Mercator Projection

[Brightstar_]

Hi everyone,

Considering that it is stated that the world of ASOIAF is a globe, like our own Earth, that would mean that the map that we are all familiar with is a mercator projection. Which makes me wonder if GRRM did or did not keep that into account when designing the map and whether or not everything is to scale. If he didn't account for this, this would mean that Essos is even more gargantuan than it already is (considering most it's landmass lies around the "equator") and that the lands of always winter and The North in general are in fact much smaller.

I realize this is a very minor point that doesn't really affect the story at all, it's just something that's always been on my mind.

[kleevedge]

Ya I referenced this in one of my theories. A lot of things along the same latitude line share similar climates due to its location. Dorne, Ghis, Slavers bay, Valyria, the red waste are the hottest areas on the map, and all of them are along the same latitude line. I think after the bones the map isn't exactly correct and the grey waste should line up more with winterfell and the north.

[Brightstar_]

I missed your theory, but having read it I do think it makes a lot of sense for Mussovy to in fact be located much more towards the "North Pole" especially with 1000 feet high forts, nice catch

[Tucu]

26 minutes ago, Brightstar_ said:

Hi everyone,

Considering that it is stated that the world of ASOIAF is a globe, like our own Earth, that would mean that the map that we are all familiar with is a mercator projection. Which makes me wonder if GRRM did or did not keep that into account when designing the map and whether or not everything is to scale. If he didn't account for this, this would mean that Essos is even more gargantuan than it already is (considering most it's landmass lies around the "equator") and that the lands of always winter and The North in general are in fact much smaller.

I realize this is a very minor point that doesn't really affect the story at all, it's just something that's always been on my mind.

We don't know how big Planetos is or what percentage of the planet is represented by the maps. So we have no way to know how distorted the maps are.

[Brightstar_]

Just now, Tucu said:

We don't know how big Planetos is or what percentage of the planet is represented by the maps. So we have no way to know how distorted the maps are.

True, but GRRM has stated that "Planetos" is a little bit bigger than Earth, which (correct me if I'm wrong here) would mean that Essos would be even bigger and the North even smaller respectively, no?

[Brightstar_]

2 minutes ago, Brightstar_ said:

True, but GRRM has stated that "Planetos" is a little bit bigger than Earth, which (correct me if I'm wrong here) would mean that Essos would be even bigger and the North even smaller respectively, no?

Hold on I'm being retarded, the size of the planet shouldn't matter at all should it, everything would still be equally disproportional.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

I've found that with fantasy maps it is always best to go with the "flat earth" policy. The author and/or the people that draw these maps aren't interested in the finer points of cartography (usually). So, you can just rely on the fact that if they provide you with a legend that 100 miles/leagues/whatever is consistent across the face of the map. In any case it is up to the author to provide insight into whether the landmasses are represented proportionally on their map(s).

[Brightstar_]

2 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

I've found that with fantasy maps it is always best to go with the "flat earth" policy. The author and/or the people that draw these maps aren't interested in the finer points of cartography (usually). So, you can just rely on the fact that if they provide you with a legend that 100 miles/leagues/whatever is consistent across the face of the map. In any case it is up to the author to provide insight into whether the landmasses are represented proportionally on their map(s).

Yeah I always read it that way as well, trusting the map to be the correct 2D representation of a round planet (which is impossible) , I just always wondered.

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, Brightstar_ said:

Hold on I'm being retarded, the size of the planet shouldn't matter at all should it, everything would still be equally disproportional.

The size of the planet could matter. If the planet was a lot bigger than Earth, then the Known World could fit in a section of the map with equal level of distortion. But this is not the case here as you mentioned that GRRM has said that Planetos has a similar size to Earth.

[Brightstar_]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The size of the planet could matter. If the planet was a lot bigger than Earth, then the Known World could fit in a section of the map with equal level of distortion. But this is not the case here as you mentioned that GRRM has said that Planetos has a similar size to Earth.

It would only matter if the asoiaf map would turn out to be just like a "local" map and there was for example an entirely new continent between Westeros and Essos in the sunset sea. If it is indeed a map of the entire globe which is just incomplete then it doesn't matter, but I get your point.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Brightstar_ said:

Hi everyone,

Considering that it is stated that the world of ASOIAF is a globe, like our own Earth, that would mean that the map that we are all familiar with is a mercator projection. Which makes me wonder if GRRM did or did not keep that into account when designing the map and whether or not everything is to scale. If he didn't account for this, this would mean that Essos is even more gargantuan than it already is (considering most it's landmass lies around the "equator") and that the lands of always winter and The North in general are in fact much smaller.

I realize this is a very minor point that doesn't really affect the story at all, it's just something that's always been on my mind.

Martin has said that the maps of Planetos are about as accurate as the maps of Earth drawn during the middle ages and before, which is to say, not accurate at all.

[kleevedge]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The size of the planet could matter. If the planet was a lot bigger than Earth, then the Known World could fit in a section of the map with equal level of distortion. But this is not the case here as you mentioned that GRRM has said that Planetos has a similar size to Earth.

I'll do you one further the map looks a lot like earth.

You have north of the wall = Canada

Westeros=USA

Dorne= Mexico (even has the arm of dorne which looks like how North America connects to south)

Braavos, Pentos, the axe - similar to Europe

Old Valyria - Egypt

Ghiscar and slavers bay - Saudi arabia

Qarth and red waste - India

Yiti - China

Dothraki Sea - Mongolia (during the khan dynasty)

Grey Waste - Russia

Sothoryos - Australia

Its all laid out in similar spots as the corresponding country. Or maybe I'm thinking too much and just need to get some sleep

[Brightstar_]

5 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

I'll do you one further the map looks a lot like earth.

You have north of the wall = Canada

Westeros=USA

Dorne= Mexico (even has the arm of dorne which looks like how North America connects to south)

Braavos, Pentos, the axe - similar to Europe

Old Valyria - Egypt

Ghiscar and slavers bay - Saudi arabia

Qarth and red waste - India

Yiti - China

Dothraki Sea - Mongolia (during the khan dynasty)

Grey Waste - Russia

Sothoryos - Australia

Its all laid out in similar spots as the corresponding country. Or maybe I'm thinking too much and just need to get some sleep

No offense but I think the latter is probably accurate, you're looking a bit too much for similarities i think  Obviously there are quite a few similarities, but mostly culture-wise I think, geographically the world is quite different other than the obvious comparisons between England and Westeros and Asia and Essos, which are pretty well known and discussed. We humans are also hardwired to look for anything recognizable in any situation which might also play a part.

[kleevedge]

2 minutes ago, Brightstar_ said:

We humans are also hardwired to look for anything recognizable in any situation which might also play a part.

I agree which is why I think it would also play a role in GRRM's writing, but I will admit it's pretty tinfoily, not quite jetfuel melts steel beams tinfoil, but like what's up with Roswell level tinfoil.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

15 minutes ago, Brightstar_ said:

No offense but I think the latter is probably accurate, you're looking a bit too much for similarities i think  Obviously there are quite a few similarities, but mostly culture-wise I think, geographically the world is quite different other than the obvious comparisons between England and Westeros and Asia and Essos, which are pretty well known and discussed. We humans are also hardwired to look for anything recognizable in any situation which might also play a part.

Quite so. You can do the same overlay of Earth land/culture onto Robert E. Howard's Hyperborea.

[Clegane'sPup]

Weeeel,  The Prince's Pass dinna show up in the book maps until FfC (book four) and rhaegars tower of joy dinna show up until DwD (book five).

Then the coffee table book was released.

AND before the coffee table book there is a map book floating round.

Does any of that play into the ASOIAF book story?

Do I need to purchase extra material to make sense of ASOIAF?

1996 martin's games of thrones was published. A lotta shyte has changed. Gotta stay relevant.

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Westeros is based on a flat earth map. 300 miles at the Wall is the same scale as 300 miles from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell and the same scale as 300 miles in Dorne.

The implication is that the North-South alignment is actually out of whack, as the North will cover significantly more degrees of longtitude than the South on a globe, while retaining the same absolute size as on a flat map.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Slightly off topic, but I investigated the idea that the locals use the Hightower as a sundial.

Quote

From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword.  Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where that shadow fell.

Given that Planetos is roughly the same size as Earth, and Westeros is supposed to be 3000 miles north to south, and the northern end is in the arctic circle, that puts the southern end around the Tropic of Cancer (25 degrees).

If the Hightower is an analemmatic sundial, where the gnomon a 1000 foot vertical fixed object, and the hours of the day are laid out in an ellipse around the gnomon that have to be adjusted for the month of the year.  This is how it would look

 

Given this, during most of the summer months during midday, the Hightower would cast almost no shadow.  On the first day of summer the shadow at midday would only be about 30 feet long, because the sun would be almost directly overhead.  The shadow would be much longer in the morning and evening, if the surrounding land was flat it could cast a shadow up to 6 miles at sunrise and sunset. 

There are no official Oldtown maps, but the Hightower is on Battle Isle, an island in the river that was big enough to build a fortification on top of, so the river itself is at least 1000 feet wide.  So, during summer, between 11am and 3pm, the shadow of the Hightower would not even reach the banks of the river, and when it finally did between 3-6 pm it would only cover about a single city block, after that it would get very long if and only if the island is higher than the surrounding land.  But the island is a bluff, and that would mean that the surrounding land would also be hills or bluffs, since the island was carved from the surrounding land.  So the shadow would not go very far.

The Eiffel Tower is 1000 feet tall, but it is at 48 degrees latitude, and here is the google maps image of the shadow it casts during summer.  The shadow is only about 1000 feet long in that picture, you would hardly describe that as cutting the city like a sword. 

Here are the tools I used.

Sundial creator

Sundial simmulator

 

However, this who line of reasoning goes completely out the window when you read that

Quote

In the very shadow of the Wall the wildlings made ready. . .

The sun was high in the sky, and the upper third of the Wall was a crystalline blue from below, reflecting so brilliantly that it hurt the eyes to look on it. Jarl's four and Grigg's were all but lost in the glare, though Errok's team was still in shadow.

North of the Wall the sun appears to be directly overhead?  The sun is reflecting off the North side of the Wall brilliantly?  If he had said refracting through the wall brilliantly that would make sense.  But he didn't.  George is not consistent enough with these shadows and sun movements, so no conclusions can be drawn.

I don't think George is scientifically-minded enough to be consistent with maps, distances, times, and physics. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Wall is not on the Arctic circle. The Arctic circle lies hundreds of miles further North.

There are a number of reasons why this is the case. I’ll name just one, which is that you don’t get 24 hour daylight in Summer, even well North of the Wall. Clearly, then, even the Haunted Forest is not in the Arctic circle.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Wall is not on the Arctic circle. The Arctic circle lies hundreds of miles further North.

There are a number of reasons why this is the case. I’ll name just one, which is that you don’t get 24 hour daylight in Summer, even well North of the Wall. Clearly, then, even the Haunted Forest is not in the Arctic circle.

If you were replying to me, I did not say the Wall was on the Arctic Circle, I said the northern end of Westeros was.  Are The Lands of Always Winter not the polar icecap?  Or are they something else?