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Frey Kings

If People still hate the Freys, they need to reconsider their life priorities

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On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 4:51 PM, Tucu said:

Who can hate the Freys? Winter is coming and they are delicious in combination with a glass of dornish red.

Let them eat pies! LOL!

Edited by fire&blood

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2 minutes ago, fire&blood said:

Let them eat pies! LOL!

"It's a wonderful day for pie"

 

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On 8/17/2018 at 9:58 AM, Blackfish Tully said:

The Manderly's sure as hell don't think the war was over . As for the reconciliation it pretty much consisted of "bend the knee or we will murder your other son and attack your lands "  not much of a reconciliation . The Freys murdered Lord Manderly's son and thousands of other Northmen and then had the stones to come North , what did they think would happen to them? Lord Manderly followed guests rights to the letter and once the Freys were out of his city and he no longer was bound by guest rights he attacked and killed them because they were his enemies and he was still at war . Just because the Lannisters and Freys declared the war over with doesn't make it true .  

 

The war is over because the Manderlys agreed to pay war damages and his lord was defeated.  The Freys returned the bones of his fallen son.  Manderly violated the taboo against cannibalism.  He ate human flesh.  He fed human flesh to his host, Roose Bolton.  

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1 hour ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

The war is over because the Manderlys agreed to pay war damages and his lord was defeated.  

Manderly was just buying time to gather his forces , he never stopped fighting the war and his Lord has heirs and the Manderly's owe a debt to the Starks that can never be repaid . 

know about the promise ... Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!

 

1 hour ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

The Freys returned the bones of his fallen son.  

Isn't that nice of them to return the bones of his fallen son that they murdered while they were allies and supposed friends .  

 

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2 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

The war is over because the Manderlys agreed to pay war damages and his lord was defeated.  The Freys returned the bones of his fallen son.

The Manderlys were extorted as the Lannisters held Wylis as a hostage. It was hardly a peace agreement so much as blackmail. Plus, the Freys, who murdered his son, walked into his House and blatantly lied to his face about the manner of his death, bought up his servants to spy on him, and princed about like they owned the place..

Face it, they were begging to be minced.

Edited by Shouldve Taken The Black

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7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The Manderlys were extorted as the Lannisters held Wylis as a hostage.

They agreed to an alliance, no one forced them. Like Walder, Wyman did not care about acting in good faith nor was he going to warn the Frey's before he attacked them. 

 

7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

It was hardly a peace agreement so much as blackmail. 

lol this is hilarious, the North is allowed to fuck over an agreement but you are outraged when others do it to them

7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Face it, they were begging to be minced.

the same could be said for Robb at the Twins.

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They agreed to an alliance, no one forced them. Like Walder, Wyman did not care about acting in good faith nor was he going to warn the Frey's before he attacked them. 

He gave them departing guest gifts.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol this is hilarious, the North is allowed to fuck over an agreement but you are outraged when others do it to them

It's not very honorable of Manderly for sure. Because it's revenge for something similar, it's more palatable to the readers. Agreed it's not moral, however.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

the same could be said for Robb at the Twins.

It could be, but the RW is entirely unprecedented in Westeros, as far as we can tell. The in-world reaction to it is certainly telling.

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48 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

unprecedented

Maybe i'm wrong, but didn't similar thing happened at Hellholt?

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

So what do you think is the appropriate punishment for Robb Stark?  He betrayed an ally who lost his son in his war.  

I would force Arya to marry Elmar, if that is what the Freys want.  Assuming Robb already married Jeyne and consummated, and we know it is impossible to divorce, force Edmure to marry Roslyn.  Give a large chunk of the marshlands that border Frey lands to the Freys.  The Reeds will hate it but the Freys deserve compensation for Robb's disrespect and oath breaking.  Should the rebellion win and earn their independence, Harrenhal goes to the Freys.   

I know there is a trust problem when making a deal with Robb.  Get the payment ahead of time as much as possible.  

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54 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Maybe i'm wrong, but didn't similar thing happened at Hellholt?

You would be correct. I noticed it's in the app, not the book. good catch 

 

11 minutes ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

So what do you think is the appropriate punishment for Robb Stark?  He betrayed an ally who lost his son in his war.  

I would force Arya to marry Elmar, if that is what the Freys want.  Assuming Robb already married Jeyne and consummated, and we know it is impossible to divorce, force Edmure to marry Roslyn.  Give a large chunk of the marshlands that border Frey lands to the Freys.  The Reeds will hate it but the Freys deserve compensation for Robb's disrespect and oath breaking.  Should the rebellion win and earn their independence, Harrenhal goes to the Freys.   

I know there is a trust problem when making a deal with Robb.  Get the payment ahead of time as much as possible.  

Honestly I wouldn't have made a deal with Robb. I would have stayed neutral or bent the knee to the Lannisters and waged war against him. Making so many enemies in immediate proximity was a particularly foolish thing to do, favor and protection of the throne or not.

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35 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Honestly I wouldn't have made a deal with Robb. I would have stayed neutral or bent the knee to the Lannisters and waged war against him.

I'd do the same, I imagine most of us reading this would have made the pragmatic choice, just like in Robb's shoes most of us would have been pragmatic rather than seek vengeance. But clearly these people are not raised like that,  Walder had lost 1,500 men including his heir and a few grandsons, he wanted his revenge. 

Quote

 

Making so many enemies in immediate proximity was a particularly foolish thing to do, favor and protection of the throne or not.

Not that many, it often gets overblown how many Riverlanders were actually there. 

Thirty-five hundred they were, thirty-five hundred who had been blooded in the Whispering Wood, who had reddened their swords at the Battle of the Camps, at Oxcross, Ashemark, and the Crag, and all through the gold-rich hills of the Lannister west. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands

 

The Twins could boast the Darry, Riverrun, Vypren, Charlton lands as allies, perhaps the Goodbrooks and Hawick. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'd do the same, I imagine most of us reading this would have made the pragmatic choice, just like in Robb's shoes most of us would have been pragmatic rather than seek vengeance. But clearly these people are not raised like that,  Walder had lost 1,500 men including his heir and a few grandsons, he wanted his revenge. 

He wanted his honor more than anything

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not that many, it often gets overblown how many Riverlanders were actually there. 

Thirty-five hundred they were, thirty-five hundred who had been blooded in the Whispering Wood, who had reddened their swords at the Battle of the Camps, at Oxcross, Ashemark, and the Crag, and all through the gold-rich hills of the Lannister west. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands

The Twins could boast the Darry, Riverrun, Vypren, Charlton lands as allies, perhaps the Goodbrooks and Hawick. 

  • Vances
  • Pipers
  • Tullys
  • Brackens
  • Blackwoods 
  • Mallisters

You're right that there were not many Riverlanders there, but there were quite a few people there from important houses. Whether or not they had relatives who died or were captured, it's not something they'll be like to forget.

The Darrys are a shadow of their former power and lack a lord. Riverrun has an awful lord and Tullys are alive. Charlton is sworn to Frey and not on the same level. The ones listed are primary bannermen of the Tullys (or Tullys). Even with allies at hand, pissing off so many families just isn't a good idea.

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12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They agreed to an alliance, no one forced them.

That's a strange interpretation of events. The Lannisters held his heir hostage until he capitulated. That's pretty much the definition of "forcing them".

 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol this is hilarious, the North is allowed to fuck over an agreement but you are outraged when others do it to them

Try to contain yourself. One was an agreement between a king and his bannermen, negotiated in good faith. The other is a forced surrender. It would be a touch disingenuous to pretend you can't comprehend the difference.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

the same could be said for Robb at the Twins.

Apparently it can be said, but not by serious people.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not that many, it often gets overblown how many Riverlanders were actually there. 

Mayhaps. But the attitude of the River Lords towards the Freys is shown in Jaime's war council at Riverrun. They haven't exactly made friends.

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On 8/21/2018 at 1:54 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Except it is not clear if that is anything more than an old wives tale. Are we really jumping to conclusions on

  • the existence of the Old Gods
  • and if they care about the lives of mortals

on one fable?  Westeros is no fairy tale, we have seen quite enough of its history to see that the 'gods' don't favor the good over the bad, the pious over the wicked. 

If you'd noted my previous posts you'd see that I'm not arguing that the story of the Rat Cook is 'true', only that it is important in the North as it is part of their oral transmission of significant cultural values. And the particular value that it imparts regards the primacy of guest right over other values, being held more dear than everything other than kinslaying.

And the reason that cultural values have to be transmitted is precisely because divine intervention doesn't happen; it's people who have to be persuaded to behave in accordance with social norms, and as with our own society, that process begins with tales told to children before they are amplified later in life by more formal means.

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On 8/24/2018 at 9:39 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's a strange interpretation of events.

No, it is the correct one. Lannisters had a Manderly hostage from the beginning of the war, Wyman is happy enough to let Bran know that he has refused them when he is trying to get funds to build a navy. 

 

Quote

 

The Lannisters held his heir hostage until he capitulated. That's pretty much the definition of "forcing them".

No, he held that prisoner since AGOT, Wyman later agreed to a deal in bad faith. Like the Freys. no one forced him to make that deal, but it was a deal that would bring him a chance to get vengeance.

Quote

 

Try to contain yourself.

I'll try to, but the constant double standards from you is getting a little funny. One rule for characters you like (Jaime/Wyman) and another for characters you don't like, and instead of being honest about it you have to jump through hoops explaining why cannibalism is morally ok or Jaime breaking guest rights is ok because he momentarily feels bad about it. 

There are genuine people on the board who see the characters as grey, can justify the actions of the Freys, Wyman and Jaime while not necessarily agreeing with their actions, then there are those who are pretty clear that wrong is wrong regardless of whether they like the character or not and then there is you.

Quote

 

One was an agreement between a king and his bannermen, negotiated in good faith.

No, that was both of them.

Quote

 

The other is a forced surrender. It would be a touch disingenuous to pretend you can't comprehend the difference.

It was not a forced surrender, he made a deal to prevent a war between himself and the Boltons. 

Quote

Apparently it can be said, but not by serious people.

Sure it can.  I'm serious and I'm saying it. 

Quote

Mayhaps. But the attitude of the River Lords towards the Freys is shown in Jaime's war council at Riverrun. They haven't exactly made friends.

Some, not all. 

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27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it is the correct one. Lannisters had a Manderly hostage from the beginning of the war, Wyman is happy enough to let Bran know that he has refused them when he is trying to get funds to build a navy. 

:dunno: but could you expound on that a bit.

Manderly disputes the claim that Stark killed Wendel.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV      "The Boltons have always been as cruel as they were cunning, but this one seems a beast in human skin," said Glover.     The Lord of White Harbor leaned forward. "The Freys are no better. They speak of wargs and skinchangers and assert that it was Robb Stark who slew my Wendel. The arrogance of it! They do not expect the north to believe their lies, not truly, but they think we must pretend to believe or die. Roose Bolton lies about his part in the Red Wedding, and his bastard lies about the fall of Winterfell.     And yet so long as they held Wylis I had no choice but to eat all this excrement and praise the taste." /

Perhaps, since there are five books with thousands of pages might you share with me how Lannister came to be in possession of Wylis.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV     "I will treat with you, my lord. My king commanded that of me. I do not have to drink with you."    Lord Wyman sighed. "I have treated you most shamefully, I know. I had my reasons, but … please, sit and drink, I beg you. Drink to my boy's safe return. Wylis, my eldest son and heir. He is home. That is the welcoming feast you hear. In the Merman's Court they are eating lamprey pie and venison with roasted chestnuts. Wynafryd is dancing with the Frey she is to marry. The other Freys are raising cups of wine to toast our friendship."/

 

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43 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

:dunno: but could you expound on that a bit.

Sure, after the battle of Green Fork Wyman's son was taken prisoner. 

His lordship waited until the table had been cleared before he raised the matter of a letter he had received from Lord Tywin Lannister, who held his elder son, Ser Wylis, taken captive on the Green Fork. "He offers him back to me without ransom, provided I withdraw my levies from His Grace and vow to fight no more."

"You will refuse him, of course," said Ser Rodrik.

 "Have no fear on that count," the lord assured them.

 

 

 

 

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On 8/23/2018 at 6:41 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

The war is over because the Manderlys agreed to pay war damages and his lord was defeated.  The Freys returned the bones of his fallen son.  Manderly violated the taboo against cannibalism.  He ate human flesh.  He fed human flesh to his host, Roose Bolton.  

Wayman Manderly and those people seeking revenge for losing a war that they took part in are the reasons why it will be difficult to unite Westeros again.  

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