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Careerchat III


S John

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So I had the interview today and I did pretty well. The downside was clearly the technical side of the interview. I understand the investigative cycle concepts, different penetration points and attack vectors, different exploits and vulnerabilities but I lacked the practical experience of working with any of it which the hiring manager knew going in. Still, there are definitely a set of skills here that I have that they need and they know it so we'll see what happens. Next round if I move on is with the MD so that will be interesting.

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21 hours ago, Mexal said:

So I had the interview today and I did pretty well. The downside was clearly the technical side of the interview. I understand the investigative cycle concepts, different penetration points and attack vectors, different exploits and vulnerabilities but I lacked the practical experience of working with any of it which the hiring manager knew going in. Still, there are definitely a set of skills here that I have that they need and they know it so we'll see what happens. Next round if I move on is with the MD so that will be interesting.

Now I'm working on a promotion. This is fun.

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Got a note last night my interview was being cancelled, as they were going to go in another direction.  I sent a follow up thank you note, and asked if they had any thoughts on improving my interviewing process. The response was that it wasn't actually me, that they decided not to keep the position.  So I'll keep an eye on it and see if that's true...

Part of me is suddenly worried that people I'm interviewing with could know my boss through a local organization and that word is getting back...

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16 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Got a note last night my interview was being cancelled, as they were going to go in another direction.  I sent a follow up thank you note, and asked if they had any thoughts on improving my interviewing process. The response was that it wasn't actually me, that they decided not to keep the position.  So I'll keep an eye on it and see if that's true...

Part of me is suddenly worried that people I'm interviewing with could know my boss through a local organization and that word is getting back...

Sorry to hear that.  It is possible that the position was just eliminated.  This is when budgets are set for the next year.

If your boss is really so difficult to work for, I would expect it is widely recognized and her opinion would not be held against you.  If I was in your situation, I'd have a candid conversation with that mentor you mentioned along the lines of: "I really like this company and want to succeed here, but I don't know if it's possible with this boss.  And I think there are other people who are actively avoiding or fleeing this boss, so the whole team might be impaired soon so that it's impossible for it to be successful.  What should I do?"

That would at least get you some reaction on how the boss is perceived and whether it's acknowledged that she is becoming toxic to her team.  It might also help draw attention to the situation.  If a boss and one employee don't get along, it's usually viewed as a problem with the employee (unless they are a superstar producer).  If a boss doesn't get along with any of their employees, then it's definitely a problem with the boss -- either they are directly a problem or they are persistently hiring the wrong employees, which is just as bad.

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On 12/4/2018 at 10:26 PM, Triskele said:

Meaning on the current job and not the opportunity you'd been posting about, I assume?  Does that make the other one caput (sp) even if you got an offer?  

I was being cheeky. I did recently get a promotion at my current job but this was more a comment on the fact that I'm looking at a potentially bigger role at the organization I'm talking to in order to justify my potential cost.

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21 hours ago, Triskele said:

Random process question in case anyone has any thoughts:

In the portal where I can apply for jobs within my organization we list all of our past work experience / positions plus the supervisor there.

In each case there's a "can we contact this supervisor" yes/no question.  Am I right that it would be pretty unusual to say "yes" to one's current supervisor for obvious reasons (and that a prospective employer would find that to be a normal response) but also that it might look bad to say anything other than "yes" for positions before that?  

If applying for roles outside your organization then absolutely fine to request they not contact your current supervisor or anyone at your current firm. 

If applying for roles inside your organization then you would communicate early who is your current supervisor and you would expect them to be contacted.  But there should usually be some space for informally expressing interest before your supervisor is involved. 

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2 hours ago, Triskele said:

Really?  This surprises me.  But I'm fairly clueless about this stuff hence the question.  

I would have thought that contacting the current supervisor would be understood to be unusual since you're not wanting to top the off that your looking to jump ship.  

If it’s inside your own organization then you’re not really jumping ship.  And your new manager needs to be seen to manage the transition courteously with your old manager, e.g. negotiating the timing and perhaps a phased hand-off. 

If you’re interested in this other role, I suggest you first reach out informally to the new boss to introduce yourself, express your interest and ask about the role and team.  If it seems like there might be some mutual fit, then you can officially submit your interest on the portal.  If you really think your current manager would be petty and punitive if they learn of an unsuccessful attempt to switch teams, then you can choose “no” contact.  Then they’ll only hear about it if you actually get the new role.  But it would be very strange for them not to be consulted on your recent performance, capabilities, etc.

I would be very surprised if an organization had enough expectation of petty retribution by managers that they would look to have internal transfers evaluated/decided in a cloak & dagger fashion that excludes your current manager.  The organization wants talent to get to the best fit and highest value roles. They want managers to facilitate that, not block it with fear.  You should feel able to tell your manager your desired career development in any case, and not have to pretend that your only ambition is to remain where you are. 

I want at least two of my direct reports to be working deliberately toward taking my job in the future. 

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In most cases I think Isk is right, but I've been in a position where I think my manager tried to prevent me from progressing my career within the organization specifically because I was good at my job and he didn't want to lose me. (It is not a good feeling.) Have to use your judgment on whether that's the case with you.

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Brief rant - here because this is what I've got as far as employment goes and I suppose 'colleagues' is the best term to describe the people around me. I feel like the Germans have a better one, but there you go. (Have I ever mentioned that the longer I actually speak English in my daily life the more it feels like a weird toy language? This tactile, plastic thing I can stack up and break down like a bunch of legos, but that doesn't really hold any meaning. Beats me why. I like English, and purely qualitatively, its the probably the language I'm most fluent in at this point. Its just apparently not who I am.) I've finally got a meeting with my supervisor/advisor this afternoon and I feel like if I get some of this out, it won't come out towards him. 

Honestly, I really like my supervisor, I like his approach and level of criticism towards my work - there's not much of it at this point, I've just been doing really big-picture stuff of gradually trying to work out the boundaries of what will be my qual exam (It's not for another year, at the soonest) and I haven't really felt like I'm supposed to see him more than I have - I mean, he's also officially on sabbatical, so it all makes sense to me.

HOWEVER, argh, this place. I've been, well, in school for like 8 years now, and I've never encountered the level of obsequiousness towards, and competitiveness over professors' time, attention, etc. I mean, I get it - structurally, they hold a ton of power over grad students in allocating resources, both immediately and long term in terms of recommending and providing contacts and whatever for job-hunting, but still! I mean, this is - to me - comical, satirical skit, levels of flattery in chance hallways meeting or in classes, competitiveness over getting in office hours (good god you've all already got two degrees, none of us needs advice on how to write a class paper at this point. Or shouldn't need), etc, etc. So I don't mind my relationship with my advisor, but I'm annoyed and baffled that I feel like it would show weakness (or something) to admit I've met him like 4 times since I got here. Or be whiny. Neither of which is what I feel. 

I guess this is really about feeling like I'm getting some weird pushback from a lot of the people in my department ('colleagues') who are weirdly territorial about their various sub-sub-fields, theories and regions, and feeling excluded from the theory people telling me to stick to my little buses and watch it with using 'their' concepts - meanwhile the bus people, who do seem to get me more, are all holed up elsewhere...and I feel like I'm starting to see this division, and have to pick a side?? But what the hell. These concepts are used intensively in both my major research areas. Yes, they're loaded. We all know that. Half the work IN those research areas is about conceptualizing and deliniating these concepts in complex ways. Do not bloody tell me 'I'm sure this isn't really useful for you'. 

OK, yes, I'm specifically irritated with one particular person who works in the same very, very broad geographic region (like, as broad as you can imagine while still on this planet), whose engagement with my work is always both extremely perfunctory - even on the level of basic, that word again, collegiate, decency of like feedback in a writing group - and yet, oddly, I dunno, dismissive? And yet contradictory about specific points (As in, the two times its been brought up, once my central concept was 'really interesting, original, bye' and abouot six weeks later 'well, I mean, that's been done so much and so thoroughly') . Some of it may be in my head, but some of it definitely isn't and there's a weird tension and hostility there. (This person is a font of self assurance I find kind of obnoxious...like, we're all here to learn. Declare yourself an expert on it all if you want, but why do you assume I would take you seriously if there's no possibility of actually engaging in any kind of learning process or challenge to thought with you? And also over the top, profession-wide, global-level name dropping. I don't get it.)

Anyway, yeah, I'm stressed and irritated because theoretical academic concepts and approaches are becoming weirdly embodied and starting to gain emotional heft and mild triggers of feeling and anxiety and exclusion tied to like interpersonal dynamics with individual colleagues….I probably need to figure out how to let that go and take throwaway self-important comments by likely insecure (or insanely secure, which is even worse), similarly neurotic oddballs I'm surrounded with less seriously, and just get on with my work. 

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Meeting with advisor went great. I'm right where I'm supposed to be. Even some of these stress/anxiety issues were touched on and usefully addressed in professional, light, undramatic ways. All's good.

...until someone unilaterally declared that they're getting a dog which will hang out every day in our shared, crowded, 60-year-old brutalist architectural masterpiece but impossible to keep even vaguely clean and has smelled weird since the 80s, theoretically 40-person capacity office. It's a cute dog and so and its done and we're all supposed to like it. I cannot fathom the train of thought that leads to such a declaration or presupposes a collective cheery tolerance for this in the context of a space that is already often cautiously and stressfully negotiated by only its human inhabitants and has presently arrived at a fairly strict working silence, no trash cans they bring insects (dog persons insistence), no guests without prior notice of the entire 40 person mailing list, if you bring in baked goods, they must be labelled for vegans, policy.

But dog is fine.

It is an office.

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I have noticed a growing "fuck it" approach towards people bringing their dogs places.  You won't find a restaurant patio in this city without at least 2 dogs.  I see people with dogs in stores and shops all the time.  And there's a lady at work who brings her dog every day.  Officially she is sneaking it in because it's against the rules, but everyone knows.  I genuinely like dogs so I don't actually mind any of the above, but I do feel like this is a somewhat recent trend of dogs just kinda being allowed in a lot of places they didn't used to be.

The only time it bothers me is when people let them run off-leash in a public space and unfortunately this is a problem at several parks in Austin.  I haven't even bothered going to the Greenbelt in years, which is one of the main places people like to cite for Austin outdoor spaces, because it's full of crusty dickheads who let their dogs run around.   Inevitably they form a pack of barking dogs nipping at each other and running all over everyone's shit.   I'm lying there next to the cool water tryin' to catch some rays and dogs are fucking jumping over me like I'm an obstacle at an AKC show.  Then there's always at least one shitty dog that shows up and can't get along and ends in biting and blood and dumbshit owners acting like they didn't know that their dog wasn't ready for life off the leash.  Drives me nuts.  I don't get why people think other people are automatically going to be cool with an unaccompanied dog approaching them.  I don't know anything about this dog or who it belongs to.  I don't know if it is aggressive or diseased or just wants a couple pats on the head.  It is inconsiderate and rude to put other people in that position and frankly has ruined for me several of the limited green spaces we have in this city.

With that rant out of the way, a well behaved dog that I know in a shared space every day wouldn't bother me personally.  I would actually consider that a plus to have a good boy around who comes and visits my area sometimes.  But I do think there should be some kind of consensus among the other users of that space that it is OK.  Some people are allergic, some people are afraid of dogs, some people just don't really like them and that should be OK too.  In a space designed for humans to be productive humans should take priority, imo.  

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How on Earth does one just declare they'll bring their dog to work? And, more importantly, how on Earth does everyone remain silent on the matter?

I don't mind having a well behaved dog around the office but if someone went "I'm bringing a dog and don't care what you think" my knee-jerk reaction would most likely be "like Hell you are", no matter how great and cute the dog might be. Though that would probably be my reaction to most of these stupid rules this Datepalm's colleague insisted on.

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Ha, coincidentally I have just finished up the first of my short placements and one of the men called in on his day off to pick up his paperwork and brought in his dog. I also find this less than ideal, and I say that as a dog lover. Aside from stuff already mentioned, what about those in the office who don’t like dogs/are uncomfortable around dogs? It’s somewhat rude imo. 

Also when I worked in the pub, which wasn’t dog friendly as some are, one woman started a lengthy tirade against me bemoaning the fact dogs were not allowed outside but were forced to sit on the terrace outside. Ugh. Personally I can think of nothing worse than having dogs in an establishment serving food and drink but whatever.

Also, S John, how come you object to letting dogs off in the parks? I’d have thought that was the ideal place to do so, unless I’m missing something. 

Anyway, to bring this back to career stuff...as I said, finishing up my first short placement. Surprisingly very useful and got to do a lot more substantive stuff than I thought I would. I expected it to be mostly “busy work” since I was only there a short while. To an extent it was, quite a lot of research and fiddly monotonous jobs more senior staff aren’t keen on. But it all contributed to some interesting stuff, and they are even including my work in one of their projects and commended me for picking up on certain issues they had missed out on. Which was nice to hear as a confidence booster.

I’ve been keeping a reflective diary after each day so I have a record of what I’ve done and can refer back to my experience in interviews. But overall this has been a very positive experience

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So far the dog has about 4 people in support and me and another person against (me publically, the other privately - also with a bad dog biting incident in her past). And lots of silence from everyone else.

Yes, the cheery 'this is happening' tone,  and not so much as running it past me (I'm one of the 2 people who sit closest to this person) gets a serious 'fuck you' vibe going for me. More practically, I both assume this will be anti-productive to at least some extent, and on a more personal level have a bad backstory with a dog - my roommate from 2 years ago who kept a large, untrained dog in our small apartment, who attacked me a lot, wouldn't let me leave the room, etc. It was an alltogether bad time and basically being unable to function in my own home did not help, so the whole thing is - and I used this word in my email - 'triggering'. Said dog also attacked someone in the park when let off the leash once - my roommate was actually sued by this guy (who, yes, was an American tourist) - even though this absloutely seemed like the place, but the dog just wasn't trained.

Anyway, since dog-person is going to claim this as a service animal - there's no argument in the email that this is true, just that they can get away with it so why not? - I figure I can chime in with my issues. At the very least, I asked and someone offered, to switch desks to be further away, but I find that a pretty unsatisfying solution.

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4 hours ago, Datepalm said:

So far the dog has about 4 people in support and me and another person against (me publically, the other privately - also with a bad dog biting incident in her past). And lots of silence from everyone else.

It's a no brainer. One person against it - it should not be happening.

P.S. Your roommate sounds like a proper dick.

4 hours ago, Datepalm said:

Anyway, since dog-person is going to claim this as a service animal - there's no argument in the email that this is true, just that they can get away with it so why not? - I figure I can chime in with my issues. At the very least, I asked and someone offered, to switch desks to be further away, but I find that a pretty unsatisfying solution.

What service does this animal provide exactly? Is your coworker blind or something? If not, and the dog is an "emotional support animal" or some similar bullshit then I'd say the guy can bugger off.

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My roommate was at least caught up in this dog situation somewhat unwillingly - dog was abandoned by a someone else, it was supposed to be a very temporary arrangement, he went to great length and expense to try and train him, worked to run things by me as much as possible, and essentially left the apartment after a while (and was functionally homeless for a bit...fortunately it was summer and he basically went semi-nomadic camping) in part because of this. So while the situation was bad for me, I had a lot of sympathy for what was going on and there wasn't a sense of someone basically regarding everyone around them as non-player characters to their own current affectation.

I agree that in a sane universe, this would be conditional...

No, hang on, in a sane universe, this would not be happening, because this is college and not kindergarden and routine adult life shouldn't involve a no-choice petting corner. But this is Well Known For This Sort of Thing California College Town, so, y'know, here we are.

In the slightly less insane universe than the one we are in, this would be a thing you need to do (like my roomate, inherited dog and have no choice or something, or even a real service need) would first cautiously ask about - ascertaining that no one has any, for example, allergies or phobias (much less, you know, a basic preference for not turning their office into a kennel) and then propose some sort of solution that may involve dog-presence, with a helpful menu of adjustments and accommodations for those for whom this change to a supposedly equitably shared space may be disruptive.

None of this happened. All that happened was an email saying, hey y'all, I got a dog. The dog will now be in the office with me and all of you. Yay! That's it. Pronouncement. Not even a 'please let me know if this is ok'. The email is titled "Pure cuteness coming."

I now genuinely hate this person.

This isn't, as far as I can tell, an actual service animal, even within the context of the phenomenon of emotional support animals. There are a fair amount of dogs in the building - I usually run into them in the elevator and frankly often find that weird and aggravating, but I can handle an elevator ride's worth of dog time - but to the best of my knowledge, they share much smaller, more individual space with their owners. (Or, for all I know, every office across campus - nay, across America - is hashing this out as we speak.) Dog-person has announced that her dog would carry this classification as well, but there is no detailing of why or what or even any direct phrasing that this is actually a service animal, just that that's why he'd be allowed in the building. The email announcing this is brief and cheerful, and seems to be about the fun (???) of having the dog with her rather than answering any need.

BTW it's been a day and a half since I responded with being not-OK with this announcement, and have heard absolutely nothing from her, publicly or privately. My email was in the form of 'can someone switch aisles (or rooms, ha ha.) with me, because I can't be around dogs for reasons', rather than a hard no, so maybe she considers it addressed. Or just doesn't give a fuck. Maybe I should have written a hard no and be willing to fight it out, but I feel like it will definitely be a fight - I imagine some poor committee somewhere in the bowels of the university will be tasked with judging the merits and magnitudes of our respective emotional traumas as being helped vs. harmed by presence of dog.

The thing is I now want to switch desks anyway even if we don't get the dog, because I don't want to sit next to this person anymore.

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What's been bugging me here, is - can you imagine if someone announced their kid would now be spending all day in the office? Because what this really is about is treating pet-ownership like some sacred constitutional right. Why should a person with a busy schedule and little private space who can't conveniently or affordably fit the time-consuming and inflexible requirement of keeping a dog, not have a dog? They should have a dog! And if that means they have to bring it to the office every day to also have a life, well, that's everyone else's problem. Because its my right to have a dog my lifestyle makes absolutely no sense for. But imagine if it was a grad student who had just had a child, couldn't afford childcare (no hypothetical - no one can, by definition. It's literally more than our monthly salary) or leave, and proposed a solution of bringing a newborn in everyday. They would just keep a little cot by their desk. It would definitely take up less space than a dog. But that would be ridiculous, because no one has a right to have children.

(In case its unclear, I would be vastly more sympathetic and flexible around someone needing to bring their kid in to work than this pet thing, even if it was fairly disruptive. Argh, why did it have to be a dog? Get some spiders, dog-person. Spiders are great. You'll be so special!)

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Do you not have a boss or some higher authority to decide these issues? What if everyone wants to bring their dog?

I am reminded of a situation that started pretty innocent in my office: some of my employees started feeding a stray cat, that used to hang out around our building. The cat came and went as cats do but the first real notice I took, was when it started to regularly occupy my parking lot in the morning hours for sunbathing (apparently before the catfood was brought out). Fast forward a few weeks and I come in late one morning and I find the cat is in our office in the entrance hallway, eating the catfood. Not okay. Apparently a whole feeding routine including a time schedule for the participating employees had developed right under my nose and (this was my interpretation, though there were many different explanations) they were trying to take this to the next level, introducing the stray as office cat. Which resulted in an official "No Feeding Of Strays In The Office"-Policy and a ban on using our kitchen dishes to put the catfood on.

I used to have an employee who would regularly work from home because she had a dog to look after. Upon request and under conditions (no shared room) the dog was allowed in the office on special occasions. This happened 4 to 6 days a year. But permanently bringing the dog? No way.

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