When is season 8 will John's parentage?/Daenerys' pregnancy be revealed ?

[btfu806]

5 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

From book one AGOT:

“The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? “

i.e. Daughter of Targaryens, Bride of Targaryens, Mother of Targaryens. Don’t you see, Don’t you SEE!

Like all good first books, it gives us a clear clue as to where the story was headed. Later in the series we see the yearning that both Jon and Dany have for a family they believe they cannot have:

JON ASOS

“I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall.”

DAENERYS ADWD

“I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.”

This is not the type of thing that is brought up if nothing is going to come of it, it's brought up because the author wants you to keep it in mind for when it actually happens it's either a surprise or, if you were paying attention, it confirmation of your theory.

There are many clues hinting at the union of Jon and Daenerys, in both the books and the show. So we know they're going to be a couple, add to this the other clues that exist that Dany will have a child and it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together.

For example, Dany's final two chapters in AGOT and her final two chapters in ADWD (she has 10 chapters in both books) share an awful lot of similarities. If you recall Dany has a stillbirth in AGOT Daenerys IIX and in ADWD Daenerys X she has a miscarriage and there are similarities between these two events. First, Dany finds herself in the Dothraki sea for both and right before she has her stillbirth and miscarriage, this happens.

            AGOT Dany IX

“Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter.”

ADWD Dany X

“Its flesh was tart and chewy, with a bitter aftertaste that seemed familiar to her.”

Then, in both instances she forgets a child :

• AGOT Dany IX (after waking up from her fevered dream):

Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream. “Help me,” she whispered, struggling to rise. “Bring me …” Her voice was raw as a wound, and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. “I want …”

***

Dany needed … something … someone … what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered.

***

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs.

***

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. “What is it? I must know. Drogo … and my child.” Why had she not remembered the child until now? “My son … Rhaego … where is he? I want him.”

***

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet … she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been.

ADWD Dany X

Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was… her name… Dany could not recall the child’s name.

That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.

There is a progression going on in the books. Dany's story is cyclical in nature and she is the Child of Three, a version of this even will repeat itself but the conditions surrounding it will be very different. It has to be different in order for her to give birth to a live child because the first two times, when a lot of the conditions where similar, she lost a child.

Very interesting stuff. I will have to go back and read through things. But I was just wondering because the books never made it that obvious to me. The same it never made it obvious to me that Jon and Dany would be together (it was obvious to me that Jon and Dany were related though, what I took from a lot of the symbolism in the book). But thanks for this thorough explanation. Appreciate it!

[MoIaF]

9 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Very interesting stuff. I will have to go back and read through things. But I was just wondering because the books never made it that obvious to me. The same it never made it obvious to me that Jon and Dany would be together (it was obvious to me that Jon and Dany were related though, what I took from a lot of the symbolism in the book). But thanks for this thorough explanation. Appreciate it!

You're very welcome. For me it was clear but you're not the only one who didn't pick up on it right away. There's a blog dedicated to collecting clues both in the books and the show that pointed towards a Jon and Dany union. Here's the site, if you're interested.

https://thechroniclesoficeandfire.tumblr.com/

[jcmontea]

10 hours ago, MoIaF said:

From book one AGOT:

“The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? “

i.e. Daughter of Targaryens, Bride of Targaryens, Mother of Targaryens. Don’t you see, Don’t you SEE!

Like all good first books, it gives us a clear clue as to where the story was headed. Later in the series we see the yearning that both Jon and Dany have for a family they believe they cannot have:

JON ASOS

“I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall.”

DAENERYS ADWD

“I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.”

This is not the type of thing that is brought up if nothing is going to come of it, it's brought up because the author wants you to keep it in mind for when it actually happens it's either a surprise or, if you were paying attention, it confirmation of your theory.

There are many clues hinting at the union of Jon and Daenerys, in both the books and the show. So we know they're going to be a couple, add to this the other clues that exist that Dany will have a child and it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together.

For example, Dany's final two chapters in AGOT and her final two chapters in ADWD (she has 10 chapters in both books) share an awful lot of similarities. If you recall Dany has a stillbirth in AGOT Daenerys IIX and in ADWD Daenerys X she has a miscarriage and there are similarities between these two events. First, Dany finds herself in the Dothraki sea for both and right before she has her stillbirth and miscarriage, this happens.

            AGOT Dany IX

“Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter.”

ADWD Dany X

“Its flesh was tart and chewy, with a bitter aftertaste that seemed familiar to her.”

Then, in both instances she forgets a child :

• AGOT Dany IX (after waking up from her fevered dream):

Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream. “Help me,” she whispered, struggling to rise. “Bring me …” Her voice was raw as a wound, and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. “I want …”

***

Dany needed … something … someone … what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered.

***

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs.

***

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. “What is it? I must know. Drogo … and my child.” Why had she not remembered the child until now? “My son … Rhaego … where is he? I want him.”

***

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet … she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been.

ADWD Dany X

Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was… her name… Dany could not recall the child’s name.

That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.

There is a progression going on in the books. Dany's story is cyclical in nature and she is the Child of Three, a version of this even will repeat itself but the conditions surrounding it will be very different. It has to be different in order for her to give birth to a live child because the first two times, when a lot of the conditions where similar, she lost a child.

ETA: I forgot to note that the first quote happens before Dany walks into the pyre and hatches the dragons.

the bride of dragons sure is a give away isn't it? there are no other dragons in the story at this point for her to marry other than Jon. 

And now that we know his name is Aegon, her quote in Dany 2 of ADWD about marrying her brother's son Aegon also seems to hint at it. 

[honeyed chicken]

On 8/12/2018 at 9:26 AM, DisneyDoc2425 said:

The writers have indicated that there are going to be 3 major plot lines in season 8 focusing on the war with the Night King, Cersei’s fate, and the relationship between Jon and Daenerys. Obviously the two major issues in the third plot line would center around Jon’s parentage and Daenerys’ pregnancy. So when do people think these issues will be brought into the open in season 8 and how will they impact their relationship? When will Jon find out about his parentage and will he then try to hide it from becoming general knowledge? Similarly will Daenerys try to hide her pregnancy? It would seem to me that keeping these issues hidden for too long would not leave much time for these plot lines to be developed to any great degree. Or perhaps one or both of these issues will be kept hidden because they are somehow going to be related to the third major twist that is supposed to occur at the end of the season. So what do people think?

I find it generally useless to speculate on D&D's plot decisions. They treat AOIAF like an anagram and move things around to spell out whatever seems the most "fun" or maybe profitable? Who knows.

That said, the idea that Dany would be pregnant with Jon's child tickles me. I have friends who hate the Targaryens and everything about them, but I'm afraid (for their sakes) that the last season is going to be Targ heavy. I'm ok with all the plot lines D&D have shrugged off and I wish they had more time to explore Rhaegar/Lyanna so Jon (and the audience) can fully understand why his youth in WF was what it was. Or maybe there will be enough time - that is a happy thought.

[DisneyDoc2425]

2 hours ago, honeyed chicken said:

I'm ok with all the plot lines D&D have shrugged off and I wish they had more time to explore Rhaegar/Lyanna so Jon (and the audience) can fully understand why his youth in WF was what it was. Or maybe there will be enough time - that is a happy thought.

Just in case you were not aware the actor portraying Rhaeger posted a picture on Instagram of himself outside a Belfast Hotel and it was assumed he was involved in some filming for season 8 there. So it looks like we will see at least one scene of a flashback to Rhaeger and possibly Lyanna. Perhaps Bran as the Three-Eyed Raven will transmit a dream to Jon (and maybe Daenerys) to verify his claim that Jon is the son of Rhaeger and Lyanna. Or perhaps near the end Bran will do a similar thing to Jon with a dream of Rhaeger talking about his belief that his son will be Azor Ahei in order to help Jon realize what he must do. Personally I have always been of the belief that "A Song of Ice and Fire" really is a ballad about the relationship between Rhaeger and Lyanna and the consequences arising from it.

[honeyed chicken]

41 minutes ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

 Personally I have always been of the belief that "A Song of Ice and Fire" really is a ballad about the relationship between Rhaeger and Lyanna and the consequences arising from it.

I knew Rhaegar & Lyanna would figure promnently in s.8.

I have always taken Ice and Fire to be Martin's homage to his friend & mentor, Roger Zelazny. Zelazny's books often revolved around opposing forces: chaos and order in the Amber series, magic vs. science in other stories, Norse gods vs. Arab gods in still another. Imo, the theme of ASOIAF is the battle of the forces of heat and light (the Lord of Light) vs. the forces of winter and eternal cold (the Others).

I can't quite get to your position of Lyanna as ice and Rhaegar as fire. The Starks (Benjen and Jon Snow) and Targaryens (Maester Aemon) fought side by side at the Wall.  Furthermore, the Starks were erectors of the Wall. Winterfell, the Stark homestead is key to keeping the Others at bay.

Yes, the Night King is a Stark (we think), but he went north of the Wall to take a bride. Lyanna went the other way. Most likely, her son, Jon will oppose the Night King - Stark v. Stark. There's a hint of that in ep.8, s.5 when the two stare at one another across a patch of sea as Jon rescues wildlings from Hardhome.

[DisneyDoc2425]

3 hours ago, honeyed chicken said:

I knew Rhaegar & Lyanna would figure promnently in s.8.

I have always taken Ice and Fire to be Martin's homage to his friend & mentor, Roger Zelazny. Zelazny's books often revolved around opposing forces: chaos and order in the Amber series, magic vs. science in other stories, Norse gods vs. Arab gods in still another. Imo, the theme of ASOIAF is the battle of the forces of heat and light (the Lord of Light) vs. the forces of winter and eternal cold (the Others).

I can't quite get to your position of Lyanna as ice and Rhaegar as fire. The Starks (Benjen and Jon Snow) and Targaryens (Maester Aemon) fought side by side at the Wall.  Furthermore, the Starks were erectors of the Wall. Winterfell, the Stark homestead is key to keeping the Others at bay.

Yes, the Night King is a Stark (we think), but he went north of the Wall to take a bride. Lyanna went the other way. Most likely, her son, Jon will oppose the Night King - Stark v. Stark. There's a hint of that in ep.8, s.5 when the two stare at one another across a patch of sea as Jon rescues wildlings from Hardhome.

There are many theories as to what exactly “A Song of Ice and Fire” actually refers to. One of my views is that it refers to the story beginning with a 100% Targaryen (Fire) and 100% Stark (Ice) relationship between Rhaeger and Lyanna that precipitated the political conflicts that resulted in the wars/personal conflicts that transpired  as a result of it (along with many side stories and themes). As I am sure you are aware there are many theories as to what AOSIF stands for. Besides this one some common other theories relate to Jon/Danerys relationship, Jon by himself, Lord of Light (life-fire) verses Night King (death-cold), and a number of others (some more abstract than others). It might also relate to a combination of a number of the theories together. It may also relate to character arcs (starting in one mode and ending up in the other one).  Hopefully we will get some closure on this at the end of end of the show and books. Perhaps the last words we will hear/see in the show/books are “name/issue and maybe another name/issue-A Song of Ice and Fire”. Perhaps we will be left hanging. Who knows?

[jcmontea]

36 minutes ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

There are many theories as to what exactly “A Song of Ice and Fire” actually refers to. One of my views is that it refers to the story beginning with a 100% Targaryen (Fire) and 100% Stark (Ice) relationship between Rhaeger and Lyanna that precipitated the political conflicts that resulted in the wars/personal conflicts that transpired  as a result of it (along with many side stories and themes). As I am sure you are aware there are many theories as to what AOSIF stands for. Besides this one some common other theories relate to Jon/Danerys relationship, Jon by himself, Lord of Light (life-fire) verses Night King (death-cold), and a number of others (some more abstract than others). It might also relate to a combination of a number of the theories together. It may also relate to character arcs (starting in one mode and ending up in the other one).  Hopefully we will get some closure on this at the end of end of the show and books. Perhaps the last words we will hear/see in the show/books are “name/issue and maybe another name/issue-A Song of Ice and Fire”. Perhaps we will be left hanging. Who knows?

I think most likely it will always refer to many things as ice and fire are recurring motifs in the story that highlight one of the core ideas of the story that two contrasting elements can mutually coexist in one thing. 

[Error-504]

So what if Sam and Bran decide that it is best not to tell Jon/Dany of jon's parentage?

[DisneyDoc2425]

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 12:54 AM, Error-504 said:

So what if Sam and Bran decide that it is best not to tell Jon/Dany of jon's parentage?

I feel that there is a good possibility that Bran and Sam will hold of telling Jon initially about his lineage in order to not distract him from his focus on defeating the NK. A number of people think this issue, as well as Daenerys’ pregnancy, will be kept hidden until near the end of the series in order to present them as part of a dramatic/sensationalized ending to the show. Personally I don’t think it will happen this way. D&D stated in their end of season 7 commentaries that the revealing of Jon’s true lineage will have a significant effect on how he views himself and how others view him as well as having an effect on his relationship with Daenerys.  To work this more extensively into the story line I think his lineage will be revealed rather early in the season (best guess is by end of E2) following some event that cause Bran/Sam to feel he needs to know. Perhaps Daenerys will reveal she is pregnant or perhaps it may be related to Daenerys ordering him to do something he feels would be morally wrong to do but because he has expressed fealty to her he feels honor bound to do. Just my thoughts. We shall see what transpires.

[jcmontea]

2 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

I feel that there is a good possibility that Bran and Sam will hold of telling Jon initially about his lineage in order to not distract him from his focus on defeating the NK. A number of people think this issue, as well as Daenerys’ pregnancy, will be kept hidden until near the end of the series in order to present them as part of a dramatic/sensationalized ending to the show. Personally I don’t think it will happen this way. D&D stated in their end of season 7 commentaries that the revealing of Jon’s true lineage will have a significant effect on how he views himself and how others view him as well as having an effect on his relationship with Daenerys.  To work this more extensively into the story line I think his lineage will be revealed rather early in the season (best guess is by end of E2) following some event that cause Bran/Sam to feel he needs to know. Perhaps Daenerys will reveal she is pregnant or perhaps it may be related to Daenerys ordering him to do something he feels would be morally wrong to do but because he has expressed fealty to her he feels honor bound to do. Just my thoughts. We shall see what transpires.

I almost see it happening as soon as Jon gets to Winterfell. 

Bran has already decided that Jon needs to know. He clearly thinks its only right that Jon would know the truth about himself and his parents.