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S John

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Getting some much needed experience doing a couple of one week placements. Two at different law firms, one on the legal team of a housing association.should be good, despite the hoops I’ve had to jump through to get the people from the last one to answer my emails. Anyone got advice on making the most of short work experience placements? Want to get as much as I can from this

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I'm currently interviewing for a job with a good friend of mine in the Cyber Security field, a field that I have no practical experience in. The role is relatively senior in a major bank and is in another country. I'm excited at the opportunity to learn a new set of skills in a very hot field but I'm also scared shitless of the fact I know nothing. I've been talking to my mate about it for the last year so he's completely aware of my deficiencies but he understands my strengths pretty well and how it can be used to further the goals, something I also understand and can articulate. So there is something there for me but still kind of scary.

The two things holding me back though are that I just got promoted at work, so that's kind of awkward and I'm not sure the bank will pay what I'm asking for to make it worth me moving from NY to London again. I do feel pretty fortunate that I'm happy where I am and can easily walk away from the bank should they not match what I want but also know that if they do match what I want, I will have to live up to what they are paying. Been 7 years since I've interviewed for a new job (and a lot has happened in that time) so feel completely out of practice with all this.

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4 minutes ago, Mexal said:

I'm currently interviewing for a job with a good friend of mine in the Cyber Security field, a field that I have no practical experience in. The role is relatively senior in a major bank and is in another country. I'm excited at the opportunity to learn a new set of skills in a very hot field but I'm also scared shitless of the fact I know nothing. I've been talking to my mate about it for the last year so he's completely aware of my deficiencies but he understands my strengths pretty well and how it can be used to further the goals, something I also understand and can articulate. So there is something there for me but still kind of scary.

The two things holding me back though are that I just got promoted at work, so that's kind of awkward and I'm not sure the bank will pay what I'm asking for to make it worth me moving from NY to London again. I do feel pretty fortunate that I'm happy where I am and can easily walk away from the bank should they not match what I want but also know that if they do match what I want, I will have to live up to what they are paying. Been 7 years since I've interviewed for a new job (and a lot has happened in that time) so feel completely out of practice with all this.

If it helps, I also work for a major bank and they often hire people "off the street" based on potential, not existing skillset. Banks are very particular about their own systems and procedures, so they don't always want prior experience as that can taint the learning process.

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18 minutes ago, Ferrum Aeternum said:

If it helps, I also work for a major bank and they often hire people "off the street" based on potential, not existing skillset. Banks are very particular about their own systems and procedures, so they don't always want prior experience as that can taint the learning process.

Interesting. I would think in this particular position, skillset matters but who knows. The issue really comes down to needing a CIO waiver to hire me and that means my background will come under the microscope. Should be fun.

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On 11/28/2018 at 4:13 AM, Xray the Enforcer said:

Thank you! and yeah, looking for format ideas beyond the traditional single-column reverse-chronology approach. 

For senior people, I prefer to see a format of:

(Optional) objective; could be type of role sought, or impact you want to make to a firm or the industry.  I don't use one of these but I think it's OK for a senior person to have this.

High level summary characteristics: tell me in 3-5 bullet points what are your key skills or abilities that you have measurably demonstrated.  This is the most important piece.  If someone does this honestly and sincerely, it basically replaces the entire remainder of the resume.  If someone bullshits and exaggerates, it will be immediately obvious from their actual experience or in the first interview.  Anything you put here has to be relevant and easily supported.  The top 3-5 also show your ability to prioritize and effectively self-evaluate.  No bloat.

Experience: usual reverse chronology but now you can exclude some of the qualitative description and instead record specifics like role title, responsibility, measurable results.  This should be more condensed than the average resume.

Education: a throwaway mention to your advanced degrees and many professional credentials because you take it for granted that someone with your demonstrated ability must have these.

Publications: include a convenient URL to a site that hosts links to all of your relevant publications, whether white papers published by your firm, interviewed by the industry press, academic papers, actual books.

(Optional): Volunteer/community activity.  I would exclude it, but I would not ding someone for including it.  Especially if the network effect is significant to their role.

This format might not be relevant for all industries, especially not highly creative ones, but it's what I would like to see.

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4 hours ago, Mexal said:

I'm currently interviewing for a job with a good friend of mine in the Cyber Security field, a field that I have no practical experience in.

I know a woman who ~10 years ago got a role as a consultant for a cyber security firm.  Her job is to lead the presentation of cyber security projects to paying clients.  She had zero knowledge of the field, her PhD was in English, she had very limited formal work experience, and she had never written a line of code, configured a network or even the slightest idea of how network security worked.  She read a dumbed-down-for-the-masses book on cyber security just before the interview (think "Idiots Guide to ...") and heavily implied that her PhD was actually in network security without being so crass as to tell any explicit lies.  She basically blagged her way into a job for which she has had zero knowledge or experience.  She has maintained the fiction all these years by successfully regurgitating the information from the specialists (who are useless at speaking to the clients) and by relying on the same chutzpah that got her the job in the first place, and by mostly focusing on the more relatable "soft" aspects of cyber security, like the psychology of phishing/spear-phishing/etc.  She still has no idea how to write any code or do anything with a network.

If she can do it, surely you can.  :)

 

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I had to lay-off three people in November.  Not because they are bad or useless people, but because they have been chasing a pipe dream for more than five years and never generated a single cent of revenue for the company.  It was time to close down that "business".  The guilt and stress meant I've barely slept in weeks.  Being a soulless corporate hack would be easier if you can suppress any vestigial soul.

 

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4 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I know a woman who ~10 years ago got a role as a consultant for a cyber security firm.  Her job is to lead the presentation of cyber security projects to paying clients.  She had zero knowledge of the field, her PhD was in English, she had very limited formal work experience, and she had never written a line of code, configured a network or even the slightest idea of how network security worked.  She read a dumbed-down-for-the-masses book on cyber security just before the interview (think "Idiots Guide to ...") and heavily implied that her PhD was actually in network security without being so crass as to tell any explicit lies.  She basically blagged her way into a job for which she has had zero knowledge or experience.  She has maintained the fiction all these years by successfully regurgitating the information from the specialists (who are useless at speaking to the clients) and by relying on the same chutzpah that got her the job in the first place, and by mostly focusing on the more relatable "soft" aspects of cyber security, like the psychology of phishing/spear-phishing/etc.  She still has no idea how to write any code or do anything with a network.

If she can do it, surely you can.  :)

This is basically me and the hiring manager knows it. It's one of the reasons he wants me for the job since we're going to be managing some external research relationships with DARPA, Israel, as well as internal relationships with different divisions of the organization. This is pretty much my plan. I like the confirmation that it can be done. 

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4 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I know a woman who ~10 years ago got a role as a consultant for a cyber security firm.  Her job is to lead the presentation of cyber security projects to paying clients.  She had zero knowledge of the field, her PhD was in English, she had very limited formal work experience, and she had never written a line of code, configured a network or even the slightest idea of how network security worked.  She read a dumbed-down-for-the-masses book on cyber security just before the interview (think "Idiots Guide to ...") and heavily implied that her PhD was actually in network security without being so crass as to tell any explicit lies.  She basically blagged her way into a job for which she has had zero knowledge or experience.  She has maintained the fiction all these years by successfully regurgitating the information from the specialists (who are useless at speaking to the clients) and by relying on the same chutzpah that got her the job in the first place, and by mostly focusing on the more relatable "soft" aspects of cyber security, like the psychology of phishing/spear-phishing/etc.  She still has no idea how to write any code or do anything with a network.

If she can do it, surely you can.  :)

 

I hope they make allowances for the wheel barrow that must be required to tote around her massive balls.  

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1 hour ago, Iskaral Pust said:

For senior people, I prefer to see a format of:

(Optional) objective; could be type of role sought, or impact you want to make to a firm or the industry.  I don't use one of these but I think it's OK for a senior person to have this.

[[snip]]

Thank you for the advice!! This is super-helpful and was where I was thinking of going with mine. I like the focus on results -- that's something I've noticed has been missing on the resumes that have come across my desk in the last year or so, even for higher-level positions. 

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4 hours ago, S John said:

I hope they make allowances for the wheel barrow that must be required to tote around her massive balls.  

Seriously, right.  I’m stilled so impressed she pulled it off.  I officially abhor her duplicity, and taking that job opportunity from someone who spent years learning their shit.  But imagine having the balls to even attempt it!?  And what if she tried the same trick for a job as a structural engineer or a heart surgeon or something?  Perhaps it’s better for all of us that she stopped where she did. 

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1 hour ago, Triskele said:

That's a very useful guide.  While I'm not a super senior person I already feel like my graduate degree is not particularly noteworthy and could indeed be something I mention further down rather than further up.  At the place I'm at I think the three big things I do well are probably more important to most prospective folks.  

At any rate, had a phone interview today.  It went pretty long and ended with the guy saying he appreciated all the time I took and that he'd like to follow up with me next week to see if I could come in (though no time was setup).  So I didn't run to send a thank you email just yet but did sort of wonder if I should still do that just off of this phone interview or wait to hear from them.  Any advice appreciated.  

Ah yea, the awkward dance.  My most recent interview ended similarly with both me and them saying something like ‘thanks for taking the time and looking forward to talking to you again soon!’  

Which led me to a good long think about whether or not it was even necessary to send that obligatory follow up email that basically says  ‘thanks for taking the time and looking forward to talking to you again soon!’  We literally just said that out loud to each other’s faces. 

I sent it anyway, but I waited til the next day.  Ymmv, but as redundant as it seemed, I felt that it would have been a breach of expected protocol to not do it.  Basically, I don’t think it’ll hurt to do it but maybe there’s a remote chance that it’ll hurt not to?  That was my take on it anyway.

Its hard to imagine that there’s a curmudgeonly manager somewhere shredding resumes after very positive interviews because the person didn’t send a meaningless follow up email when thanks and future intent were clearly expressed in the interview... but just because I personally would not keep score like that doesn’t mean that others will see it the same way.

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6 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Seriously, right.  I’m stilled so impressed she pulled it off.  I officially abhor her duplicity, and taking that job opportunity from someone who spent years learning their shit.  But imagine having the balls to even attempt it!?  And what if she tried the same trick for a job as a structural engineer or a heart surgeon or something?  Perhaps it’s better for all of us that she stopped where she did. 

I prefer to look at it this way - if she impressed over someone who spent years learning their shit then they probably don't know their shit as well as they should or as well as they think they do or they need to brush up on their social skills. Either way, they need to improve.

And I don't buy for a minute that there are people who don't know about her lack of knowledge on the matter. If these so called experts and specialists haven't figured that much out then her company has bigger problems on their plate.

I can't speak about US systems but in Serbia you would need a state license to do anything in civil engineering without someone overseeing it and even then you have some control system in place. Surgery is at least as strictly controlled.

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I work in IT and that story is horrifying. I think less so for Mexal's situation, because the employer knows he doesn't have the background and is willing to train. But the other one, woof, that makes me cringe. You don't necessarily have to know the technical side inside and out, a senior manager is probably not configuring the security gear themselves, but you need to understand the concepts to effectively direct the people under you.

In fact, there's a good chance that that's what's happening and why she hasn't been found out -- she probably has good people working under her who are doing what they think is a good idea, independently. I can almost promise you they are shit talking her privately, though. Working under an idiot in this field is galling.

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4 hours ago, Inigima said:

I work in IT and that story is horrifying. I think less so for Mexal's situation, because the employer knows he doesn't have the background and is willing to train. But the other one, woof, that makes me cringe. You don't necessarily have to know the technical side inside and out, a senior manager is probably not configuring the security gear themselves, but you need to understand the concepts to effectively direct the people under you.

In fact, there's a good chance that that's what's happening and why she hasn't been found out -- she probably has good people working under her who are doing what they think is a good idea, independently. I can almost promise you they are shit talking her privately, though. Working under an idiot in this field is galling.

Since her job is mostly to be the client-facing lead on each consulting project, I think she mostly recites the project plan at the outset, including a qualitative description of tests they'll run, and then she presents the findings and recommendations alongside a technical specialist who was part of running the actual tests.  In theory she was supposed to have subject matter expertise for this role but in reality it seems to matter more to be a persuasive and engaging talker, which the technical specialists lack (in her description).

I would guess that her team members don't have a ton of respect for her.  Tech culture always seems to lionize hard skills and lament the expectation of soft skills.

She has been doing it for a decade so she's clearly not terrible at her job.  She just did an end run around the original expectations/requirements of candidates.

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19 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

She has been doing it for a decade so she's clearly not terrible at her job.

The one absolutely does not follow from the other. I have known some people who were absolutely awful at their jobs who managed to hang on anyway.

I do think soft skills are important in tech, but, well, so are hard skills. My boss hasn't done any hands on work in years but he knows enough about them to know what he wants done and why.

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