Why was Jamie still a Kingsguard for Robert

[Chris Mormont]

I always wondered why Jamie was still in the Kingsguard once Robert was named King.  I understand Cersie would want Jamie close and this gives him reason to be close to her in KL, also it must be a tremendous honor to be part of the KG, and Jamie may not want to give that up.  However, I would think that Tywin would want his heir back, and even though Jamie killed his enemy, wouldn't Robert have some cause for concern that if Jamie slew one king what would stop him from trying it again. Ultimately though I would think Tywin's desires would have overrode all the others and been able to get Jamie removed if he wanted.

[kleevedge]

Kingsgaurd serves for life.

[zandru]

3 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

However, I would think that Tywin would want his heir back

And that may be the key. Robert probably didn't feel intensely grateful to the Lord of Casterly Rock, who didn't choose sides until the war was basically over and Rhaegar killed. Keeping Tywin's golden-haired hair permanently in King's Landing as a celibate Kings Guarder may have appealed to him. Plus, Cersei no doubt loved it - and Robert never figured out why. It seems clear that Robert didn't care much for the Kingslayer, and enjoyed humiliating him by making Jaime stand guard at the door while Robert caroused with multiple women, innumerable times. Recall also at the feast on the first day of the Hand's Tourney where Robert drunkenly threw Jaime across the room for suggesting he shouldn't compete in the melee. This may not have been the first time Robert physically assaulted Jaime. But he got to, because he was the King.

[Ser Leftwich]

4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve _whoever_ is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan _choose_ to continue their service as Robert was crowned?

The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Kingsguard

Seems like Robert pardoned him and Jaime didn't want to leave the KG.

[Bael's Bastard]

54 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

I always wondered why Jamie was still in the Kingsguard once Robert was named King.  I understand Cersie would want Jamie close and this gives him reason to be close to her in KL, also it must be a tremendous honor to be part of the KG, and Jamie may not want to give that up.  However, I would think that Tywin would want his heir back, and even though Jamie killed his enemy, wouldn't Robert have some cause for concern that if Jamie slew one king what would stop him from trying it again. Ultimately though I would think Tywin's desires would have overrode all the others and been able to get Jamie removed if he wanted.

According to Stannis, it was Jon Arryn who convinced Robert to keep Jaime in the Kingsguard. Eddard Stark had urged Robert to strip the white cloak from Jaime and send him to the Wall, but Robert listened to Jon Arryn instead (ASOS: Davos IV).

Tywin certainly would have wanted Jaime restored as his heir, and even fifteen or more years later, it is clear he had never given up on the idea of getting Jaime restored as his heir to Casterly Rock. But his treacherous late entrance into the war on the side of Robert, and Jaime's own treachery, enabled Jon to offer them tempered rewards.

Jon wanted to both bind Tywin to Robert while also keeping him in check. Robert wedding Cersei would bind Tywin to him, while pardoning Jaime and keeping him the Kingsguard would help keep him in check.

Pardoning Jaime and keeping him in the Kingsguard essentially kept him in the same hostage position that Aerys had put him in in the first place, while allowing them to be able to claim that they had spared him a worse fate of execution or the Wall.

Tywin couldn't really openly object, as by all rights they could have had Jaime executed or sent to the Wall, but they pardoned him, and permitted him the "honor" of continuing to serve in the Kingsguard.

This ensured Tywin continued to be stuck with the son he hated, Tyrion, as his only male heir, while his beloved son Jaime remained a hostage in the event he and his family were to ever waver, and while his only daughter Cersei and any children she produced were in the "possession" of the Robert and Jon.

 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

I always wondered why Jamie was still in the Kingsguard once Robert was named King.  I understand Cersie would want Jamie close and this gives him reason to be close to her in KL, also it must be a tremendous honor to be part of the KG, and Jamie may not want to give that up.  However, I would think that Tywin would want his heir back, and even though Jamie killed his enemy, wouldn't Robert have some cause for concern that if Jamie slew one king what would stop him from trying it again. Ultimately though I would think Tywin's desires would have overrode all the others and been able to get Jamie removed if he wanted.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei had something to say about keeping Jaime in the KG, nominally for her own protection but other reasons as well...

[zandru]

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

According to Stannis, it was Jon Arryn who convinced Robert to keep Jaime in the Kingsguard. ...

Your analysis is smart and convincing. Thanks!

[Kandrax]

7 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

I always wondered why Jamie was still in the Kingsguard once Robert was named King.  I understand Cersie would want Jamie close and this gives him reason to be close to her in KL, also it must be a tremendous honor to be part of the KG, and Jamie may not want to give that up.  However, I would think that Tywin would want his heir back, and even though Jamie killed his enemy, wouldn't Robert have some cause for concern that if Jamie slew one king what would stop him from trying it again. Ultimately though I would think Tywin's desires would have overrode all the others and been able to get Jamie removed if he wanted.

If i am Robert, i would asked for Gregor and Lorch's heads for Jamie's removal.

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

According to Stannis, it was Jon Arryn who convinced Robert to keep Jaime in the Kingsguard. Eddard Stark had urged Robert to strip the white cloak from Jaime and send him to the Wall, but Robert listened to Jon Arryn instead (ASOS: Davos IV).

Tywin certainly would have wanted Jaime restored as his heir, and even fifteen or more years later, it is clear he had never given up on the idea of getting Jaime restored as his heir to Casterly Rock. But his treacherous late entrance into the war on the side of Robert, and Jaime's own treachery, enabled Jon to offer them tempered rewards.

Jon wanted to both bind Tywin to Robert while also keeping him in check. Robert wedding Cersei would bind Tywin to him, while pardoning Jaime and keeping him the Kingsguard would help keep him in check.

Pardoning Jaime and keeping him in the Kingsguard essentially kept him in the same hostage position that Aerys had put him in in the first place, while allowing them to be able to claim that they had spared him a worse fate of execution or the Wall.

Tywin couldn't really openly object, as by all rights they could have had Jaime executed or sent to the Wall, but they pardoned him, and permitted him the "honor" of continuing to serve in the Kingsguard.

This ensured Tywin continued to be stuck with the son he hated, Tyrion, as his only male heir, while his beloved son Jaime remained a hostage in the event he and his family were to ever waver, and while his only daughter Cersei and any children she produced were in the "possession" of the Robert and Jon.
 

True. Calling Kingsguard oaths still valid was a handily available pretext to keep hold of Jaime as the available Lannister hostage.

Robert, declaring himself King as Baratheon, not Targaryen, might have plausibly declared Kingsguard a Targaryen institution, and the oaths ended with the dynasty. Either no Baratheon Kingsguard, or a blank slate one where Targaryen oaths did not carry over.

But either releasing Jaime to Tywin or sending him to Wall meant giving up the hostage.

What you missed also: Jaime was the only available Lannister hostage. Cersei was not a consideration. At the time Robert decided to pardon Jaime and keep him in Kingsguard, Robert was planning to marry Lyanna - no consideration of Cersei.

[hodorisfaclessman]

14 hours ago, Kandrax said:

If i am Robert, i would asked for Gregor and Lorch's heads for Jamie's removal.

Robert has no grounds too as he openly celebrated the targ kids murder 

[hodorisfaclessman]

Jamie staying was probably a mix of roberts  lack of fear  in his physical  prime (ie he better not try that backstab shit with me or its hammer time) and jon arryns desire to unite the lannisters into the new regime...killing or  nightswatch exile for jamie probably wouldnt have made tywin too keen to hand over cersei as a bride!!

 

[Bael's Bastard]

15 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Robert has no grounds too as he openly celebrated the targ kids murder 

Robert could have attempted to bring the perpetrators to justice, even if Tywin's claim that "Robert's relief was palpable" is true. But as Tywin responds when Tyrion begins to tell him that Oberyn knows that Gregor was responsible: "He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof." There are apparently no living witnesses, or at least none willing to testify against Gregor. And even if Robert had attempted to put Gregor on trial, he would have been found "innocent" in the Trial by Combat he surely would have demanded.

[hodorisfaclessman]

15 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Robert could have attempted to bring the perpetrators to justice, even if Tywin's claim that "Robert's relief was palpable" is true. But as Tywin responds when Tyrion begins to tell him that Oberyn knows that Gregor was responsible: "He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof." There are apparently no living witnesses, or at least none willing to testify against Gregor. And even if Robert had attempted to put Gregor on trial, he would have been found "innocent" in the Trial by Combat he surely would have demanded.

Yeah id doubt tywin would allow it ,the new regime wanted the lannisters on board and he knew it so he holds all the cards

[The Sunland Lord]

So that he can become the Father of Kings.

[Angel Eyes]

Here’s what I think: it was Cersei’s idea, Jaime refused to give up the Kingsguard, and Robert was already apathetic enough for her to do the thinking.

[Bael's Bastard]

25 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Here’s what I think: it was Cersei’s idea, Jaime refused to give up the Kingsguard, and Robert was already apathetic enough for her to do the thinking.

We're told it was Jon's idea. Releasing him from his vows was never on the table. It was either pardon him and keep him on the Kingsguard or send him to the Wall. Cersei's opinion wasn't a factor, and Jaime didn't have a choice. He had already been pardoned and kept on when he was sent to be part of the honor guard that brought Cersei to King's Landing to wed Robert. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 8/9/2018 at 2:28 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve _whoever_ is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan _choose_ to continue their service as Robert was crowned?

The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Kingsguard

Seems like Robert pardoned him and Jaime didn't want to leave the KG.

Basically, yes.  Jaime didn't want to leave the KG and his lover behind.  This would have been the perfect chance for Tywin to get his heir back but Jaime wanted to stay on.  I gotta say, Robert was foolishly brave to keep as his bodyguard a man who killed his last king.  It was one of Rob's undoing.

[Bael's Bastard]

5 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Yeah id doubt tywin would allow it ,the new regime wanted the lannisters on board and he knew it so he holds all the cards

Tywin wasn't in a position to dictate to King Robert. He joined the rebels at the last possible moment, and was lucky to be rewarded rather than punished. But Robert was a forgiving sort, and Jon advised making him an ally rather than enemy, so he pardoned Jaime and wed Cersei. If he'd wanted to try Gregor Tywin couldn't have done anything about it. Nor would he have jeaopardized Jaime and Cersei for the life of his murderous dog, especially when he could count on Gregor winning any trial he was put on on his own.

[Bael's Bastard]

4 minutes ago, Buell Rider said:

Basically, yes.  Jaime didn't want to leave the KG and his lover behind.  This would have been the perfect chance for Tywin to get his heir back but Jaime wanted to stay on.  I gotta say, Robert was foolishly brave to keep as his bodyguard a man who killed his last king.  It was one of Rob's undoing.

Releasing Jaime from his vows wasn't an option. Jaime's or Tywin's opinion on the matter wasn't a factor. They were both lucky he wasn't executed or sent to the Wall, but Jon preferred him as a hostage nearby rather than a future Lord Commander far away.

[hodorisfaclessman]

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Tywin wasn't in a position to dictate to King Robert. He joined the rebels at the last possible moment, and was lucky to be rewarded rather than punished. But Robert was a forgiving sort, and Jon advised making him an ally rather than enemy, so he pardoned Jaime and wed Cersei. If he'd wanted to try Gregor Tywin couldn't have done anything about it. Nor would he have jeaopardized Jaime and Cersei for the life of his murderous dog, especially when he could count on Gregor winning any trial he was put on on his own.

Actualy tywin is in a good spot to secure a deal  ,bear in kind even by first novel decades later robert is afraid of his position esp the elephants in the room (dorne,the reach and targs)  jon arryn is wise enough to know sealing an alliance with the lannisters secures the realm both ecomomicaly and militarily...both sides wanted it equally 

 jon arryn knew the imprtance of securing a lannister alliance sealed in marriage so there was no chance of humilitating such a prideful and vengeful lord  and making demands all for the sake of trying 2 of  his bannermen  one of whom will prob kill anyone who tries to face him down anyway