robb's cause even though one of them was married directly into the Lannisters. The Freys were dedicated to the end until Robb came back from the Craig married to another woman. Then the Lannisters started breathing down their neck and then the RW happened. 

 

Its a very grey house. There are much worse characters in the lore both past & present. That can inflict more harm than the Freys ever could. 

 

 

So please, unless you're holier than thou. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

 

Don't hate the player, hate the game.  Walder Frey and Roose Bolton played their cards well.  Robb handed them shitty cards, and screwed the Freys.  Walder made the best of the situation and got out of the sinking Stark ship.  

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18 hours ago, Buell Rider said:

Really, it is a smart move.  The detestable Tullys are destroyed, the Starks nearly destroyed.  One of the Freys got Riverun.  That was better than the deal they got from Robb, which is really not reliable as Robb is very changeable.  

In all seriousness, do you think the Freys won't end up losing in the long-term, and do you not expect there to be some poetic justice, where the RW will the ultimate root of their downfall? 

Edited by Shouldve Taken The Black

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On 8/15/2018 at 7:45 AM, the trees have eyes said:

It's to be expected, it was a monstrous crime.  The whole point of this being such an infamous crime is that it breaks a sacred taboo and is a devastating betrayal: most families would not do this, it's why it's so unexpected.

I have to disagree with you on this point.  Robb and the Tullys put Walder Frey in a very difficult position.  I cannot blame Lord Walder, given how much disrespect he received from Robb Stark.  Staying with the Starks, who had a good chance of losing due to Robb and Cat messing up, will not gain the Freys anything.  On the contrary, being the richest of Robb's supporters, they might end up paying most of the punitive damages.  And how fair is that.  Not fair by any measure.   Any family that Robb Stark treated the way he treated the Freys would have done the red wedding.  

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1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Any family that Robb Stark treated the way he treated the Freys would have done the red wedding.  

No, they wouldn't; that's why other characters are shocked by the event rather than clapping old Walder on the back and congratulating him. Westerosi history is littered with Houses turning their cloaks over perceived slights, without plumbing such depths as the Red Wedding

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6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Westerosi history is littered with Houses turning their cloaks over perceived slights, without plumbing such depths as the Red Wedding

Maybe i am wrong, but Elaria Sand's father House(can't remember its name) had  broke guest right multiple times.

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On 8/15/2018 at 3:29 PM, Rufus Snow said:

We're not applying our own sense of morality here, but Westerosi - clearly if the gods punished the Rat Cook for guest right abuse and not for Prince Pie, then what other conclusion can we reach? It's there in the text. I only read it; I didn't write it...

Except it is not clear if that is anything more than an old wives tale. Are we really jumping to conclusions on

  • the existence of the Old Gods
  • and if they care about the lives of mortals

on one fable?  Westeros is no fairy tale, we have seen quite enough of its history to see that the 'gods' don't favor the good over the bad, the pious over the wicked. 

 

On 8/15/2018 at 6:33 PM, MostlyMoody said:

And you are right, but just because one is a demonstrably worse action doesn't mean the other action is good.

 

yeah, I'm failing to see where I called it good, awful things happen in war, especially during civil wars between factions who were already at odds.

 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:22 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

True but we never really hear about that to we? We hear about dishonor

we kind of do when Robb is at the Twins, first before the wedding 

What would Your Grace do if Petyr had broken his neck, heh? Give me another apology in place of a grandson? No, no, no. Might be you're king, I won't say you're not, the King in the North, heh, but under my roof, my rule. Have your wolf or have your wedding, sire. You'll not have both."

then during it

"Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

and then the final chapter points out just how much Walder values his brood

His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood. But Stevron had died whilst campaigning with the Young Wolf in the west
 
it is also hinted that the safety of his grandsons with Roose may be another factor
 
 Bolton had made a toast to Lord Walder's grandsons when the wedding feast began, pointedly mentioning that Walder and Walder were in the care of his bastard son. From the way the old man had squinted at him, his mouth sucking at the air, Catelyn knew he had heard the unspoken threat.

but obviously there was more than one motive for the Frey's taking part in the Red Wedding. 

 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:32 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

The Freys gambled their long term health for short term gains.

The Starks have gone from medieval noble house to burgeoning super hero team, Walder could not have actually predicted that, he is likely not aware that he is in a fantasy novel. 

 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Sure, there have always been a few. 

no, there have always been a lot. I have been visiting these forums for almost a decade, from before the release of ADWD, I am perfectly aware of the content of the forum.

Perhaps you just didn't notice it, but conversations about Tywin and the Freys and their motivations have been a constant on this site, it is not a recent development. 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

 

And it's important to understand motivations.  Not that equals endorsing actions I hope you understand. 

It is a medieval world, I'd hope none of the actions by antagonist or protagonist are being endorsed.

Ned brings his 7 year old son to watch him chop a man's head off, no one claims supporting Ned endorses such acts yet come into any conversation on the 'antagonists' and there are frequently people assuming that is true of the people talking about Slynt/Walder/Tywin/etc. 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

 

Now it seems genuine informative discussion is rare and we are left with justifying or endorsing the Red Wedding or weaseling around the margins as to whether mass murder and betrayal is ok because you had your fingers crossed when you agreed to restoring an alliance.

Wyman did the same when he got his son released and is, rightly, celebrated for it. It was a pretty kick ass ploy. 

Now some will laud Wyman for his betrayal but then be outraged by the Freys doing the same. 

 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

It's beyond pathetic that you think betraying and slaughtering a few thousand men at a wedding celebration is a legitimate tactic. 

lol it is beyond pathetic that you are trying to create anger over fictional characters in a fictional universe all to try and win an argument.

They were armed soldiers at war, no one forced them to get drunk just like no one forced Stafford's green boys to sleep without any defenses. It is a fictional war, your mock outrage is not needed.

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

 

It's a vile argument that the men "fucked themselves up" rather than being trapped and murdered.  If you make the argument expect to have it called for what it is.

lol come on, try to be less sensitive. No one was hurt in the making of the book. 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

No one else was making the argument you were so that's on you

please clarify what argument you think I was making. 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

That is the Freys attempted "out".  Do you really buy it?  They erect the feat tents and provide all the food

We have gone over this 4 times now, they did not provide any food.

 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

 

Don't be dumb. 

please stop getting over emotional

On 8/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, the trees have eyes said:

 

The Starks and Lannisters are at war, there is no betrayal.  The Freys and Northmen are comrades in arms who fought together until Robb broke a marriage pact that is to be restored by Edmure's marriage to Walder's daughter. 

Robb is more than clear that he does not trust the Freys, that his army will protect him. 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/16/2018 at 7:21 AM, the trees have eyes said:

The logic above is fair but incomplete.  The prestige of House Frey has never been lower, nor it's enemies so many and implacable.  It's a gamble that relies on the Lannisters holding on to power and although we shouldn't use hindsight I think the Freys will come to regret that they did not simply raise the drawbridge and hold Robb and all his Lords prisoner.

I think his progeny will end up blaming him for all their problems and rightly so.

I sure hope the story doesn't take this turn.  I do not think it will.  

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35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except it is not clear if that is anything more than an old wives tale. Are we really jumping to conclusions on

  • the existence of the Old Gods
  • and if they care about the lives of mortals

on one fable?  Westeros is no fairy tale, we have seen quite enough of its history to see that the 'gods' don't favor the good over the bad, the pious over the wicked. 

 

yeah, I'm failing to see where I called it good, awful things happen in war, especially during civil wars between factions who were already at odds.

 

we kind of do when Robb is at the Twins, first before the wedding 

What would Your Grace do if Petyr had broken his neck, heh? Give me another apology in place of a grandson? No, no, no. Might be you're king, I won't say you're not, the King in the North, heh, but under my roof, my rule. Have your wolf or have your wedding, sire. You'll not have both."

then during it

"Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

and then the final chapter points out just how much Walder values his brood

His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood. But Stevron had died whilst campaigning with the Young Wolf in the west
 
it is also hinted that the safety of his grandsons with Roose may be another factor
 
 Bolton had made a toast to Lord Walder's grandsons when the wedding feast began, pointedly mentioning that Walder and Walder were in the care of his bastard son. From the way the old man had squinted at him, his mouth sucking at the air, Catelyn knew he had heard the unspoken threat.

but obviously there was more than one motive for the Frey's taking part in the Red Wedding. 

 

The Starks have gone from medieval noble house to burgeoning super hero team, Walder could not have actually predicted that, he is likely not aware that he is in a fantasy novel. 

 

no, there have always been a lot. I have been visiting these forums for almost a decade, from before the release of ADWD, I am perfectly aware of the content of the forum.

Perhaps you just didn't notice it, but conversations about Tywin and the Freys and their motivations have been a constant on this site, it is not a recent development. 

It is a medieval world, I'd hope none of the actions by antagonist or protagonist are being endorsed.

Ned brings his 7 year old son to watch him chop a man's head off, no one claims supporting Ned endorses such acts yet come into any conversation on the 'antagonists' and there are frequently people assuming that is true of the people talking about Slynt/Walder/Tywin/etc. 

Wyman did the same when he got his son released and is, rightly, celebrated for it. It was a pretty kick ass ploy. 

Now some will laud Wyman for his betrayal but then be outraged by the Freys doing the same. 

 

lol it is beyond pathetic that you are trying to create anger over fictional characters in a fictional universe all to try and win an argument.

They were armed soldiers at war, no one forced them to get drunk just like no one forced Stafford's green boys to sleep without any defenses. It is a fictional war, your mock outrage is not needed.

lol come on, try to be less sensitive. No one was hurt in the making of the book. 

please clarify what argument you think I was making. 

We have gone over this 4 times now, they did not 

Sorry for not quoting the appropriate sections. I am on a mobile device.

clearly family had its place in his vengeance but his sarcasm through most of that exchange doesn’t exactly bolster the point. Gonna have to stick with GRRM and his ssm here.

as the to starks being super hero family, yeah point taken. That said he definitely needed to take heed of his guests’ families. He kills Tullys, pipers, Vances, Blackwoods and Brackens, captures a Mallister and threatens to hang him, in addition to all the north men. His niece takes over a prize with no lord to defend her and Emmon will always have to contend with Edmure or his child.

He couldn’t foresee Tywins death or Cersei’s sheer incompetence (he would have some knowledge based on agot and acok Cersei tho), but man there’s a lot to make a man wonder unless he’s old and real peevish

 

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8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I have to disagree with you on this point.  Robb and the Tullys put Walder Frey in a very difficult position.  I cannot blame Lord Walder, given how much disrespect he received from Robb Stark.  Staying with the Starks, who had a good chance of losing due to Robb and Cat messing up, will not gain the Freys anything.  On the contrary, being the richest of Robb's supporters, they might end up paying most of the punitive damages.  And how fair is that.  Not fair by any measure.   Any family that Robb Stark treated the way he treated the Freys would have done the red wedding.  

He would have lost almost nothing if he promised to bottle up Robb and prevent him from crossing. If he actively harried him up the kingsroad he prolly still would have gotten Darry. We see how Tywin treats people who bend the knee. Manderly and the blackwoods didn’t lose much and the Brackens added 25% to their domain 

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The Freys never asked to be a part of this. Ned gets his head chopped off, Cat takes the imp captive, Rhaegar runs off with Robert's woman.

 

And yet the Freys should sacrifice everything to people that absolutely loathes them.

 

 

PATHETIC.

 

Sure The Irone Throne / Lannisters would take a while before ever getting to Winterfell but they have no problems reaching the Twins.

 

The Pride and Ego of these Houses have shedded many innocent bystanders' blood. But its okay because someone ran off with someone's woman or some lord they never encountered got his chopped off. 

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2 hours ago, honorable men said:

The Freys never asked to be a part of this. Ned gets his head chopped off, Cat takes the imp captive, Rhaegar runs off with Robert's woman.

 

And yet the Freys should sacrifice everything to people that absolutely loathes them.

 

 

PATHETIC.

 

Sure The Irone Throne / Lannisters would take a while before ever getting to Winterfell but they have no problems reaching the Twins.

 

The Pride and Ego of these Houses have shedded many innocent bystanders' blood. But its okay because someone ran off with someone's woman or some lord they never encountered got his chopped off. 

The Freys weren't dragged into the war against their will. Walder entered into blatant and open negotiations to cut a deal. He was in it for what he could get. Not an innocent bystander by any means, an active and aggressive player.

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8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The Freys weren't dragged into the war against their will. Walder entered into blatant and open negotiations to cut a deal. He was in it for what he could get. Not an innocent bystander by any means, an active and aggressive player.

tell me what the war accomplished

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12 hours ago, honorable men said:

tell me what the war accomplished

That's a completely different issue.

My point was that the Freys weren't innocent bystanders, they were active participants with an agenda of their own.

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