Whats the point of BwB storyline now?

[Son of Man]

1 minute ago, EloImFizzy said:

I'm not judging, its funny to me whenever either side speak of it as if its fact. =)

It's not fact until confirmed.  Most of us fans have a pet theory based on which we think has a higher likelihood.  

[dmfn]

If Stoneheart's story doesn't include Robb's will naming Jon heir to Winterfell then I don't know...

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

That's fine if you believe that. I personally think they have split up though. It also isn't just a case of a gap in the appendix, its written like this:

 

- Beric 

---------- Edric

---------- Anguy

---------- Etc. 

 

- Lady Stoneheart 

---------- Thoros 

---------- Etc. 

 

If it was just a mistake then I believe Edric and Anguy would still be written under Lady Stoneheart. To me it looks like GRRM went out of his way to split up the two groups. 

Its weird. I agree. Makes me think.

4 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Don't get me wrong, I do find her story interesting, but she isn't someone I would want to be in a group with. From Brienne's last chapter in AFfC it is safe to assume that Stoneheart is not just killing people who where involved in the Red Wedding, but people who have any connection to these Houses at all, that includes innocent people. She was going to kill Brienne because of her connection to Jaime, Podrick because he was Tyrion's squire, and Hyle Hunt because he works for House Tarly, who in turn works for House Tyrell, who are in an alliance with House Lannister.

The Brotherhood under Beric were also hanging Lannister soldiers. Podrick and Hyle Hunt are the enemy. Brienne was suspect. Speaking out loud in her  dream about Jaime, walkimg around with half an Ice and Tommens decree. Plus it seems like a charade to capture Jaime. Classic outlaw. They still take care of orphans, only difference now is theyre looking for Arya.

I wouldnt like to work for Stoneheart, but I probably would.

 

And after them came her handmaids, and then the others, all the Dothraki, men and women and children, and Dany had only to look at their eyes to know that they were hers now, today and tomorrow and forever, hers as they had never been Drogo's.

 

Cat was very well known and respected in the Riverlands and the story of the RW would anger anyone whos already in the Lannister killing business. So watching your Lady come back to life who seeks to punish whom the gods deem cursed shouldnt be a problem for them. Mix that with saving Arya, half the NW and the wildlings wanted to save her too, and they don't even know the little squirrel

3 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Agreed. With the state she's in now I wouldn't be surprised if Lady Stoneheart tried to hang Edric just for potentially being related to Jon Snow. 

I dont see that at all. Cat was never the picturesque stepmom but she never harbored thoughts on killing him, definitely not in cold blood.

To kill his cousin with no proof that it is his cousin (its not) is totally out of character for Catelyn.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont see that at all. Cat was never the picturesque stepmom but she never harbored thoughts on killing him, definitely not in cold blood.

To kill his cousin with no proof that it is his cousin (its not) is totally out of character for Catelyn.

That's the point though, Lady Stoneheart isn't Catelyn. 

Catelyn Stark wouldn't hang Podrick, a boy the same age as Sansa, for simply being a past squire for Tyrion. Hyle Hunt isn't even that, he is a man who works for a man who has a connection to the Lannisters. There are hundreds of thousands of men who in her mind have committed the same 'crime' of simply being on the wrong side. If she can justify killing Hyle Hunt then she should have no problem condemning the River Lords who knelt to the Lannisters either. 

There is a reason she is called Stoneheart, she has a heart of stone with no room for compassion anymore. 

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

That's the point though, Lady Stoneheart isn't Catelyn. 

Catelyn Stark wouldn't hang Podrick, a boy the same age as Sansa, for simply being a past squire for Tyrion. Hyle Hunt isn't even that, he is a man who works for a man who has a connection to the Lannisters. There are hundreds of thousands of men who in her mind have committed the same 'crime' of simply being on the wrong side. If she can justify killing Hyle Hunt then she should have no problem condemning the River Lords who knelt to the Lannisters either. 

There is a reason she is called Stoneheart, she has a heart of stone with no room for compassion anymore. 

Of course shes still Cat. Beric remained Beric, all 6 times. And when Jon opens his eyes he'll still be Jon. 

Hunt is a knight for the Reach, hes searching for Sansa with the intent of ill will to her. Hyle has every reason to get hanged by outlaws.

Pod is the Imps squire. Him, nor Tyrion had a hand in the RW, but that doesnt excuse letting him walk away unscathed. Besides the plan wasnt to kill Pod, it was to make Brienne scream a word.

Shes called Stoneheart by her enemies, its a more believable word then Catelyn Stark. She still has compassion, as shes searching for her daughter

[chrisdaw]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course shes still Cat. Beric remained Beric, all 6 times. And when Jon opens his eyes he'll still be Jon. 

Hunt is a knight for the Reach, hes searching for Sansa with the intent of ill will to her. Hyle has every reason to get hanged by outlaws.

Pod is the Imps squire. Him, nor Tyrion had a hand in the RW, but that doesnt excuse letting him walk away unscathed. Besides the plan wasnt to kill Pod, it was to make Brienne scream a word.

Shes called Stoneheart by her enemies, its a more believable word then Catelyn Stark. She still has compassion, as shes searching for her daughter

GRRM made it so that she looks like the grim reaper. He implanted moral compass Thoros there to lament on screen what is happening. He has gotten Edric out of there so as to not be tainted. He named her Stoneheart.

What is happening isn't subtle.

[Hugorfonics]

17 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

GRRM made it so that she looks like the grim reaper. He implanted moral compass Thoros there to lament on screen what is happening. He has gotten Edric out of there so as to not be tainted. He named her Stoneheart.

What is happening isn't subtle.

And what does Tyrion or Brienne look like? Bad guys?

Thoros laments that back in the Beroc days they called themselves heroes while now they follow a corpse whos drabbed in grey, very melancholy. In truth they were never heroes, just killers amd thieves

Edric searching for Arya would not "taint" him

[Rufus Snow]

To some degree I think there's an analogy to 'real world' groups, whatever you want to call them: freedom fighters, paramilitaries, rebels, guerillas yadda yadda. They often start off with high ideals, and wind up doing little more than running drugs, kidnapping for ransoms, and acts of random brutality. Throw in some extreme religious beliefs and things can get very dark very fast. BwB have been through their high ideals and Robin Hood phase, but they are now losing their way and fragmenting (People's Popular Front of Judea, or the Judean People's Popular Front, or the Popular Front of the Judean People..... ah, you either get the reference or you don't, I guess... )

[Morte]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course shes still Cat. Beric remained Beric, all 6 times. And when Jon opens his eyes he'll still be Jon. 

But Beric is not Beric, not even the first time he wakes up. He is a wight, as is Cat. But a fire-wight, not an ice-wight. He and also Cat are driven by the last thing they had on their mind that was important to them, by their last purpose one could say.

For Beric it was "help the people and bring the kings justice", so he became a more or less friendly wight with this one purpose. That he was a lot more like the original Beric derived (compared to Cat/Stoneheart) from being resurrected just after death, so he still had a lot of his other memories, but with each death this memories were fading more and more, as he himself is telling us.

The only thing Cat felt then she died was pain and vengeance, then her corpse was lying in the river for several days, before the BwB found her. We even know that Thoros thought it unwise to resurrect her because of the time passed...

So, no: Stoneheart may still have _some_ - however twisted - memories of Cat left**, but she is even less Cat from the beginning, than Beric wasn't Beric in the end. And, most importantly, she is not driven by a "nobel" cause, like Beric, but by vengeance alone.*

So the point of this storyline now is imho to show us the corruption of a noble cause and the futility of vengeance, to the point then you cannot longer distinguish the good guys from the bad, because in the end (there we are now with the BwB) not even the "justifying cause" is left, it's just slaughter by another party.

 

Sidenotes:

* That's why I think we all should hope for Jon to simply survive his injuries or die, because if he will come back, he will be an one-trick-pony like the other fire-wights. If the fans are lucky with the purpose "Nightwatch-oath", if not with only the purpose "I want my sister back": Yes, I know a lot of people are hoping that warging into Ghost will keep Jon's soul intact, in contrast to Beric or Stoneheart, but wouldn't this be the same kind of cheating death GRRM did not like about Gandalf's death? However, I hope he is just wounded.

** I wouldn't even be surprised if Stoneheart would even be able to kill Sansa, would she get her hand on her, because Sansa was married to Tyrion.

[Angel Eyes]

13 minutes ago, Morte said:

But Beric is not Beric, not even the first time he wakes up. He is a wight, as is Cat. But a fire-wight, not an ice-wight. He and also Cat are driven by the last thing they had on their mind that was important to them, by their last purpose one could say.

For Beric it was "help the people and bring the kings justice", so he became a more or less friendly wight with this one purpose. That he was a lot more like the original Beric derived (compared to Cat/Stoneheart) from being resurrected just after death, so he still had a lot of his other memories, but with each death this memories were fading more and more, as he himself is telling us.

The only thing Cat felt then she died was pain and vengeance, then her corpse was lying in the river for several days, before the BwB found her. We even know that Thoros thought it unwise to resurrect her because of the time passed...

So, no: Stoneheart may still have _some_ - however twisted - memories of Cat left**, but she is even less Cat from the beginning, than Beric wasn't Beric in the end. And, most importantly, she is not driven by a "nobel" cause, like Beric, but by vengeance alone.*

So the point of this storyline now is imho to show us the corruption of a noble cause and the futility of vengeance, to the point then you cannot longer distinguish the good guys from the bad, because in the end (there we are now with the BwB) not even the "justifying cause" is left, it's just slaughter by another party.

 

Sidenotes:

* That's why I think we all should hope for Jon to simply survive his injuries or die, because if he will come back, he will be an one-trick-pony like the other fire-wights. If the fans are lucky with the purpose "Nightwatch-oath", if not with only the purpose "I want my sister back": Yes, I know a lot of people are hoping that warging into Ghost will keep Jon's soul intact, in contrast to Beric or Stoneheart, but wouldn't this be the same kind of cheating death GRRM did not like about Gandalf's death? However, I hope he is just wounded.

** I wouldn't even be surprised if Stoneheart would even be able to kill Sansa, would she get her hand on her, because Sansa was married to Tyrion.

The thing with Gandalf is that he’s not human, he’s a Maia, the equivalent of an angel.

[Morte]

17 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

The thing with Gandalf is that he’s not human, he’s a Maia, the equivalent of an angel.

Doesn't matter, this was about what GRRM thought about him coming back stronger:

Quote

And then in the next book, he shows up again, and it was six months between the American publications of those books, which seemed like a million years to me. So all that time I thought Gandalf was dead, and now he’s back and now he’s Gandalf the White. And, ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me. And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever.” That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character.

From here: http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

[dmfn]

@Hugorfonics

There aren't any enemies left alive to spread the nickname Stoneheart. She earned that handle all by herself. 

I agree with @Rufus Snow

I can imagine some sort of parallel imagery with Jaime. He was a monster in a cage with Cat. Now she's the monster.

[Hugorfonics]

44 minutes ago, Morte said:

But Beric is not Beric, not even the first time he wakes up. He is a wight, as is Cat. But a fire-wight, not an ice-wight. He and also Cat are driven by the last thing they had on their mind that was important to them, by their last purpose one could say.

I would say that too

47 minutes ago, Morte said:

For Beric it was "help the people and bring the kings justice", so he became a more or less friendly wight with this one purpose. That he was a lot more like the original Beric derived (compared to Cat/Stoneheart) from being resurrected just after death, so he still had a lot of his other memories, but with each death this memories were fading more and more, as he himself is telling us.

I dont know how friendly Beric was. He captured and robbed Sandor, assuming he was a criminal. He also captured and robbed Arya soley for profit. He worked with monsters like the Mad Huntsman. 

When Thoros brought Beric back to life, Beric became less and less human. Cat has only been resurrected once, so its safe to assume shes more human then Beric was after his second revival.

53 minutes ago, Morte said:

The only thing Cat felt then she died was pain and vengeance, then her corpse was lying in the river for several days, before the BwB found her. We even know that Thoros thought it unwise to resurrect her because of the time passed...

Thoros thought it impossible, not unwise.

54 minutes ago, Morte said:

So, no: Stoneheart may still have _some_ - however twisted - memories of Cat left**, but she is even less Cat from the beginning, than Beric wasn't Beric in the end. And, most importantly, she is not driven by a "nobel" cause, like Beric, but by vengeance alone.*

But shes not only looking for vengeance. Shes looking for Arya, and would be happy to finsld any of her siblings too. That may not be as noble as helping smallfolks but its more in the readers interest. Who doesnt love Arya?

56 minutes ago, Morte said:

So the point of this storyline now is imho to show us the corruption of a noble cause and the futility of vengeance, to the point then you cannot longer distinguish the good guys from the bad, because in the end (there we are now with the BwB) not even the "justifying cause" is left, it's just slaughter by another party.

Do you not think the Freys deserve to answer for their crimes? Not that shes a good guy, but the Brotherhood never really was, Cat or her son either. We rooted for them, but none of them were saints (contrast to Dunk and Davos)

58 minutes ago, Morte said:

* That's why I think we all should hope for Jon to simply survive his injuries or die, because if he will come back, he will be an one-trick-pony like the other fire-wights. If the fans are lucky with the purpose "Nightwatch-oath", if not with only the purpose "I want my sister back": Yes, I know a lot of people are hoping that warging into Ghost will keep Jon's soul intact, in contrast to Beric or Stoneheart, but wouldn't this be the same kind of cheating death GRRM did not like about Gandalf's death? However, I hope he is just wounded.

I hope Jon comes back different. That sounds cool.

58 minutes ago, Morte said:

** I wouldn't even be surprised if Stoneheart would even be able to kill Sansa, would she get her hand on her, because Sansa was married to Tyrion.

Absolutely ridiculous

19 minutes ago, dmfn said:

@Hugorfonics

There aren't any enemies left alive to spread the nickname Stoneheart. She earned that handle all by herself. 

Doesnt Jaime and Brienne hear that name on their travels?

[dmfn]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Doesnt Jaime and Brienne hear that name on their travels?

I don't specifically remember that, but I won't dispute it. I would venture to guess if gossip is being spread it's by the smallfolk who tend to aid the BwB, and not that they're doing the 'let one guy go to scare his friends' trick. 

I don't see Stoneheart using tricks. The people they kill aren't on trial, like Sandor was under Beric, they're already 'guilty' and awaiting execution. Letting one go as a warning to others would belittle the 'justice' Stoneheart is serving.

[Rufus Snow]

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

When Thoros brought Beric back to life, Beric became less and less human. Cat has only been resurrected once, so its safe to assume shes more human then Beric was after his second revival.

Well, that is an assumption, but I'm not sure how safe it is.

Thoros seems to have been bringing Beric back pretty quickly each time, but Cat lay dead and rotting for three days. I think Cat spent far more time dead than Beric has, so it could be argued that she could lose more humanity in between, we just don't know what's more important.

Also, Cat was resurrected with the last dregs of Beric's own 'life fire', rather than by Thoros, and we don't know what impact that might also have had on her.

[Morte]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont know how friendly Beric was. He captured and robbed Sandor, assuming he was a criminal. He also captured and robbed Arya soley for profit. He worked with monsters like the Mad Huntsman. 

I meant "friendly" in view of his purpose, of course you are right that the "Robin-Hodding" of the BwB did already started to change into robbery while Beric was still with them.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But shes not only looking for vengeance. Shes looking for Arya, and would be happy to finsld any of her siblings too.

 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Do you not think the Freys deserve to answer for their crimes?

She does - also - want to find her daughters, yes. But her primary actions are about vengeance: She is killing everyone she thinks involved with the RR or the Freys in general. Killing everybody you think associated with someone or something, even if they weren't, is not "answering for their crimes" and it's not justice, but bloody and stupid vengeance, which leads to nothing but death (for everybody involved). Putting more injustice on injustice someone did suffer doesn't make the injustice go away, it only makes it into even more injustice.

 

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not that shes a good guy, but the Brotherhood never really was, Cat or her son either. We rooted for them, but none of them were saints (contrast to Dunk and Davos)

D'accord.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I hope Jon comes back different. That sounds cool.

Well, I wouldn't mind if he comes back as one-trick-pony; like: the last and only Lord Commander the Nightwatch would ever have from this moment on; something like the opposite of the Night King. Would be cool, for me. The other outcome would be just another Lady Stoneheart, so I would find that quite boring.

[Morte]

5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, that is an assumption, but I'm not sure how safe it is.

Thoros seems to have been bringing Beric back pretty quickly each time, but Cat lay dead and rotting for three days. I think Cat spent far more time dead than Beric has, so it could be argued that she could lose more humanity in between, we just don't know what's more important.

Also, Cat was resurrected with the last dregs of Beric's own 'life fire', rather than by Thoros, and we don't know what impact that might also have had on her.

Good points.

We also do not know there the soul pulled (back) into the body is coming from (question would be: does GRRM know? ). If the person is only dead for a few hours most ancient (or nature) religions would argue that it not even left the body completely, but was at least lingering near it, or even still inside it. Such a soul would be in shock, but quite complete and still bound to it's body and the living world. So awakening again would be something like a really bad dream (at least the first time around), even if one knows he/she was dead.

Three days on the other hand are a long time, especially if the death was brutal; the soul would be harmed and hurt; either starting to turn (or turned) into a mischievous spirit or already on it's way to wherever the religion is thinking souls go. So it would be forcefully pulled from the - finally - peaceful place of Limbo/Waiting hall to rebirth/Nothing/Paradise or from even more horrible or at least frightening scenarios, as the way into a - however friendly and peaceful - underworld in many religions is not a walk in the park, but a way of trials. Both possibilities can be even more traumatic for the already hurt and tormented soul of a murder victim.

And we not even asked the question whether it is truly the original soul, that was put into the body, or just something that acts accordingly to the memories and purposes provided (this would be nearer to the ice-wight, but not a puppet, but an automaton with a specific program).

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, that is an assumption, but I'm not sure how safe it is.

Thoros seems to have been bringing Beric back pretty quickly each time, but Cat lay dead and rotting for three days. I think Cat spent far more time dead than Beric has, so it could be argued that she could lose more humanity in between, we just don't know what's more important.

Also, Cat was resurrected with the last dregs of Beric's own 'life fire', rather than by Thoros, and we don't know what impact that might also have had on her.

I think it's somewhat safe to assume that Cat's resurrection was "shadier" than Beric's (for lack of a better term.)  Hence Thoros refusing to even do it in the first place despite doing it 6 times for Beric.  I think the manner of death also plays a part here- we don't really get a sense of Beric's deaths being that traumatic/emotional (I say this solely in comparison to Cat's, because obviously death is death and it is always emotional/traumatic I would think).  Cat on the other hand basically went insane, scratching and clawing her own skin and murdering an innocent lackwit.  All this is in addition to the 3 days she spent dead, which I think was the stated reason for Thoros not wanting to bring her back.

I also think it's safe to assume that while there is some of Cat left in Stoneheart (she sets up a sort of orphanage at the Crossroads Inn and we know she is looking into Arya and Sansa's whereabouts, there is also a lot of a monster there (as Thoros basically says).  

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, dmfn said:

I don't specifically remember that, but I won't dispute it. I would venture to guess if gossip is being spread it's by the smallfolk who tend to aid the BwB, and not that they're doing the 'let one guy go to scare his friends' trick. 

I don't see Stoneheart using tricks. The people they kill aren't on trial, like Sandor was under Beric, they're already 'guilty' and awaiting execution. Letting one go as a warning to others would belittle the 'justice' Stoneheart is serving.

Stoneheart uses tricks. She threatened Frey unless he was ransomed, when he was they hanged his great uncle too. Then she convinces Brienne to scream a word and tell Jaime that she knows where Arya is. It seems Stoneheart uses lots of tricks.

And there was a trial. Cat was the witness.

3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, that is an assumption, but I'm not sure how safe it is.

Thoros seems to have been bringing Beric back pretty quickly each time, but Cat lay dead and rotting for three days. I think Cat spent far more time dead than Beric has, so it could be argued that she could lose more humanity in between, we just don't know what's more important.

Also, Cat was resurrected with the last dregs of Beric's own 'life fire', rather than by Thoros, and we don't know what impact that might also have had on her.

How quickly was Beric revived? He got hanged by Amory Lorch and Amory is still alive so I assume Beric was hanging out for a while, not three days, but longer then after Sandor sliced him.

3 hours ago, Morte said:

She does - also - want to find her daughters, yes. But her primary actions are about vengeance: She is killing everyone she thinks involved with the RR or the Freys in general. Killing everybody you think associated with someone or something, even if they weren't, is not "answering for their crimes" and it's not justice, but bloody and stupid vengeance, which leads to nothing but death (for everybody involved). Putting more injustice on injustice someone did suffer doesn't make the injustice go away, it only makes it into even more injustice.

Her daughter comes first, vengance second. They told Merrett if he answered they wont kill him (they lied, but maybe if he had an answer to where the stray dog or 10 year old child they wouldnt) 

If vengance was the primary goal then there would be no orphanage watched over by Lem.

Ok. Imo two wrongs dont make a right and killing is 99% of the time wrong and cruel.  (I never got passed the fact that Ned killed the dude in chapter 1 and called it justice. The only death I can think of that I agree with is Aerys and Karstark, as letting them live will cause more death and mayham) If it was up to me Walder and his heirs and friends would have their riches and privileges taken away. But its not. 

Outlaws have been fighting pro Lannister forces since book 1, now that theyve commited crimes against the gods, how could the outlaws lax their campaign?

I agree that hanging Pod is exceptionaly cruel, but we dont really know the full story behind it. Hyle and Brienne were asking for it

[chrisdaw]

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And what does Tyrion or Brienne look like? Bad guys?

Thoros laments that back in the Beroc days they called themselves heroes while now they follow a corpse whos drabbed in grey, very melancholy. In truth they were never heroes, just killers amd thieves

Edric searching for Arya would not "taint" him

Character fan arguing against what the text is giving you.