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Angel Eyes

Lynesse Hightower Confusion

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Posted (edited)

So I have a few questions about Lynesse Hightower, Jorah's second wife.

  1. Why would Lord Leyton acquiesce to a poor lord from the other side of the country to marry his daughter? Were there no better prospects?
  2. Jorah is looking for money to fund Lynesse's expensive lifestyle. Why doesn't he ask his wife's wealthy family for funds? Did they make Jorah provide for everything as a dowry? Are the Hightowers flat-broke and they haven't told anyone? 
  3. After Lynesse became the mistress of a merchant in Lys, the Hightowers are hoping to reach out to her for help against the Ironborn. I guess the whole catastrophe didn't sour relations, did it?
Edited by Angel Eyes

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18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So I have a few questions about Lynesse Hightower, Jorah's second wife.

  1. Why would Lord Leyton acquiesce to a poor lord from the other side of the country to marry his daughter? Were there no better prospects?
  2. Jorah is looking for money to fund Lynesse's expensive lifestyle. Why doesn't he ask his wife's wealthy family for funds? Did they make Jorah provide for everything as a dowry? Are the Hightowers flat-broke and they haven't told anyone? 
  3. After Lynesse became the mistress of a merchant in Lys, the Hightowers are hoping to reach out to her for help against the Ironborn. I guess the whole catastrophe didn't sour relations, did it?
  1. I don't think House Mormont is poor by any means, its just that compared to the South most Northern Houses are poor. Northerners are use to living a relatively simple lifestyle so they don't need an abundance of wealth. I think the bigger question is why did Lynesse agree with the marriage? She probably could have got a better offer from a rich Southern Lord. My guess is she was kind of like an older Sansa who loved the songs and stories of knights, and she got caught up in the moment. 
  2. I don't really know to be honest. It might just be a case of "a mans pride" which didn't allow him to accept help from her family. I doubt the Hightowers are poor, they are one of the oldest remaining Houses in the world, and one of the most powerful Houses in the Reach.
  3. I guess they are at least relatively fine. No matter what most families love each other no matter what stupid decisions they make. 

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I think Lynesse is part of broader picture when it comes to her family. I think she was married off to Jorah because of who he was connected to. Jorah's father was elected the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and he was a Stark bannerman. 

If we go back further than that, Maester Walys, a Hightower bastard was the maester at Winterfell and allegedly the architect of southron ambitions. I personally think that those ambitions had more to do with enduring the north's survival during the Long Night, but we have to wait for the next books to find out if this is true.

And in between his presence at Winterfell and Lynesse arriving in the north, we have Gerold Hightower who was present when Rickard and Brandon were killed and later was at the ToJ with a Stark. Granted, he likely stayed behind because Rhaegar ordered him to, but it doesn't change that he too has a Stark connection.

I think Leyton married his daughter off to Jorah because he needed someone in the north. 

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So I have a few questions about Lynesse Hightower, Jorah's second wife.

  1. Why would Lord Leyton acquiesce to a poor lord from the other side of the country to marry his daughter? Were there no better prospects?  

One sister married a reach lord. Another married a knight. Marrying a youngest daughter off to a lord is a coup, let alone someone who was both a lord and just recognized by the king for valor during war. Jorah was at his peak and Leyton either didn't know or didn't care.

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:
  1. Jorah is looking for money to fund Lynesse's expensive lifestyle. Why doesn't he ask his wife's wealthy family for funds? Did they make Jorah provide for everything as a dowry? Are the Hightowers flat-broke and they haven't told anyone? 

The whole point of marriage, insofar as westerosi nobles are concerned, is the transfer of the woman from one family to the next. I don't recall if the issue is broached but the Hightowers might have also offered a dowry along with the marriage. Asking his wife's family for money would be an implicit admission that he cannot support Lynesse as she's used to and that Leyton made a mistake. There's basically no way the Hightowers can be broke. They were heretofore untouched by the war and are currently building ships and fortifying oldtown. That takes a lot of cash

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:
  1. After Lynesse became the mistress of a merchant in Lys, the Hightowers are hoping to reach out to her for help against the Ironborn. I guess the whole catastrophe didn't sour relations, did it?

I can't imagine it helped but why not try? I don't know if the Oldtown galley captain's opinion is widespread, but him calling her a whore might reflect the higher ups' opinions as well. As a captain, it's not as if he's rubbing elbows with urchins and hobos vs nobles

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Jorah probably promised Lysnesse the moon like he did with Daenerys right after Drogo died. Going on about traveling around the world wine tasting. I'm guessing he gave Lysnesse the same type of speech and unlike Dany she bought it and asked her father to agree to the match. Lysnesse and her father probably thought Jorah would become rich as a tourney knight since he had just won a large tourney. Lysnesse probably thought her life with Jorah would consist of traveling first class around Westeros from castle to castle while Jorah won the tourneys those castles were hosting. I doubt she thought she'd spend most of her life on Bear Island watching Jorah chop lumber. I'm guessing Jorah would have tired of Lysnesse as well as she got older, Jorah likes his women girls very young as we see with his obsession with 13 year old Dany.

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So I have a few questions about Lynesse Hightower, Jorah's second wife.

  1. Why would Lord Leyton acquiesce to a poor lord from the other side of the country to marry his daughter? Were there no better prospects?  Jorah won the tourney.  His stock was high at the time.  And she was not the only daughter.
  2. Jorah is looking for money to fund Lynesse's expensive lifestyle. Why doesn't he ask his wife's wealthy family for funds? Did they make Jorah provide for everything as a dowry? Are the Hightowers flat-broke and they haven't told anyone?  Manly pride?  Besides, I don't think it works that way.  He married Lynesse and picked up the responsibility for her upkeep.  Leyton wanted her married off for the same reason Walder wants his daughters married: so he won't have to support her forever.  You can argue that Roose's dowry was enough to feed Walda for life, but this is the Warden of the North.  There is family honor to be had by sending Walda to Roose.
  3. After Lynesse became the mistress of a merchant in Lys, the Hightowers are hoping to reach out to her for help against the Ironborn. I guess the whole catastrophe didn't sour relations, did it?  It looks that way.  Euron is gonna do a lot of damage to the Reach and the southern coast, including Dorne.  No one could stand against Harren when he took the riverlands until the Targaryens came with their dragons.  Hightower should know the history.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

1. Why would Lord Leyton acquiesce to a poor lord from the other side of the country to marry his daughter? Were there no better prospects?

I think, it was Lynesse's own decision. Probably she was her daddy's princess, so whatever she wanted, her father always agreed to it. Jorah has swept her off her feet. She was impressed by his victory in tournament, and flattered by his courting. Her first impression about him was brighter than the actual Jorah. She mistakenly thought, that he was a better knight, and a richer lord. Or maybe she liked older men, and thought, that young guys, close in age to her own, are boring and stupid, while Jorah had more experience (in all senses). And he participated in Robert's Rebellion, probably was in the very centre of events, and knew a lot of interesting stories about those times. While Hightowers during RR, probably, were stuck together with Tyrells at Stom's End, doing nothing. Probably Jorah has promised her a greater life, a bigger world, I'm your King, you're my Queen, etc.

She had many admirers, but most likely none of them tried to get into her good graces as hard as Jorah. He has fallen madly in love with her, he would have done anything for her, your wish is my command, etc. While her other admirers had limits, dignity, shame. Others were not as desperate to have her. So she has chosen him, because she thought, that he will make her life perfect. Even though she was her daddy's princess, Lord Hightower had other children and a wife, so his attention was devided between them. Though in case with Jorah, if Lynesse married with him, she would have became the center of his universe. Thus she has chosen him.

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

2. Jorah is looking for money to fund Lynesse's expensive lifestyle. Why doesn't he ask his wife's wealthy family for funds? Did they make Jorah provide for everything as a dowry? Are the Hightowers flat-broke and they haven't told anyone? 

Nowadays it's different, but even in real world, less than 100 years ago, it was man's responsibility to provide for his wife/woman. Women rarely worked, they were staying home, birthing and raising children, managing household, and taking care of their husbands. Men were working, and providing income for their families. There was clear distiction between gender roles. Men earned money, women spend them ^_^

So the moment when Jorah and Lynesse said "I do", she became his responsibility. It became his job to provide her with a place to live, food to eat, clothes to wear, money to spend, etc. Asking money from his wife's family was unthinkable. Even just a possibility of something like that, has no place in that world.

Hightowers' money had nothing to do with Lynesse, those are money of her father, and after him - his first son. After she got married, it became her husband's job, to fulfill all her wants and needs. If he didn't had enough money, it was his problem, not theirs.

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

3. After Lynesse became the mistress of a merchant in Lys, the Hightowers are hoping to reach out to her for help against the Ironborn. I guess the whole catastrophe didn't sour relations, did it?

Why would it sour relationship between Lynesse and her family? What happened, was entirely Jorah's fault. She isn't responsible for his inability to sustain for her a lifestyle, to which she was used to, prior her marriage. Whatever he did, is entirely his responsibility. After Lynesse left him, she could have returned back home to her family, and they would have accepted her, on the same terms, as she lived with them before. Though back in her father's house, she would have became again, just one of Lord's children, and not even his heir. While as a mistress of that merchant, she is ruler of his house, on the same level as he is, and even higher than his wife. There life is freer for her, than in her father's house. Which doesn't mean, that she won't help her family, if they will ask her support. Someone as egotistical as her, will be flattered to help them. It will show them, that her social standing is high, higher than it ever was.

Edited by Megorova

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@Angel Eyes this topic is very interesting, I've thought a bit about it, but haven't posted at length about it anywhere, yet.

You may find this a bit tinfoily, but I can't really shake these ideas out of my head.

I know I'm not alone in suspecting that Lord Leyton was for some reason, desperate to marry off his daughter. 

It doesn't seem likely, as young as she was, as beautiful as she was, as accustomed to wealth as she was, that she would be attracted to the much older, more or less provincial (and uncomely) Jorah - that she would give Jorah her token to wear in the tourney. (Did no-one else ask ?)  Nor does it seem likely that not only would she agree, but her father would agree the very night of the tourney that she would marry Jorah. (Were there no other suitors? That seems odd.. )

No-one could have thought that the simpler life of the north would suit Lynesse. The wiki would have it that she and Jorah married for love, and it's certain that Jorah did, but I doubt the same was true for Lynesse.

I suspect that the motive on her father's part was that she would be far removed from Oldtown ... out of sight , out of mind (along with any transgressions she may have committed). This would not be totally unkind on his part. If there was some whiff of scandal about her, it would be better for her, too, if she was removed from the gossip mill.

Long before I gave this topic any thought, I had come to suspect that Satin is actually a Hightower bastard - namely Baelor's ... I'll link to the archived thread below .

On a later reread, I noticed this..

Quote

"To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor's building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and Humfrey's gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore of a sister, we can start paying back the ironmen with some of their own coin. Till then, the best we can do is guard the sound and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash." ... AFFC, Samwell V, spoken by the captain of the Huntress

I always thought that was a bit harsh.. and peculiar. After all , Jorah brought exile on himself and took her off to Essos hiring himself out as a sellsword and leaving her alone for great stretches of time.

We readers are acquainted with Jorah, and though we may think he was weak or foolish to involve himself in the slave trade.. we can still have some sympathy for him trying to keep Lynesse in the style she was accustomed to.

But for someone from Oldtown, you would think there would rather be some harsh mention of Jorah for bringing a daughter of their Lord into disrepute. Why should the captain care if she left a condemned criminal for another man. And Lynesse had not become a whore (although she could have, easily, in Lys). A seafaring man (you would think) would have some understanding of the different social strata in foreign places.

Lynesse is obviously in a position of some respect and power in the society she lives in. So to call her a whore is quite unreasonable... unless she had done something to invite the description before she married Jorah and left Oldtown. If "whore" was some thing that was whispered about her in Oldtown before she ever left, the captain's words would make more sense and So would Lord Leyton's actions in the whole affair of the tourney and her marriage.

Perhaps as a teen , she was thought to be promiscuous ... perhaps there was a serious affair that had not been able to be hushed up entirely?

Obviously, there must have been some reason that she couldn't appeal to her family to fetch her back from Essos while Jorah was away (I don't think money could have been the problem). Under a death sentence if he returned, there would have been nothing Jorah could do about it.

10 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think Lynesse is part of broader picture when it comes to her family. I think she was married off to Jorah because of who he was connected to. Jorah's father was elected the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and he was a Stark bannerman. 

If we go back further than that, Maester Walys, a Hightower bastard was the maester at Winterfell and allegedly the architect of southron ambitions. I personally think that those ambitions had more to do with enduring the north's survival during the Long Night, but we have to wait for the next books to find out if this is true.

And in between his presence at Winterfell and Lynesse arriving in the north, we have Gerold Hightower who was present when Rickard and Brandon were killed and later was at the ToJ with a Stark. Granted, he likely stayed behind because Rhaegar ordered him to, but it doesn't change that he too has a Stark connection.

I think Leyton married his daughter off to Jorah because he needed someone in the north. 

There could be something to this... which brings me back to Satin. I think he's where he is as Lord Leyton's agent (? ... not sure that's exactly the right word ), but I think he's become loyal to Jon.

Here's the link to my archived thread about Satin (Wrongly attributed to Ygrain due to a mod glitch, the OP begins at post #4)

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, bemused said:

I always thought that was a bit harsh.. and peculiar. After all , Jorah brought exile on himself and took her off to Essos hiring himself out as a sellsword and leaving her alone for great stretches of time.

Yes, it is very harsh and pretty unfair, I think. Lynesse may have been a problem child. She is the youngest of ten children, she is clearly spoiled and used to getting her way. That's not to mention that there are a lot of assumptions made by people. Lynesse was married into an impoverished northern House and sent very far from Oldtown. People can easily think that the marriage happened because she dishonored her House and that the marriage was meant to wash the stain. Then she ends up in Lys at the mansion of a merchant prince and becomes his chief concubine. 

People don't necessarily care what happened in the middle of the story. They care about where this thing started and where it ended. So conclusion; she's got to be a whore.

4 hours ago, bemused said:

There could be something to this... which brings me back to Satin. I think he's where he is as Lord Leyton's agent (? ... not sure that's exactly the right word ), but I think he's become loyal to Jon.

Satin is such an interesting character. I read through the post you linked quickly and I could buy that he is a Hightower bastard and if that's the case, then I don't buy that he was a prostitute. Jon says that Satin can write and read after a fashion. Maybe he was born in a brothel just like Obara did and maybe he was taken from there, same as she was. 

Bastards tend to "stick" with their families and we have several examples of that throughout the story. Joy Hill, Garce and Garrett Flowers, Aurane Waters, the Sand Snakes, Daemon Sand, Roland Storm, Jon . . . 

And if he is a Hightower bastard, then this would be a callback to Maester Walys, a Hightower bastard and Rickard Stark. 

If Satin is a Hightower bastard and was sent to the Night's Watch on purpose, then one really has to wonder what Hightower is up to, why he needs eyes at the Wall and what he knows. As far as everything, I think on top of being very aware of things like the Long Night, he is a person in the know when it comes to what happened at the ToJ. 

I have believed since AFFC that Hightower knows about Jon and that Lynesse's purpose in the north killed two birds with one stone. First, she could look in on Jon whenever she went to Winterfell and we know she did travel to Winterfell. And the second was to find out what was going on at the Wall. There's even a whole ice and fire imagery in the prologue of Feast.

Some of this stuff may be completely wrong, but given what we know of Lynesse, she doesn't strike as being all that different from Sansa or Dany in their appreciation for a good looking man. Jorah is not and he was twice her age. 

And there has to be something to Leyton staying "confined" in the tower for a decade. That's the duration of the long summer.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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Posted (edited)

My headcanon is that Lynesse is not actually Leyton's daughter...she's his granddaughter.     She's the bastard daughter of Malora the Mad Maid and some dude she had no business messing with  - my gut tells me Lewyn Martell, but I could be wrong.  A maester at the Citadel is a good second option.   Leyton married her off to Jorah because she's something of a blight on his family and wanted to be rid of her.   

Edited by PrettyPig

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Posted (edited)

@bemused

Satin can't be Lynesse's son.

Lynesse and Jorah has met in 289, during tournament at Lannisport. It was said, that at that time Jorah was twice older than Lynesse. Jorah was born approximately in 254. So in 289 he was 35, and she was 17-18, so she was born in 271 or 272. In 300 Satin is 18, at least, that's what he said, and there's no reason for him to lie. So he was born in 281 or 282. But even if he did lied about his age, it would have been obvious, if he has added many years to his real age, so he is really 18, or close to it. To be son of Lynesse, Satin should have been born not later than in 289, prior Jorah and Lynesse has met. If the year of Satin's birth is 281-282, at that time Lynesse was 10-11 years old, so it's very unlikely, that she is his mother. If she gave birth to a bastard child in her early teens, then why did her father has waited 6-7 years, prior he married her away?

So this theory doesn't work in timeframe of known events.

Edited by Megorova

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Lynese Hightower is Lord Leytons 3rd or 4th daughter, 1 of her sisters married a Lord another a knight and so she as a 4th daughter her options are very low probably either 1 of her fathers house hold knights OR a second son of a Reach Lord. 

Jorah on the other hand was a Lord and a highly respected tourney knight who just had won a huge tourney defeating MANY great knights, so marry Jorah was more of a blessing then anything. ALSO Lynnese seems like she loves to spend her fathers money so he probably thought hey this is perfect I get rid of this huge tax of my money and I send her down North and maybe she gets a dose of humble pie she needs badly, unfortunately it didnt work out for Jorah and the North was just to boring and cold for her. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Megorova

Yes, I agree that Satin can't be Lynesse's son. I realised the timeline was all wrong way back when I first started focusing on Satin.

Besides, among all the other hints that (in my mind) tie Satin to the Hightowers, his appearance has similarities to Baelor. (He of the impeccable reputation :rolleyes:)

Back then, I hadn't really delved into what was going on with Lynesse's story. Later, when re-reading the exchange between Sam and the captain of the Huntress, etc. I began to think - if there are secrets around Baelor, the same could be true of Lynesse , and in fact, it would make more sense if she was somehow tarnished, than that she was suddenly smitten with Jorah.

Then, considering the points made by @Widow's Watch we get into some very interesting territory.

I have very strong doubts that Satin was ever a whore (especially if he's the son of Baelor, who has no legitimate children). He might actually be gay, who knows... he may actually read and write better than he lets on. If he's a Hightower he's under deep cover.

The captain of the Huntress is actually pretty informative. We see that Lord Leyton deploys his offspring to specific responsibilities / positions. And they all seem to take on their tasks obediently. (Willingness may vary)

If Lynesse was deployed to be Leyton's eyes on the North and perhaps on Jon specifically (depending on what Leyton and the Mad Maid know) ... then Jorah ruined that part of his plan.

Orland of Oldtown ("of Oldtown" and "Hightower" can be used synonymously) may have provided some information when he was in Winterfell with Robert, but that couldn't last. Satin may be providing Leyton's next opportunity to have eyes and ears around Jon.

Back to Lynesse - She may actually have done something to tarnish her reputation or there may have been rumours put about to provide cover for Leyton marrying her off to Jorah.

There's a lot yet to be revealed about the Hightowers, and surely some of it will have to come soon (ahem..) in the next book.

Edited by bemused

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, bemused said:

 If Lynesse was deployed to be Leyton's eyes on the North and perhaps on Jon specifically (depending on what Leyton and the Mad Maid know) ... then Jorah ruined that part of his plan.

Eh, Jorah is a complete moron for selling men into slavery, but a lot of the crapping up of the possible plans does fall on Lynesse's shoulders as well. The north is not the Reach and Bear Island is not Oldtown. I think the reason she didn't bother going back to Oldtown after she and Jorah left Bear Island is because she messed up very badly. 

With regard to Jon, Hightower may know of the ptwp prophecy. Gerold Hightower was already a Kingsguard when Summerhall burned down. He became Lord Commander after the event. And if Barristan knows about it and knows about the woods witch prophecy, then Ser Gerold very likely knew as well. Them looking at spells to repel the ironborn means that they may be a lot more aware of prophecies and could have extensive knowledge on the subject. 

If Satin was really sent to Castle Black to be eyes and ears, what's interesting about him is that he arrives at Castle Black right before the great ranging. That's 57 chapters before we are told that glass candles are burning. If the Hightowers have a glass candle, they can see all the way to the Wall for realsies and wouldn't need anyone there to inform them what's going on. 

He would have set out from Oldtown sometime during AGoT, perhaps right after the news of Robert's death by boar arrives and before the birth of Dany's dragons. 

Quote

Orland of Oldtown ("of Oldtown" and "Hightower" can be used synonymously) may have provided someinformation when he was in Winterfell with Robert, but that couldn't last. Satin may be providing Leyton's next opportunity to have eyes and ears around Jon.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Of Oldtown is identifying where someone who doesn't have a last name comes from, I believe. There was another brother of the Night's Watch from Oldtown, Garth of Oldtown. 

Alyn was named Alyn of Winterfell by the BwB. We never knew Alyn's name, but he came from Winterfell, so he was of Winterfell.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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2 hours ago, bemused said:

If Lynesse was deployed to be Leyton's eyes on the North and perhaps on Jon specifically (depending on what Leyton and the Mad Maid know) ... then Jorah ruined that part of his plan.

Look at that situation from this angle - if Lynesse was sent to The North, to watch over Jon, then why didn't she kept low profile, and made her husband to do what he did, and caused their exile to Essos, away from her target?

 

I think, that Leyton and Mad Maid are working for Quaithe, who is the three-eyed crow, and Shiera Seastar. Mirri Maz Duur, and maester Marwyn are Quiathe's disciples, they met her in Asshai. Could be, that Euron Greyjoy is Quaithe's ex-disciple, he betrayed her, and went solo, to get Iron Throne for himself, and not for Shiera's promised Prince (Jon Snow). Quaithe knows who Jon really is. And she is able to look after him, even without using any spies. She can get into his dreams (she was the moon, that chased him in his dream, when he warged into Ghost), and she can spy after him thru usage of glass candle and shadow magic (she was the moon, that kissed him, and etched his shadow on The Wall), and she has her people near Jon - wildling witch Morna is, most likely, working for Quithe/Shiera.

Gerold Hightower knew about Jon (he was even there, when Jon was born). Maybe he informed at least someone from Hightower family, where he was in those months between him founding Rhaegar (probably at Starfall) and him dying at the Tower of Joy. 

Varys is a Blackfyre, probably grandson or great grandson of Calla Blackfyre and Bittersteel. It's obvious, that Redwynes and Tyrells are working for Varys and Blackfyres. Shiera and Varys are enemies. He has his agents in The Reach, even in the Citadel. So Shiera had to counter him with something, and thus her people there are Leyton and his daughter, and maester Marwyn. Maybe Satin is also one of Quaithe's people, and she has sent him to Castle Black to watch over Jon.

For some reason Oldtown is important for future events. There's something there. And Euron knows about it, that's why he wants to seize Oldtown. And Faceless Men also know about whatever is going on there, so they also have their spy in the Citadel - fake Pate.

I think, that there's a slight possibility, that when Cinnamon Wind went from Braavos to Oldtown, Quaithe also was on that ship, and she returned to Westeros together with Sam and Gilly. She got off that ship in the Whispering Sound, probably went on board of the Huntress. Or not, and I'm just too bored without next book ^_^

 

Back to Lynesse - maybe she wasn't a spy, or a "secret agent", while she was in 7K, but it's possible, that she is now, and the reason why she has chosen Tregar Ormollen as her benefactor, because he has significant standing in Lys, and Shiera's mother, Serenei, was also from Lys. So maybe they got together, because both of them were working for Shiera.

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9 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Lynese Hightower is Lord Leytons 3rd or 4th daughter, 1 of her sisters married a Lord another a knight and so she as a 4th daughter her options are very low probably either 1 of her fathers house hold knights OR a second son of a Reach Lord. 

Jorah on the other hand was a Lord and a highly respected tourney knight who just had won a huge tourney defeating MANY great knights, so marry Jorah was more of a blessing then anything. ALSO Lynnese seems like she loves to spend her fathers money so he probably thought hey this is perfect I get rid of this huge tax of my money and I send her down North and maybe she gets a dose of humble pie she needs badly, unfortunately it didnt work out for Jorah and the North was just to boring and cold for her. 

 

 

Jorah was an ok catch for Lynesse.  Bear Island and his finances were the problem.  There is not much gold to be made from the island.  And stew.  That has to get old.  

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18 hours ago, bemused said:

@Angel Eyes this topic is very interesting, I've thought a bit about it, but haven't posted at length about it anywhere, yet.

You may find this a bit tinfoily, but I can't really shake these ideas out of my head.

I know I'm not alone in suspecting that Lord Leyton was for some reason, desperate to marry off his daughter. 

It doesn't seem likely, as young as she was, as beautiful as she was, as accustomed to wealth as she was, that she would be attracted to the much older, more or less provincial (and uncomely) Jorah - that she would give Jorah her token to wear in the tourney. (Did no-one else ask ?)  Nor does it seem likely that not only would she agree, but her father would agree the very night of the tourney that she would marry Jorah. (Were there no other suitors? That seems odd.. )

Her older sisters married a knight and a lesser lord (aka at best like Mormont) respectively. He had just been personally knighted by the king for bravery, was a lord "in his own right", and was competing in the Lannisport tourney. Jorah would have been a clear favorite for her hand in any stretch of it. Lynesse has basically nothing to say vis a vis her own marriage. Can we name one woman who refused to wed when ordered or asked to? Lady Dustin and Hornwood are the only two passable examples I can think of.

18 hours ago, bemused said:

No-one could have thought that the simpler life of the north would suit Lynesse. The wiki would have it that she and Jorah married for love, and it's certain that Jorah did, but I doubt the same was true for Lynesse.

 

 

 

18 hours ago, bemused said:

Lynesse is obviously in a position of some respect and power in the society she lives in. So to call her a whore is quite unreasonable... unless she had done something to invite the description before she married Jorah and left Oldtown. If "whore" was some thing that was whispered about her in Oldtown before she ever left, the captain's words would make more sense and So would Lord Leyton's actions in the whole affair of the tourney and her marriage.

She left her lord husband who was working to support her to be a literally figurative whore. She's the head concubine for a Prince of Pentos. She literally cannot be married. She wouldn't be one now, but she'd be labeled a gold digger or something similar.

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19 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Eh, Jorah is a complete moron for selling men into slavery, but a lot of the crapping up of the possible plans does fall on Lynesse's shoulders as well. The north is not the Reach and Bear Island is not Oldtown. I think the reason she didn't bother going back to Oldtown after she and Jorah left Bear Island is because she messed up very badly. 

Oh, I don't excuse Lynesse ... I've just come to have a bit more sympathy for her than I did at first reading. The lifestyle of the north would have been a terrible shock to her - even moreso , life on Bear Island, with it's history of being raided and fighting women. And if the marriage was agreed to by her father without any consideration for her comfort or feelings, it would have seemed to her a harsh life sentence.

Looking at it from her pov, whether she messed up or not, and even if Lord Leyton wanted to bring her home... why would she want to return, if her father was likely to use her all over again in a different scheme? (He could probably have secured an annulment for her under the circumstances.) She has more control over her own destiny in Lys.

And it seems that LL has come to think that she could be useful to her House in her current position as well. (Maybe she will.)

19 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

If the Hightowers have a glass candle, they can see all the way to the Wall for realsies and wouldn't need anyone there to inform them what's going on. 

I think they would still need someone present for important detail....

Quote

 

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

"We would have no more need of ravens."

"Only after battles." The archmaester peeled a sourleaf off a bale, shoved it in his mouth, and began to chew it. "Tell me all you told our Dornish sphinx. I know much of it and more, but some small parts may have escaped my notice."

... AFFC, Samwell V

 

This seems to me to imply that Marwyn (or Leyton, or whoever) can see what is going on, but not hear what is being said, or glean insights into a character's thinking without another glass candle wielder at the other end. I think Marwyn is missing more than "some small parts" without Sam's input... or the "small parts" mean a lot to proper understanding.

(More on Satin later - it's late, here and my eyes are drooping.)

But regarding "of Oldtown" / Hightower that comes straight from GRRM. I've cribbed the following quote from my earlier thread without doing a new search of the SSMs at this late hour, but it is still noted in the current wiki...  

Quote

Members of the house are considered loyal and stalwart. The Hightowers can be legitimately referred to as being either "of Hightower" or "of Oldtown.".. (source : The Arryns and the Hightower, May 1999. So Spake Martin. )

Of course we also find the form (whozit of / from such-and-such a place) used in it's more common way throughout the books,  but there is this exceptional use specific to Hightowers.

While I'm not sure about Orland of Oldtown (he isn't mentioned often) he would be in an advantageous position in KL as royal harper and bard.

Satin is identied as Satin of Oldtown and otherwise linked to Oldtown over and over and over again, as if it's being pounded into our heads.

Edited by bemused

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The simplest explanation would be that Lynesse's relationship with her family is troubled and her being married to Jorah was her version of running away from home and her father's version of banishment. Jorah may be a lord but from what he says about Bear Island they basically live at a subsistence level and it's literally on the other side of Westeros than her hometown which is a large, wealthy cosmopolitan city. 

As for the captain's attitude I think it is consistent with what most Westerosi would think about the course of her life and the fact that she left her husband and is basically a glorified mistress of a Lyse I. It might also be a result of her reputation in Oldtown. We do not know to what extent that attitude is shared with her family but I would expect that her father is pissed at her. Still she seems to be thought as having some influence in Lys. 

@bemused Baelor has children according to Tyrion. It is in his introduction to Oberyn where he remarks about the lives being snuffed by Baelor's fart.

I also find it a bit noteworthy that both Jorah and Barristan see in Dany echoes of women they were and conceivably still are in love with. 

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9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 Baelor has children according to Tyrion. It is in his introduction to Oberyn where he remarks about the lives being snuffed by Baelor's fart.

Baelor has no children shown on the Hightower family tree. 

Here's the quote you're thinking of, from when Oberyn visits Tyrion in his cell (ASOS, Tyrion X) ... 

Quote

 

"Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister's suitors. There was Little Lord Lazyeye, Squire Squishlips, one I named the Whale That Walks, that sort of thing. The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn't look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue."

Yes, Tyrion agreed silently. Baelor Hightower was no longer young, but he remained Lord Leyton's heir; wealthy, handsome, and a knight of splendid repute. Baelor Brightsmile, they called him now. Had Elia wed him in place of Rhaegar Targaryen, she might be in Oldtown with her children growing tall around her. He wondered how many lives had been snuffed out by that fart.

 

Tyrion means the children that Baelor and Elia might have had.. children that never came to be because Baelor's fart and Oberyn's mocking put an end to the proposed engagement.

9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

As for the captain's attitude I think it is consistent with what most Westerosi would think about the course of her life and the fact that she left her husband and is basically a glorified mistress

 I agree that it would be consistent with what most Westerosi would think if leaving her husband and becoming a concubine / mistress was the most scandalous thing about the couple.. but surely Jorah running from a death sentence for selling people into slavery would be a bit more notorious.

And given the well-known association between whores and sailors, sailors and whores, I think it's odd that a sea captain (not a septon, e.g.) should call her one in such a denigrating way.... As an example, from ADWD, The Ugly Little Girl... 

Quote

She saw sailors on the prowl for whores, and whores on the prowl for sailors.

 I would think the captain should be a bit more sanguine about it.

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